Series Discussion: ECQF: Capitals vs. Leafs pt2 (Caps Win 4-2) (Leafs fans READ POST #1)

[CapitalsCupReality]

What are you talking about?

I've not seen anyone make that claim. The only claim is a statistical one that he has the best all time sv pctg and that's a fact.

This is pretty close..."TO is facing Holtby, the worlds best playoff goalie of all time, if only statistically.".

It's silly talk making those statements is what broad is saying.

 

[troyerlaw]

Were you not surprised to hear they almost put Grubs in?

I was stunned. I know that Holts is not seeing the typical offensive barrage, and don't consider the goals he is allowing are soft and warranting being yanked in a 2 goal game during intermission.

Have you ever seen a goalie yanked because of goals he is not expected to stop, pucks off heads? I haven't.

How could you be stunned? He is letting in 4 goals a game; he hasn't looked convincing even on some of the stops he does make; half this board last night was begging for the goalie change; Toronto fans are openly rejoicing at Holtby's suddenly swiss-cheese consistency.

I mean, is this really a brand-new issue on your radar?

And on a separate topic, in a slightly similar, told-you-so kind of vein, i remember some of us were mocked/scolded in the waning days of reg season for harping on 88 not getting a sweater. Some posters went as far as to say they looked forward to Schmidt getting his next sweater as a member of the Golden Knights.

Again, at least currently, it's looking like the 88 fan club may not have been off-base. 88's play has helped the team a lot these last two games.

 

[Demandedace]

I get that Holts was struggling, but were they seriously considering putting Gruby in to start the third right at the beginning of a full two minute 5 on 3 PK lol, that would have been the most cruel thing imaginable

 

[troyerlaw]

I get that Holts was struggling, but were they seriously considering putting Gruby in to start the third right at the beginning of a full two minute 5 on 3 PK lol, that would have been the most cruel thing imaginable

It shows just how concerned they were about the state of holtby's game and his likely ability or inability to keep Leafs from scoring twice during the double-PP.

If it were me, i wouldnt wait for first two or three goals against in Game 5. I would just give Grubauer a start now. He has shown himself capable. If he gets a hot hand and stands on his head, then 70 may just have to sit for a few games till Grubs comes back to earth. With the current state of our offense, a very hot goalie could make us a tough out going forward.

The point of the goaltending decision is not to worry about 70's past excellent service, or his feelings. The point is to win the Stanley Cup as quickly and decisively as possible. Right now we are 2–2 in the series despite Braden, not because of him. Imagine where we could be with a goalie playing his A game right now.

Would Grubs be nervous? Of course. But he won us a game against the Islanders a couple of years back in a pressure situation. And also he may well see this as the chance of a lifetime, which it is -- the chance to lock in a career as an NHL goalie and earn his next contract or two, either with us or his next team, by excelling in crunch time on the big stage.

Players are not the only ones who need to be bold and aggressive at this time of year. Coaches need to do same, especially Barry, who tends to be the opposite. He needs to stay ahead of the curve and think proactively, not just react to obvious situations as they arise.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

I was going to post saying if Holtby sucks again in game 5 we would have to go to grubby, but I would be fine giving him the start for game 5. The pens won the cup rotating goalies, and we have 2 NHL level starter goalies

 

[Kegger]

It's the guys in front that have to do a better job of clearing out in front getting the bounces cleared out. This ain't Holtby as much as it is guys standing around watching the play.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Would be a brass balls coaching move.....like Pedro Serrano sized.

 

[RandyHolt]

How could you be stunned? .....

The timing just seemed really bad. 2 goal deficit, I could see. 2 goal lead in a 2-1 series, is close to unprecedented stuff.

I know Holts has been all over the heat map but thought he deserves the benefit of the doubt, at least until the end of a game, or closer to a tie game.

I believe many are of the mindset that you get one goalie change in the playoffs. Not me, but rotating goalies does not have all that great of a track record. Were we ready to go down that road with a 2 goal lead in game 4?

I think the goals he has allowed have not been soft goals. Toronto is playing us freaking tough. I am giving a lot of credit to Babs obviously for making Holts look bad. I am just not convinced Grubs can stop the shots sneaking past Holts. Babs may be licking his chops to chase Holtby. That's the way I usually want it. Chase the A1 and demoralize the opposition, and then beatup the backup.

I am not convinced a goalie change was wise only after what I consider 2 periods of Barry finally starting to coach. Barry should have tried to support Holtby more via matchups etc, LONG before game 4.

