I think there's a limit though to how useful any player really is if he relies too much on good linemates and PP time. I feel like that's what we saw with Turris... has the basic skills package, and if you just spoonfeed him icetime in his favorite role at center with good wingers, he'll produce reasonably well. But the moment you take him out of that spot, he's basically useless. If that's where Tolvanen is headed --- a winger who pops 20-25 goals if you keep him in the 2nd line with PP time... then he's ultimately pretty interchangeable with a lot of players you can scoop up from the UFA market anytime you really want one.I think it’s Preds or bust for Tolvanen. I feel his trade value has greatly diminished.
But remember, he’s never had a real chance in the NHL with NHL caliber line-mates and PP time with the best NHL teammates.
I really wasn’t talking about giving him a gift position. Just let’s see how he plays with NHL players which Preds have really not done. And Preds have to be willing to devote some quality ice time to him if he earns a look. Everybody says he did what was asked of him in Milwaukee; learn some defense. Ok, now what? He’s not going to be an NHLer on the 4th line getting 8 minutes a game and no PP time.I think there's a limit though to how useful any player really is if he relies too much on good linemates and PP time. I feel like that's what we saw with Turris... has the basic skills package, and if you just spoonfeed him icetime in his favorite role at center with good wingers, he'll produce reasonably well. But the moment you take him out of that spot, he's basically useless. If that's where Tolvanen is headed --- a winger who pops 20-25 goals if you keep him in the 2nd line with PP time... then he's ultimately pretty interchangeable with a lot of players you can scoop up from the UFA market anytime you really want one.
Not saying that's where Tolvanen is headed. Just I would like it a whole lot more if it was more a case of him undeniably forcing his way into our plans rather than us gifting him a spot just because we don't happen to have anybody else at hand.
But yeah, I don't think there's any real likelihood of getting meaningful trade value out of him at this point. He's waiver exempt for 2 more years, so if that's how long it takes for him to become a force in Milwaukee and make himself Undeniable... then let it take 2 more years. We can afford to wait at this point.
Isn't that what you had in Smith? I mean he basically played wing and some PP and people were ok with bringing him back.I think there's a limit though to how useful any player really is if he relies too much on good linemates and PP time. I feel like that's what we saw with Turris... has the basic skills package, and if you just spoonfeed him icetime in his favorite role at center with good wingers, he'll produce reasonably well. But the moment you take him out of that spot, he's basically useless. If that's where Tolvanen is headed --- a winger who pops 20-25 goals if you keep him in the 2nd line with PP time... then he's ultimately pretty interchangeable with a lot of players you can scoop up from the UFA market anytime you really want one.
Not saying that's where Tolvanen is headed. Just I would like it a whole lot more if it was more a case of him undeniably forcing his way into our plans rather than us gifting him a spot just because we don't happen to have anybody else at hand.
But yeah, I don't think there's any real likelihood of getting meaningful trade value out of him at this point. He's waiver exempt for 2 more years, so if that's how long it takes for him to become a force in Milwaukee and make himself Undeniable... then let it take 2 more years. We can afford to wait at this point.
I thought Smith played really well when he wasn't scoring. I thought he earned his icetime and opportunity, that it wasn't just gifted to him.Isn't that what you had in Smith? I mean he basically played wing and some PP and people were ok with bringing him back.
My point is though is that Smith didn't really do anything but score goals and play on the PP. He was never a guy you would use on a shut down line or the PK.I thought Smith played really well when he wasn't scoring. I thought he earned his icetime and opportunity, that it wasn't just gifted to him.
I was also OK with letting him go, because he's interchangeable.
Either way, it would be a win for us if Tolvanen could turn out to be as good as Smith.
I would have had no qualms using him on a shut-down line or the PK. He was a solid two-way player and one of our hardest workers and most physical players (not saying much for our team).My point is though is that Smith didn't really do anything but score goals and play on the PP. He was never a guy you would use on a shut down line or the PK.
So then why didn't 3 NHL coaches and various other assistant coaches then?I would have had no qualms using him on a shut-down line or the PK. He was a solid two-way player and one of our hardest workers and most physical players (not saying much for our team).
We had a surfeit of other capable PK players, obviously. Whether or not he played on a "shut-down" line could be debated. He played with Bonino all last season, after all.So then why didn't 3 NHL coaches and various other assistant coaches then?
I think it’s Preds or bust for Tolvanen. I feel his trade value has greatly diminished.
But remember, he’s never had a real chance in the NHL with NHL caliber line-mates and PP time with the best NHL teammates.
No. To #1. Peak? If it is his peak, it’s not good enough for line 2 and PP 2.Is 20 goals good on the 2nd line with pp2 minutes? Is this his peak?
To go further on that. We don’t have a single forward in the top 90 of time on ice per game played. Grandlund was top and he ranked 93rd.
To go further on that. We don’t have a single forward in the top 90 of time on ice per game played. Grandlund was top and he ranked 93rd.
Some of that though probably had to do with that period where he was trying to send them a message, you had guys like Joey playing on the 4th line. Not to mention things got flipped on our head with us because the only line playing worth a damn was Bonino's line, which means they were getting more ice time than most 3rds would get.Hynes played our top players less than Lavi did I believe - especially Forsberg. Which is crazy IMO.
This is exactly what happened. And he boosted Turris and especially Granlund correspondingly. He was flailing a little bit, and then when Granlund actually produced, he couldn't very well go back. Until the play-ins, anyway. But I don't think it necessarily means very much.Some of that though probably had to do with that period where he was trying to send them a message, you had guys like Joey playing on the 4th line. Not to mention things got flipped on our head with us because the only line playing worth a damn was Bonino's line, which means they were getting more ice time than most 3rds would get.
Some of that though probably had to do with that period where he was trying to send them a message, you had guys like Joey playing on the 4th line. Not to mention things got flipped on our head with us because the only line playing worth a damn was Bonino's line, which means they were getting more ice time than most 3rds would get.
Have to agree here I mean even thinking back to the Trotz years he was limited by the talent Poile gave him. It is pretty clear Trotz can coach offensive talent and we used to beat him up about ruining Legwand and repressing forwards who would not play both ways.The reason it always looks the same is Poile, that’s his philosophy and he stresses to the coaches
I'd disagree. Compared to the ice time they get, they actually on par. RyJo, 63rd in points for centers, 63rd in ice time. Forsberg, 19th in points for left wingers, 27th in ice time, Arvidsson 40th in ice time, 49th in points, 40thin in ice time.Preds top players are the best they have but I wouldn’t call them top players; more like medium players. Or, at least, they perform like medium players. (Forwards, not Dmen).