Elks: Edmonton Eskimo Thread: 2018 Edition

[bone]

The ratio has nothing to do with declining attendance.

One could tie that to poorer product making it less interesting, but as a person that's being going to most of the games for 20+ years, where the product has suffered is that there are way too many breaks in play. Many of them prolonged for no good reason. The quality of television coverage/competition also makes it tougher to fill the stands as you can watch the game and browse other events at the same time. Particularly when the weather isn't nice it's harder to convince people to go out.

How to correct, unfortunately, I don't know, I'm not a marketing expert as the president claims to be, but they do need to try more creative things, and create better opportunities for people to get young fans into the stands to remind them that live sports are fun and the CFL can be a good product.

 

[MoneyGuy]

Since-forever season ticket holder here. One of the reasons I love the CFL is the Canadian content. I don't want to support a league of almost all American players. I might as well just follow the NFL in that case.

 

[bone]

Sure it does. You have less talent in the league which equals less skilled league, which equals less interest.

Does anyone actually as a fan give two ****s about what nation a guy is from when they are cheering? So then why not put the best product out that you can?

I think the thing is though most of the flashy positions that casual football observers see are typically the best Americans available anyways (QBs, WRs, RBs, Kick Returners, Defensive Ends, DBs (non-safety)), etc.

Really we are only talking about 3 or 4 Nationals per unit which is only 25-33% of the group. And often it's the players who occupy the middle of the field with much less fanfare unless teams can find a star Canadian at a ratio breaking position.

When that happens fans fall in love with those players. Without ratio rules they probably don't get the reps to become that star ratio breaker.

Yes, special teams suffer a bit as the Canadians tend to load up on those units, but that probably adds to entertainment as mistakes on special teams are often game changers.

 

[joestevens29]

I think the things is though most of the flashy positions that casual football observers see are typically the best Americans available anyways (QBs, WRs, RBs, Kick Returners, Defensive Ends, DBs (non-safety)), etc. Really we are only talking about 3 or 4 Nationals per unit which is only 25-33% of the group. And often it's the players who occupy the middle of the field with much less fanfare unless teams can find a star Canadian at a ratio breaking position. When that happens fans fall in love with those players. Without ratio rules they probably don't get the reps to become that star ratio breaker.

Yes, special teams suffer a bit as the Canadians tend to load up on those units, but that probably adds to entertainment as mistakes on special teams are often game changers.

I'm not exactly a fan of things that are due to mis matches. Kinda like the World's right now. Incompetence shouldn't be where entertainment value is coming from, especially a part that is a smaller part of the game such as special teams.

 

[bone]

I'm not exactly a fan of things that are due to mis matches. Kinda like the World's right now. Incompetence shouldn't be where entertainment value is coming from, especially a part that is a smaller part of the game such as special teams.

Both teams have the same rules and same talent pool to draw from, so I'm not sure where this mismatch you refer to is happening in the CFL.

 

[rboomercat90]

One could tie that to poorer product making it less interesting, but as a person that's being going to most of the games for 20+ years, where the product has suffered is that there are way too many breaks in play. Many of them prolonged for no good reason. The quality of television coverage/competition also makes it tougher to fill the stands as you can watch the game and browse other events at the same time. Particularly when the weather isn't nice it's harder to convince people to go out.

How to correct, unfortunately, I don't know, I'm not a marketing expert as the president claims to be, but they do need to try more creative things, and create better opportunities for people to get young fans into the stands to remind them that live sports are fun and the CFL can be a good product.

Great post.

IMO, there are many reasons for the decline in attendance but the biggest reason (and it’s a long, long drop to number two) was the leagues decision to lift the tv blackouts for home games. What it’s done is give people a reason not to go to the games when they can watch them in the comfort of their own home. Tv ratings for CFL games have never been higher so people are still interested in the league, just not going and seeing it live. Twenty years ago if you wanted to see the Eskimos play at home you had to go to the game. Fans have shown they prefer to watch at home and the league, in that time, has lost a generation of live fans. Like you said, I don’t know how you get them back. I don’t think you can put the genie back in the bottle and black out the home games so I don’t know what the answer is either.

 

[joestevens29]

Both teams have the same rules and same talent pool to draw from, so I'm not sure where this mismatch you refer to is happening in the CFL.

More about just having lessor incompetent players out there that are resulting in game changers. Get more skilled guys out there.