Babcock seems to have both Barry and Holtby on tilt. Had, hopefully. Last nights win was HUGE.

 

[traparatus]

It shows just how concerned they were about the state of holtby's game and his likely ability or inability to keep Leafs from scoring twice during the double-PP.

If it were me, i wouldnt wait for first two or three goals against in Game 5. I would just give Grubauer a start now. He has shown himself capable. If he gets a hot hand and stands on his head, then 70 may just have to sit for a few games till Grubs comes back to earth. With the current state of our offense, a very hot goalie could make us a tough out going forward.

I would go with Holtby for game 5 no matter what just because of the nature of this series. If you spot Toronto a two goal lead in game 5, it's not the end of the world. You can switch goalies and come back from it. I still want to make sure that Holtby cannot get his **** together before putting Grubauer in.

What happens if you start Grubauer and 3-4 pucks bounce in behind him? Now, that's a real predicament.

 

[artilector]

It's interesting how Holtby mirrors the rest of the Caps. He's got great numbers, but I don't think any team is particularly afraid of facing him. Scrambly goals -- he's ordinary; glove side -- can be beat. High volume of shots that he can see -- yeah, he's great, but so are many others, especially in playoffs, it seems. Head to head in playoffs, he's outplayed his counterpart maybe once or twice.

So far, he's been ok, IMO. He seems too out of position quite a few times, but he hasn't let in the kind of clear softies that really make you want to go to a backup. There's a chance that Grubauer might be a bit less leaky right now, but there's probably at least as big a chance that he might struggle jumping in right now, when the pressure is highest.

Anyway, I'd be ok with it either way.

 

[stanleycaps18]

That's why I don't buy that. No chance they would have put in Grubauer after up 4-2 even without that 5 on 3.

I just watched the highlights again....

On that last TO goal...JVR..with no Cap around him just kicks Holtby for no reason. It was a donkey back kick that he did intentionally.

I don't think I've ever seen that in my life. WTH was he thinking and how was that not a penalty? At the very least they should have overturned that goal out of a sense of fairness (since it did distract Holtby altho it probably didn't stop him from making the save)

Yep, and it was reviewed and considered a good goal.

Going back to the reviews, and not just this playoffs, but all the way back to Knuble, the Caps just don't get the calls either way and there is no rhyme or reason to it.

 

[Blades of Steel]

Holtby probably can't get in a groove because the leafs are getting insanely lucky bounces.. Even on the Sirius XM NHL channel they were talking about how many fortunate and lucky bounces TO has had and that may be getting in Holtbys head.

Everyone has to up their defensive game, from clearing the crease, to blocking shots, to making sure these guys aren't getting easy rebounds, Holtby needs to elevate himself a bit on that as well.

I still think we aren't dictating the game enough, we are playing the exact style that Toronto wants, especially when we attempt to turtle but are failing miserably at it. When we DO dictate the game as we want we have them pinned in their zone and Tom freaking Wilson is putting pucks in the net. I see flashes of the Caps starting to get their game going, I still believe this rust we are shaking off has to do with the days off before the playoffs started. The Caps need to keep getting better by the end of this series and stomp this team to finish them off.

 

[Stewie G]

Yep, and it was reviewed and considered a good goal.

Going back to the reviews, and not just this playoffs, but all the way back to Knuble, the Caps just don't get the calls either way and there is no rhyme or reason to it.

Even before that there was Thoreson pushing a defender into Huet uncalled. It's amazing.

 

[Calicaps]

It's the guys in front that have to do a better job of clearing out in front getting the bounces cleared out. This ain't Holtby as much as it is guys standing around watching the play.

This. And tying up sticks. Where's the coverage on these guys that are getting clean shots at the crazy bouncing pucks?

 

[Blades of Steel]

This. And tying up sticks. Where's the coverage on these guys that are getting clean shots at the crazy bouncing pucks?

puck watching

I've been seeing it a lot.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

It's interesting how Holtby mirrors the rest of the Caps. He's got great numbers, but I don't think any team is particularly afraid of facing him. Scrambly goals -- he's ordinary; glove side -- can be beat. High volume of shots that he can see -- yeah, he's great, but so are many others, especially in playoffs, it seems. Head to head in playoffs, he's outplayed his counterpart maybe once or twice.

