Proposal: Edm vs Mtl

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Goldenhands

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I guarantee not all those prospects and picks pan out.
All those prospects will pan out, its only a matter of how good they will be... 2nd rd pick we dont know, but Timmins can find gems in any rounds, thats why that 2nd pick is more valuable to us than to you since your scouting staff stinks big time...
 

The Moose is Loose

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Flames fan here. Loathe the Oilers. RNH is a fantastic hockey player. He's a good defensive player who I think will score 70 points in the league at some point. Not a fan of Nurse. Good skater, tough as nails, brutal defensively. Oilers fans saying he's better than Klefbom are dumb as a fence post. Klefbom is twice the player.
He's far from brutal defensively, but he has had some tough growing pains when he's been tasked with being our #1D at 22-23 years old. Agreed though Klefbom has been impressive
 

The Moose is Loose

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All those prospects will pan out, its only a matter of how good they will be... 2nd rd pick we dont know, but Timmins can find gems in any rounds, thats why that 2nd pick is more valuable to us than to you since your scouting staff stinks big time...
You have no idea how it'll all play out, prospects are never a sure thing. Especially 2nd round picks and beyond
 

Just Linda

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Feb 24, 2018
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Nurse = Young top 4 LD.

VS.

Suzuki = Projects as a 2C/ Top 6 RHSRW
Primeau = Projects as a strong starting goaltender
Habs 1st = Middle first rounder usually provide for top 6 forwards, top pairing defensemen, and strong starting goaltenders

That's a short-term win for Montreal, but a long term disaster for Montreal if all 3 players/picks pan out. Right-handed players carry more value as well.
So it's a win for Edmonton in the grand scheme of things as it alleviates their cap hell issues for now too.

RNH = Mid-twenties offensive 2C

VS.

Poehling = Projects as a strong two-way 2C, plays heavy.
Brook = Projects as a Top 4 RHSRD
Habs 2nd = Middle 2nd rounder (Usually provides for middle 6 forwards, bottom 4 defensemen, potential starting goalies)

Once again, short-term win for Montreal, long term disaster as they forgo some of their top prospects.
Also a win for Edmonton in the long run.

Hold your horses on Primeau for sure. Looks great, looks consistent but many goalies have done what he does and not panned out
 

xNogaitx

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I guarantee not all those prospects and picks pan out.

For sure. But even if half of those do pan out. It still remains that Montreal would be sacrificing half of their top 5 prospects for either a guy with two more years until free agency, or a top 4 LD that will get a huge pay raise after next season.

In a cap world, ELC years come at a premium.

Montreal is not 1 player away from contention, they shouldn't be packaging their top prospects away for short-term fixes.
 

Eastern Shores

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Jun 20, 2018
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Poor trade from Edmonton's point of View. They need to continue to BUILD their defense and RNH fills a larger need for the Oilers than he does in Montreal. Trading for futures does nothing for the Oilers at this stage.

Montreal is already one of the youngest teams in the league and yet has spots awaiting these young prospects once they are ready. Nuge and/or Nurse move then forward today but not enough to advance significantly in the playoffs nor to the ultimate goal ... another Stanley Cup(s) which the prospects may well actually help to deliver.

So Habs say thank you but no thanks.
 

Brian McDavid

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Cheap shot at Habs fans just because they know what they have in their hands regarding their kids... I could say the same thing about Oilers fans, they obviously have no clue about our prospects... Just watch them develop, you will see why those proposals are both ridiculous...

Also that pejorative way to denigrate a fan base is getting old, actually Oilers fans are the ones looking bad in this thread, they just underrate our top prospects big time while overrating their own players...
L
 
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Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
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So clip means P/60 now? Clip means PPG- this is known.

Please tell me how PPG works as a clip if one player averages more ice-time per game than another player? Its not useful because you can't benchmark that pace.

wait wait wait, but you said "Both Tatar and Domi produce at a higher clip than RNH. When you talk about ES, add Shaw, Danault, Byron, Gallagher and Drouin to that list. What are you on about?".
You said Tatar and Domi produce more, even without the ES. So basically, you just don't want to admit you were wrong about how much Domi and Tatar are producing.
Montreal scores more with a better PP? Really no ****. But they need good players to score more on the PP.

How was I wrong? I linked the site I used in this thread. Its easily accessible. Go dig through for yourself:

Natural Stat Trick

And hey, you want to lend Montreal a McDavid for their PP, then fine. But if you think its just "good" players that help PPs and not "elite" ones, then you're nuts. Coaching obviously plays a role too, but name me a good PP team and I'll point out the elite engine of that unit.

RNH is not elite.

All I'm saying is RNH would be the best center (and forward really) for Montreal. You can't use actual stats to disagree, so you divert your attention to stuff like TOI (RNH should be punished for being leaned on heavily for PK apparently), and ES (RNH should be punished for being a good PP player). You're reaching to make it seem otherwise.

TIL TOI, ES vs PP, Corsi, xGF, CoT, etc. are suddenly made up and not heavily researched outputs of data that the NHL tracks. Wow.

Listen, you want to decide player quality based on boxscores, go ahead, but I like digging deeper and watching hockey.

But just because you don't understand a stat, doesn't mean its not an "actual stat". That's not how statistics works.