 

[bone]

More about just having lessor incompetent players out there that are resulting in game changers. Get more skilled guys out there.

Then I'd argue more skilled special teamers would lead to NFL style special teams where punts are more likely time to jump ahead of the queue to get your piss break.

My main point though is that the ratio actually has just a marginal impact on the bulk of the game (i.e one team on offense and the other team on defense) as Canadians only account for about 30% of the starters. Could they drop one or two, possibly, but I actually don't think there would be as big an impact as some think.

Truly the biggest hinderances to the league, in my opinion is game length, frequency of breaks (some of them lengthy) and officiating often has no clue from one play to the other what is actually happening on the field.

Furthermore, the biggest hinderance to getting the best skilled players from the US, is money and the rules about option years and such. If someone has even one bit of chance to get some form of contract from the NFL, they will see much more money than they would from the CFL and if they come to the CFL, our rules make it tough for first timers to go back . That won't change because of a ratio rule except marginally as some of the dollars from Canadians would possibly go to Americans.

 

[rboomercat90]

Sure it does. You have less talent in the league which equals less skilled league, which equals less interest.

Does anyone actually as a fan give two ****s about what nation a guy is from when they are cheering? So then why not put the best product out that you can?

The ratio was the same in the 80’s when there were over 40,000 in attendance every game. The ratio isn’t the problem. If you have a good quarterback you can have a good team. If you don’t, you can’t. The quarterbacks in this league, as a rule, aren’t Canadian. Neither are most of the skilled position players, so how does that affect the talent?

Like I posted above, there are many reasons for the drop in attendance. I believe the biggest reason is the televised home games. Others like poor management and the rise of the NFL are others. I just have a hard time believing that a few mandated Canadians on the field is very high on the list of real reasons.

 

[I am the Liquor]

Great post.

IMO, there are many reasons for the decline in attendance but the biggest reason (and it’s a long, long drop to number two) was the leagues decision to lift the tv blackouts for home games. What it’s done is give people a reason not to go to the games when they can watch them in the comfort of their own home. Tv ratings for CFL games have never been higher so people are still interested in the league, just not going and seeing it live. Twenty years ago if you wanted to see the Eskimos play at home you had to go to the game. Fans have shown they prefer to watch at home and the league, in that time, has lost a generation of live fans. Like you said, I don’t know how you get them back. I don’t think you can put the genie back in the bottle and black out the home games so I don’t know what the answer is either.

You could say that about the hockey but people still go. There is a waiting list. People don't go to football games anymore because the product blows. Having some rule that dictates inferior players be kept on rosters because of their birth country certainly isn't helping.

 

[rboomercat90]

You could say that about the hockey but people still go. There is a waiting list. People don't go to football games anymore because the product blows. Having some rule that dictates inferior players be kept on rosters because of their birth country certainly isn't helping.

Maybe people just don’t like going to football games in general anymore or live sporting events period. I’d say Oilers withstanding but there were plenty of empty seats in the building last year. I was just watching Primetime Sports this afternoon and they were talking about how attendance and actual bums in the seats is down across the board in all leagues including the NFL. People prefer watching their sports on a screen now.

Like I said earlier, the Eskimos drew over 40,000 a game through most of the eighties with the same ratio that’s in place now, it wasn’t an issue.

The CFL certainly has its issues but they aren’t caused by having some Canadians on the roster. Things won’t turn rosy if they’re eliminated and replaced by an all-American roster. Sounds to me like you don’t like the CFL because it’s not the NFL. It still won’t be the NFL without Canadians, just a watered down version. Funny enough that those watered down versions have failed a few times in the US and also in Europe but the CFL and it’s uniqueness has somehow managed to survive,

 

[Stoneman89]

Glad they've toned down the coaches challenge - all credit to the commish on that and other things for listening to the fans. Talk about slowing a game down to a crawl.

 

[I am the Liquor]

Maybe people just don’t like going to football games in general anymore or live sporting events period. I’d say Oilers withstanding but there were plenty of empty seats in the building last year. I was just watching Primetime Sports this afternoon and they were talking about how attendance and actual bums in the seats is down across the board in all leagues including the NFL. People prefer watching their sports on a screen now.

Like I said earlier, the Eskimos drew over 40,000 a game through most of the eighties with the same ratio that’s in place now, it wasn’t an issue.