So far, he's been ok, IMO. He seems too out of position quite a few times, but he hasn't let in the kind of clear softies that really make you want to go to a backup. There's a chance that Grubauer might be a bit less leaky right now, but there's probably at least as big a chance that he might struggle jumping in right now, when the pressure is highest.

Anyway, I'd be ok with it either way.

good assessment IMO.

 

[RandyHolt]

This is pretty close..."TO is facing Holtby, the worlds best playoff goalie of all time, if only statistically.".

It's silly talk making those statements is what broad is saying.

Yet thats what we hear after our annual playoff exit, if anyone dares suggests a single goal allowed was soft. Regardless, it was taken out of context as I was talking about a gambling analogy.

Barry: “It’s hard to gauge it because they’ve had a lot of strange stuff,” Trotz said, praising Holtby for being hard-nosed to handle bad bounces. “During the year, goalies, they do everything on predictability and there are a lot of things that aren’t very predictable right now and that’s what at times makes Braden look like he’s not there.”

Lots of things that aren't very predictable right now.

That's a very awkward way to describe an offense our goalie is facing.

 

[IafrateOvie34]

I'm a huge Holtby fan and will not complain if he has to sit one game. Even Crawford had to sit a game or two. He has to play tomorrow though. This is a team game and with that said, Holtby could have a lot more help. On some of those Leaf goals the team left him hanging. Back in the day a team would have one crease clearer and the Leafs are having their way with net traffic. Another thing the Leafs are doing is putting the puck on net and hoping for a goal, not displaying dazzling passing plays. Then there is of course the playoffs type bounce goals. Nothing any goalie can do with those even Patrick Roy. Like most of you, I'm sick of watching playoff goals go off our defenders. I don't need to remind of those heartaches. I want to know when are folks going to admit the Leafs aren't a bad team? They could easily be playing Ottawa right now and statistically their special teams during the regular season were decent. Consider they are super young and have nothing to lose either. I can't wait to see if Wilson has some more magic for this round.

Go Caps.

 

[IafrateOvie34]

Holtby probably can't get in a groove because the leafs are getting insanely lucky bounces.. Even on the Sirius XM NHL channel they were talking about how many fortunate and lucky bounces TO has had and that may be getting in Holtbys head.

Everyone has to up their defensive game, from clearing the crease, to blocking shots, to making sure these guys aren't getting easy rebounds, Holtby needs to elevate himself a bit on that as well.

I still think we aren't dictating the game enough, we are playing the exact style that Toronto wants, especially when we attempt to turtle but are failing miserably at it. When we DO dictate the game as we want we have them pinned in their zone and Tom freaking Wilson is putting pucks in the net. I see flashes of the Caps starting to get their game going, I still believe this rust we are shaking off has to do with the days off before the playoffs started. The Caps need to keep getting better by the end of this series and stomp this team to finish them off.

A Leafs friend of mine was surprised I didn't want to to play them in the first round and I explained the Caps don't do well with speedy teams and turtling was a concern. During the last few weeks I kept telling him I hope the Bruins would tank, but that didn't work out. My Bruin's friend was elated he didn't have to face the Caps.

Go Caps.

 

[marcel snapshot]

I still think we aren't dictating the game enough, we are playing the exact style that Toronto wants, especially when we attempt to turtle but are failing miserably at it. When we DO dictate the game as we want we have them pinned in their zone and Tom freaking Wilson is putting pucks in the net./QUOTE]

I fear Trotz has a blind - or very stubborn - spot about this. It was the same thing last year in the Penguins series, when we played a surrender possession, throw it deep, and bang there D style that was too often late to the puck and/or the D guy and vulnerable to a quick counter-attack from Pens D guys that were adept at taking a hit and moving the puck.

In this case we get up on the Buds, and then we just start to surrender territory to them - give them easier exits, neutral zone carries and entries all in the name of protecting the house, instead of pressuring them hard as they carry and forcing their relatively inexperienced team and middling at best possession players to make smart decisions with the puck. It's just mind-boggling.

Trotz has to give the forwards playing D more permission to get after the puck-carrier hard and force them to make plays earlier. This business conceding ice wide while walling off the middle with the goal of hoping they run out of real estate ain't working, because they're just using the absence of space to throw pucks into crowds in the middle of the ice and hope for a bounce and it's frickin working. But part of the reason it works is that we don't pressure and contest them earlier - I guess because we're afraid of their quickness.

They're quick but they're not possessed of elite-level skill. They coughed the puck up repeatedly early on when we we dictated tempo and played to deny them time and space. And then as soon as went into the turtle, they stop turning it over, and start generating many more chances.