I'm not sure why a player that plays more will probably produce more than a player that plays less is a difficult concept. Or that ES and PP are two different things (especially since RNH has played less than ten minutes all season on the PP without McDavid and less than 3 minutes without either McDavid or Draisaitl).

Montreal is not going to move valuable futures for someone that isn't a clear upgrade on what they have. We're not talking about McDavid or even Draisaitl here.

There are 3 players on the Oilers that Montreal would likely dig deep into their prospect pool for. McDavid, Draisaitl and Klefbom. But Edmonton would be insane to move those guys and other teams would probably beat any offer Montreal had.

But RNH? Nurse? Nah.
 
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Goldenhands

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You have no idea how it'll all play out, prospects are never a sure thing. Especially 2nd round picks and beyond
Well, you watch them play, watch them progress and then you can have a good idea about their projections... Brook is not only one of the most productive defensemen in the CHL, but he is easily one of the most complete and well balanced defensemen out there and can play both sides... Poehling, did you watch the last WJC? Plays an heavy 200 ft game, MVP of the tournament... Primeau is everything you want from a modern goalkeeper, great size, great skills, solid technically and very high compete level... Suzuki has things to work on and will probably start the next season in the AHL, but you cant deny his skills level, he is easily one of the most purely skilled fowards in the CHL and his flaws are pretty workable and correctable since the IQ is quite there... All he needs is getting Pro level experience, getting stronger and a bit faster...
 

The Moose is Loose

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Well, you watch them play, watch them progress and then you can have a good idea about their projections... Brook is not only one of the most productive defensemen in the CHL, but he is easily one of the most complete and well balanced defensemen out there and can play both sides... Poehling, did you watch the last WJC? Plays an heavy 200 ft game, MVP of the tournament... Primeau is everything you want from a modern goalkeeper, great size, great skills, solid technically and very high compete level... Suzuki has things to work on and will probably start the next season in the AHL, but you cant deny his skills level, he is easily one of the most purely skilled fowards in the CHL and his flaws are pretty workable and correctable since the IQ is quite there... All he needs is getting Pro level experience, getting stronger and a bit faster...
I am VERY confident that not all 4 will reach the level that their homer fan base projects them to reach. Every fan does it, and every time many prospects underwhelm. As of now, they are question marks. Not moving our young and guaranteed 1b center, and 2/3 defenseman for them.
 

Hockey Stick

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I would say no from Montreal, not because of value or whatever, which I'm obviously going to be biased about, but mainly because those pieces wouldn't make the Habs cup favourites by any means. Unless they're a serious threat to win a cup, they should hold on to those young potential studs and see what they can pan in to
 

Fourier

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That's not true at all about Brooks, he'd be the Oilers 2nd best D prospect, ahead of Bear and Jones. I know Persson quite well as a prospect. Also, Poehling has more value than McCloud, not sure how they become comparable for you.

I doubt very much RNH can fetch a Nurse, that value seems way off. Nurse seems underrated by much of the Oilers fan base.

But yes, I've never said RNH has less value than the alternative, only external and internal values.
None of these defensemen were high end prospects at their draft aside from Bouchard. Brook was viewed as a solid two way guy who has taken a significant step forward offensively. But with the exception of some elite guys how a defenseman's game will translate to the NHL is more unpredictable than it might be for forwards. Because of this I place a premium on guys who are closer tp making it.

Bear like Brook was one of the younger guys in his draft year. As a 19 year old he won the WHL defenseman of the year so he far exceeded his draft position. He also had a very strong first year as a pro that included an impressive stint with the big club. Then this offseason he played well enough that most of us felt he had made the team out of camp.

Player Discussion - Ethan Bear : AHL or NHL?

He has been hurt for a good part of the year in Bak but of late has been playing excellent two way hockey in the AHL.

Jones' progress has been significant as well. He was viewed more of a two way defender than Bear who has significant offensive skills. But this year he added a lot of offense to his game. He sits in the top 20 in ppg in the AHL amongst defensemen. He and Bear have both played top pairing for the Condors, a team that has won 15 straight games. Jones also showed extremely well up with the Oilers this year. I doubt many Oiler fans who follow these guys would trade either Jones or Bear for Brook because they are both much closer to making a difference at the level that counts the most.

Persson vs Brook is probably more personal choice. Persson came out of no where but has really found his game in the SHL. As a prospect he is much closer to being an NHL contributor and his skill set is one that the Oilers really need. So for the Oilers all three would be ahead of Brook as a defensive prospects.

As to Poehling vs McLeod, I agree that Poehling has more value. But the Oilers 2nd right now vs the Canadiens 2nd closes much of the gap and Nuge over Gallagher also closes the gap so the differences in the proposal are not so great. In both cases it is solid but not elite prospects for players who have shown that they could have significant impact at the NHL level.

As for RNH getting Nurse, there is no chance I'd trade Nuge for Nurse straight up. This is not about undervaluing Nurse or over valuing Nuge it is about what players actually bring to the table.
 

Goldenhands

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I am VERY confident that not all 4 will reach the level that their homer fan base projects them to reach. Every fan does it, and every time many prospects underwhelm. As of now, they are question marks. Not moving our young and guaranteed 1b center, and 2/3 defenseman for them.

Unproved would be the word... Its all about projections and if you think we are overrating our kids, thats your opinion, all I can tell you is watch and see...
 
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