The CFL certainly has its issues but they aren’t caused by having some Canadians on the roster. Things won’t turn rosy if they’re eliminated and replaced by an all-American roster. Sounds to me like you don’t like the CFL because it’s not the NFL. It still won’t be the NFL without Canadians, just a watered down version. Funny enough that those watered down versions have failed a few times in the US and also in Europe but the CFL and it’s uniqueness has somehow managed to survive,

The quality is nowhere near what it was back in those days. And there was continuity of the roster. Not like now. The game is in trouble. Are there other bigger issues? You bet. That doesn't mean we should be ignoring other, smaller issues. If you can make it better then that is what you should do. Period.

 

[rboomercat90]

The quality is nowhere near what it was back in those days. And there was continuity of the roster. Not like now. The game is in trouble. Are there other bigger issues? You bet. That doesn't mean we should be ignoring other, smaller issues. If you can make it better then that is what you should do. Period.

Just my opinion but I don’t think replacing the Canadians makes the product any better. Like I said earlier, I found the games more entertaining last year than I have in a long time. I would have agreed with you a couple years ago but last season was great. The product is just fine because the league finally found a bunch of good quarterbacks. I get why you’d think otherwise if you’d already tuned out and didn’t watch much last year as the games were unwatchable for a while. In any event I guess we’ll just agree to disagree.

 

[guymez]

Just my opinion but I don’t think replacing the Canadians makes the product any better. Like I said earlier, I found the games more entertaining last year than I have in a long time. I would have agreed with you a couple years ago but last season was great. The product is just fine because the league finally found a bunch of good quarterbacks. I get why you’d think otherwise if you’d already tuned out and didn’t watch much last year as the games were unwatchable for a while. In any event I guess we’ll just agree to disagree.

I think the CFL is suffering from a lack of credibility. Thats the real reason for the poor attendance IMO.
The League has suffered from very poor optics (constant ownership issues....toothless Comissioners...poorly enforced League rulings...a very weak CBA for the players) for a long time now. The best thing that happened to the CFL was when Rogers took away the NHL coverage from TSN. That forced TSN to invest more in their other content and the CFL was at or near the top of their list.
Without out TSN the CFL would likely cease to exist.

Also...for the reasons I stated....regional blackouts would diminish TSN's numbers and is IMO a non starter.
In any event blaming blackouts as THE reason for poor attendance doesnt make a lot of sense to me.
In this day and age when a sports fan can watch anything they want reducing the amount of CFL coverage and exposure seems counter productive.

 

[Stoneman89]

I think the CFL is suffering from a lack of credibility. Thats the real reason for the poor attendance IMO.
The League has suffered from very poor optics (constant ownership issues....toothless Comissioners...poorly enforced League rulings...a very weak CBA for the players) for a long time now. The best thing that happened to the CFL was when Rogers took away the NHL coverage from TSN. That forced TSN to invest more in their other content and the CFL was at or near the top of their list.
Without out TSN the CFL would likely cease to exist.

Also...for the reasons I stated....regional blackouts would diminish TSN's numbers and is IMO a non starter.
In any event blaming blackouts as THE reason for poor attendance doesnt make a lot of sense to me.
In this day and age when a sports fan can watch anything they want reducing the amount of CFL coverage and exposure seems counter productive.

Good post. I don't think there is any one reason as to where the CFL has got themselves today.

A thing lack of proper leadership from the top has been key. It has the trickle down effect in so many other areas that are affected. I like Ambosie and his hands on approach and willingness to listen to fans and others that help sustain this league. Lots of work to be done for sure. I think adding another team to balance things out will also help add some credibility, what with having more competition, and an even conference setting.

Keeping Canadians in the game remains a core of this league. It provides an opportunity for interest at the grassroots level to sustain interest, as a lot of guys would never play after college, and others that attain NFL status would likely never have interest in the first place. I guess you could say the league "hides these guys" in the mostly least skill positions, but it still provides the opportunity. A bit of a challenge for GM's that their NFL counterparts don't have to deal with, and can seem unfair to some worthy American players, but part of what makes it unique. I hope they never change it.

 

[joestevens29]

Maybe people just don’t like going to football games in general anymore or live sporting events period. I’d say Oilers withstanding but there were plenty of empty seats in the building last year. I was just watching Primetime Sports this afternoon and they were talking about how attendance and actual bums in the seats is down across the board in all leagues including the NFL. People prefer watching their sports on a screen now.