I'm worried the players see it too - and they're scratching their heads wondering about whether they have a coach who has what it takes to guide them through this stuff.

 

[Jags]

I have to agree with Bob, ronto has had insane puck luck this series and Holtby has looked rather pedestrian.

This is the logic I object to.

Holtby has looked rather pedestrian BECAUSE Toronto has had insane puck luck.

Yes, there's something to be said for the Leafs throwing pucks at the net and the chances that can create, and on some of those (with the extreme benefit of hindsight) Holtby could have been better positionally.

But the Leafs have 7 goals off flukey, unintentional bounces. Seven. That's half their goals. And let's not forget the defensive lapses on a couple others (one each off Niskanen and Carlson losing their sticks).

I'm not saying, "Let's ignore 9 of their goals!" and Holtby definitely needed to be better on some of them, but do the math. If 4 of those bounce differently, Holtby's numbers are fine, the series is probably 3-1, and we wouldn't be in full-on "Let's criticize the Caps" mode.

Put Grubauer in all 9 of those situations and I still think you're looking at 9 goals against. And for each one you might argue he'd have saved, there's one somewhere else he would have missed.

Goaltending isn't the issue here. Holtby is fine; he and Korn will dial it in.

 

[twabby]

Yeah on one hand Holtby has been losing his net quite a bit and probably needs to make himself bigger.

On the other hand there have been a high frequency of bad bounces that have ended up in the net. No stats to prove this, but it certainly seems that way.

He needs to be better IMO but he's also been really unlucky.

 

[Jags]

If it were me, i wouldnt wait for first two or three goals against in Game 5. I would just give Grubauer a start now. He has shown himself capable.

Capable of what? Performing well behind a league's-best D in favorable starts? Grubauer played great this year, and I'd have no issue turning to him when it's called for, but he has zero big-game pedigree. Zero.

This is a guy who only got favorable starts last year with a Presidents Trophy team and somehow managed to put up a losing record.

Sitting Holtby makes no sense.

 

[traparatus]

I still think we aren't dictating the game enough, we are playing the exact style that Toronto wants, especially when we attempt to turtle but are failing miserably at it. When we DO dictate the game as we want we have them pinned in their zone and Tom freaking Wilson is putting pucks in the net./QUOTE]

I fear Trotz has a blind - or very stubborn - spot about this. It was the same thing last year in the Penguins series, when we played a surrender possession, throw it deep, and bang there D style that was too often late to the puck and/or the D guy and vulnerable to a quick counter-attack from Pens D guys that were adept at taking a hit and moving the puck.

In this case we get up on the Buds, and then we just start to surrender territory to them - give them easier exits, neutral zone carries and entries all in the name of protecting the house, instead of pressuring them hard as they carry and forcing their relatively inexperienced team and middling at best possession players to make smart decisions with the puck. It's just mind-boggling.

Trotz has to give the forwards playing D more permission to get after the puck-carrier hard and force them to make plays earlier. This business conceding ice wide while walling off the middle with the goal of hoping they run out of real estate ain't working, because they're just using the absence of space to throw pucks into crowds in the middle of the ice and hope for a bounce and it's frickin working. But part of the reason it works is that we don't pressure and contest them earlier - I guess because we're afraid of their quickness.

They're quick but they're not possessed of elite-level skill. They coughed the puck up repeatedly early on when we we dictated tempo and played to deny them time and space. And then as soon as went into the turtle, they stop turning it over, and start generating many more chances.

I'm worried the players see it too - and they're scratching their heads wondering about whether they have a coach who has what it takes to guide them through this stuff.

A big part of it is that Leafs can and do make big offensive pushes. Needless to say, there are always two teams on the ice.

I agree that a lot of it is on Trotz. I don't think he did any coaching to speak of until game 3. Two periods of dominance in Game 4 and what happens in the 3rd? Defense backs off, neutral zone gap goes from 4 feet to 12 feet, out comes Beagle to lose every defensive zone draw and Caps barely cross the red line for 20 minutes.

 

[g00n]

Capable of what? Performing well behind a league's-best D in favorable starts? Grubauer played great this year, and I'd have no issue turning to him when it's called for, but he has zero big-game pedigree. Zero.

This is a guy who only got favorable starts last year with a Presidents Trophy team and somehow managed to put up a losing record.

Sitting Holtby makes no sense.

Didn't he win a playoff game last year or the year before when Holtby was sick?