Like I said earlier, the Eskimos drew over 40,000 a game through most of the eighties with the same ratio that’s in place now, it wasn’t an issue.

The CFL certainly has its issues but they aren’t caused by having some Canadians on the roster. Things won’t turn rosy if they’re eliminated and replaced by an all-American roster. Sounds to me like you don’t like the CFL because it’s not the NFL. It still won’t be the NFL without Canadians, just a watered down version. Funny enough that those watered down versions have failed a few times in the US and also in Europe but the CFL and it’s uniqueness has somehow managed to survive,

So because something worked 40 years ago it should continue to work today? I'm not for changing it to NFL rules, but really don't think it matters who is playing on the field people are cheering whether they are Canadian or American. Heck outside of the diehards can anyone actually identify from the stands who is American who is Canadian? I'm also not suggesting the outright cancellation of the ratio, but it's time to look at tweaking it.

On a different note what are people's thoughts on Manziel not getting the special one year contract?

I agree with Gregor that we shouldn't make the rule for one guy, but then I do agree with Connor that we should have one year deals so that we can potentially lure some higher end guys.

I also didn't agree with the guys that Manziel wouldn't be a draw. The guy is too much of a freak show not to draw fans in. I mean I don't think it would last as I don't think he's really in shape to play pro ball, but I bet those first bunch of games there would be a following.

 

[Stoneman89]

Manziel definately would be a draw, and for the reasons you stated. High profile, freak show type of status. I would be much more likely to go to a game involving him than not. But after a turn around the league, unless he turned into something special, that allure would fade away.

 

[bone]

So because something worked 40 years ago it should continue to work today? I'm not for changing it to NFL rules, but really don't think it matters who is playing on the field people are cheering whether they are Canadian or American. Heck outside of the diehards can anyone actually identify from the stands who is American who is Canadian? I'm also not suggesting the outright cancellation of the ratio, but it's time to look at tweaking it.

On a different note what are people's thoughts on Manziel not getting the special one year contract?

I agree with Gregor that we shouldn't make the rule for one guy, but then I do agree with Connor that we should have one year deals so that we can potentially lure some higher end guys.

I also didn't agree with the guys that Manziel wouldn't be a draw. The guy is too much of a freak show not to draw fans in. I mean I don't think it would last as I don't think he's really in shape to play pro ball, but I bet those first bunch of games there would be a following.

Agree on both counts. We shouldn't make an exception for any individual, with the rules set up as they are at this time. However, it's time to reconsider the rule as we may be able to lure players with the one year contract that wouldn't come with the two year rule. Perhaps once they came here, they'd be willing to stick around.

Maybe it's not across the board for all contracts as that would stimulate even greater turnover, but perhaps the rules could be adjusted to allow teams to use one exception per year where a team can sign a first timer to a one-year contract.

A great example right now would be Justin Senior. He doesn't have a contract but with the past interest in the NFL, he probably doesn't want to commit to two full years at what may be his peak interest-wise by the NFL. But perhaps a one-year increasing his stock would be very interesting for him.

 

[joestevens29]

Could they not keep two year deals, but allow guys the option to leave after year one? But if they return they have to comeback to their original team?

 

[rboomercat90]

I think the CFL is suffering from a lack of credibility. Thats the real reason for the poor attendance IMO.
The League has suffered from very poor optics (constant ownership issues....toothless Comissioners...poorly enforced League rulings...a very weak CBA for the players) for a long time now. The best thing that happened to the CFL was when Rogers took away the NHL coverage from TSN. That forced TSN to invest more in their other content and the CFL was at or near the top of their list.
Without out TSN the CFL would likely cease to exist.

Also...for the reasons I stated....regional blackouts would diminish TSN's numbers and is IMO a non starter.
In any event blaming blackouts as THE reason for poor attendance doesnt make a lot of sense to me.
In this day and age when a sports fan can watch anything they want reducing the amount of CFL coverage and exposure seems counter productive.

I agree with everything here.

My point about the blackouts was that if fans wanted to see the Eskimo home games during that period they had to go to the games. Going to the games was a lifestyle choice. If you were a fan, you went. It was second nature. When the blackouts were lifted it gave people a second option to watch the games. They had a choice of watching at home where the weather was always nice and there probably weren’t as many drunks. As time went on and people started watching at home more often, it also became a lifestyle choice. Speaking for myself, it never even occurs to me to go to a game anymore. I suspect I’m not the only one.

 

[guymez]

I agree with everything here.

My point about the blackouts was that if fans wanted to see the Eskimo home games during that period they had to go to the games. Going to the games was a lifestyle choice. If you were a fan, you went. It was second nature. When the blackouts were lifted it gave people a second option to watch the games. They had a choice of watching at home where the weather was always nice and there probably weren’t as many drunks. As time went on and people started watching at home more often, it also became a lifestyle choice. Speaking for myself, it never even occurs to me to go to a game anymore. I suspect I’m not the only one.

The thing is...thats the world we live in now. The period you are talking about doesnt exist anymore which in some ways is quite unfortunate but it is what it is.
Everything is available from your home so in order for us to get off our ass and go to an event it has to be a worthwhile event. It has to be an event that can stand out from everything thats available from sitting on our sofa.
If the CFL in game experience doesn't qualify as a worthwhile event then that speaks volumes about the League and its product.
I think what this really says is that if the CFL wasnt an inferior product the blackouts wouldn't be perceived as an issue.

 

[guymez]

Good post. I don't think there is any one reason as to where the CFL has got themselves today.

A thing lack of proper leadership from the top has been key. It has the trickle down effect in so many other areas that are affected. I like Ambosie and his hands on approach and willingness to listen to fans and others that help sustain this league. Lots of work to be done for sure. I think adding another team to balance things out will also help add some credibility, what with having more competition, and an even conference setting.

Keeping Canadians in the game remains a core of this league. It provides an opportunity for interest at the grassroots level to sustain interest, as a lot of guys would never play after college, and others that attain NFL status would likely never have interest in the first place. I guess you could say the league "hides these guys" in the mostly least skill positions, but it still provides the opportunity. A bit of a challenge for GM's that their NFL counterparts don't have to deal with, and can seem unfair to some worthy American players, but part of what makes it unique. I hope they never change it.

I agree completely especially regarding the Canadian content.

For me (like you so perfectly put it) the Canadian content rule is part of what makes the CFL so unique.
The CFL has a unique connection with Canadian Universities and Canadian minor League Football (the grassroots as you put it) because of the Canadian content.

So I am with you....I hope it never changes.

That said the CFL really has to evolve and create more interest. IMO they need to reconnect with the younger fan base and cultivate a relationship with these young fans.
They also have to make the game experience more interesting and not by bringing in bands.
The players need to be more involved...the League needs to make them more accessible.
Perhaps post game meet and greets or something along those lines.
Just throwing stuff out there.

 

[rboomercat90]

I agree completely especially regarding the Canadian content.

For me (like you so perfectly put it) the Canadian content rule is part of what makes the CFL so unique.
The CFL has a unique connection with Canadian Universities and Canadian minor League Football (the grassroots as you put it) because of the Canadian content.

So I am with you....I hope it never changes.

That said the CFL really has to evolve and create more interest. IMO they need to reconnect with the younger fan base and cultivate a relationship with these young fans.
They also have to make the game experience more interesting and not by bringing in bands.
The players need to be more involved...the League needs to make them more accessible.
Perhaps post game meet and greets or something along those lines.
Just throwing stuff out there.

Your last paragraph really stands out to me. The Eskimos used to do more stuff like this but it seemed to change during the Hervey/Jones era starting with Jones cancelling the K-Days event with the kids and continuing with Maas refusing to wear the live microphone during a game. These guys don’t seem to get that they need to do more.

 

[guymez]

Your last paragraph really stands out to me. The Eskimos used to do more stuff like this but it seemed to change during the Hervey/Jones era starting with Jones cancelling the K-Days event with the kids and continuing with Maas refusing to wear the live microphone during a game. These guys don’t seem to get that they need to do more.

Yeah...I completely agree.

I am not sure what vintage you are but I remember as kid in the 70's I would board a bus in my neighborhood and it would be filled with kids going to an Eskimo game to sit in the knothole gang section. Buses would come from all over the city and we could even get there early and stand close to the players in warmup...it was fantastic...a real event. I have been a fan ever since.

I have no idea what the team is doing these days but it clearly isnt enough. The CFL has an opportunity to do something no other League can or will do...thats creating opportunities for fan/player interaction.
It would be so unique because there is no other opportunity for a fan (in any other League) to connect with players on a consistent basis. That kind of thing really impacts kids.
Seems like a no brainer to me.