Early Impressions: Marcus Pettersson

[Tom Hanks]

Goaltending can make up for a lot..in this case, I think more than league average will be needed...what we need is Geno to go god mode again while Sid is playing like this and a trade for a 3C since Brass hasn’t cut it, or a top 6 winger...right now...Horny hasn’t returned to form, Simon is still rusty, Phil and G are mia a lot and no one on L3, and I’ll include Sheahan, Pearson and ZAR with that, are doing much of anything scoring wise...we’re a one line team...not going to go far with that...the D imo is as good as it will be until Shultz comes back (don’t see a trade there) and hopefully he can come back guns ablazing....just don’t see us beating the Caps or TB (or maybe even Tor, CBJ) the ways things stand now

We literally beat the Caps 6 days ago.

To most of your points it’s not the playoffs yet so it doesn’t matter too much. Over 4 months until we get there.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Yeah, let's not kid anyone, Sprong's upside was a Neal type of complementary triggerman. He doesn't look to be a guy who can individually push offense on a consistent basis. He seems to be a guy who will score goals if you put him with a good playmaker, and will individually create a Sutter type of goal on the rush every now and then.

I don't think anybody was looking to him to drive offense. But there is something to be said for a winger who can snipe when the puck is put on a platter for them - something that Sid and Geno will be able to do even as they decline. We have two such wingers right now, and one is the subject of regular criticism and trade rumours no matter how productive he is.

I love Rust and Hornqvist but if Kessel's dealt I don't want 3 of our top 4 wingers to have that level of skill.

/hewhocannotbenamedtangent

 

[Andy99]

We literally beat the Caps 6 days ago.

Too most of your points it’s not the playoffs yet so it doesn’t matter too much. Over 4 months until we get there.

Right...we’ll see...I still think they need a trade or two more...

 

[Pens x]

Happy with him. Solid if unspectacular in all areas. Dumo lite. Will grow into a fine #4 to be paired with a Letang/Schultz type, but for this season is a better fit on the 3rd pairing with JJ.

Dumoulin Letang
????? Schultz
Pettersson JJ
Riikola

I've been saying it for a little while now, move Maatta, Oleksiak and Brassard out, bring in a 3/4 D and a LW for Malkin/Kessel and we are looking good again.

We will look very very bad with Riley effing Sheahan as our 3C.

 

[Peat]

Goaltending can make up for a lot..in this case, I think more than league average will be needed...what we need is Geno to go god mode again while Sid is playing like this and a trade for a 3C since Brass hasn’t cut it, or a top 6 winger...right now...Horny hasn’t returned to form, Simon is still rusty, Phil and G are mia a lot and no one on L3, and I’ll include Sheahan, Pearson and ZAR with that, are doing much of anything scoring wise...we’re a one line team...not going to go far with that...the D imo is as good as it will be until Shultz comes back (don’t see a trade there) and hopefully he can come back guns ablazing....just don’t see us beating the Caps or TB (or maybe even Tor, CBJ) the ways things stand now

We've won 4 lost 3 against those 4 teams this season and while we've got some problems at the moment, we've also won 5 from the last 7, 4 of them (I think) games against last season's play off teams.

I don't want to get all cocky, I know there's plenty of problems at the moment and some big question marks for the end of the season, but at the same time the teams we have to beat are teams that we are beating. And that's before we solve the problems. Get half those guys back into form/Geno in God mode and we spend 2 merry months destroying the NHL again.

I'd be happier with a few more tweaks but I see no reason why, if people are in form, this roster couldn't contend for a Cup. And, well, if half the roster isn't in form, then it doesn't really matter who's on it!

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't think anybody was looking to him to drive offense. But there is something to be said for a winger who can snipe when the puck is put on a platter for them - something that Sid and Geno will be able to do even as they decline. We have two such wingers right now, and one is the subject of regular criticism and trade rumours no matter how productive he is.

I love Rust and Hornqvist but if Kessel's dealt I don't want 3 of our top 4 wingers to have that level of skill.

/hewhocannotbenamedtangent

Yeah, what you say is the center has to do all the defensive work. Look at Henrique or Getzlaf.

 

[JTG]

I think one issue we’re going to run into is that our top players are all going to start declining in production so it’d be nice to have some talented players in their early 20s to pick up some of that slack, Sprong was supposed to be one to do it.

One has to question that maybe the best way to go is to do a retool in a year or two. Kessel and Letang are two guys that I think could create a quick turn around here. Giving up guys like Dumoulin or Guentzel would make it even faster.

How things sit right now, we are not in an advantageous spot. I understand wanting to win now, but us trading 1st round picks has almost never panned out for us.

 

[Turin]

One has to question that maybe the best way to go is to do a retool in a year or two. Kessel and Letang are two guys that I think could create a quick turn around here. Giving up guys like Dumoulin or Guentzel would make it even faster.

How things sit right now, we are not in an advantageous spot. I understand wanting to win now, but us trading 1st round picks has almost never panned out for us.

Until Letang slows down trading him guarantees the team gets horrifically worse.

I don’t understand your point about giving up Guentzel and Dumoulin either...

 

[JTG]

Until Letang slows down trading him guarantees the team gets horrifically worse.

I don’t understand your point about giving up Guentzel and Dumoulin either...

If you wait to trade Letang when he slows down, you will receive nothing of value for him, which defeats the purpose of trading him in the first place.

If you look back at teams that have really retooled on the fly, it typically came on the back of them trading player(s) that made up their core for players who were young/unproven and it was typically a deal that saw more than one player come back for their one player.

Philly traded Carter and Richards for Voracek, Couturier, Simmonds, Schenn. They traded 2 core guys for 4 guys who shaped their team for the last 6 and made them drastically younger. Our Staal trade is a solid example too. Imagine if Shero didn't pick the wrong defenseman and took a guy like Trouba. Dumoulin and Trouba for Staal is the win of a century. That's the point I'm trying to make. It's not something we have to do right now, but it may be worth looking into unloading some of these guys that have value to bring some youth back the other way.

 

[EightyOne]

^^^^ if trades and even drafts were so easy much MUCH better run teams than the flyers would be doing it.

The best way to run your team is keep your high value skill guys, and then, once they slow down and lose value cross your fingers you can improve upon them somehow.

It's not really worth trading them, while they still have value, for babies.*

Then again, a lot of people take Door No.2 even though they already have the two jet skis and trailer in Door No.1


*that changes when your team REALLY is a POS, and missing playoffs more than making them and you do a real blow it up rebuild. Pens aren't there yet and aren't really a team who haven't really rebuilt like that often

 

[Peat]

A retool would be fraught with risk. Are the young players going to mature right? Are they going to cause any Nylander/Trouba style problems with contracts? Are they going to be ready in time to contribute to a Sid/Geno driven team? I'm as optimistic as anyone as to how long the Sid/Geno window could last, but there's nothing certain there. Lets say they'll remain a Cup winning engine for another four years - that retool could only be ready for the latter two. What gives you better odds, being a virtual non-contender for two years with a 12% chance for two, or an 8% chance for two and then a 6% chance for the last two? Its the latter.

And comparing the situation to Philly trading away two 26 year olds with no trade restrictions is likely to be misleading in terms of trade value when we're talking ageing vets with trade restrictions. We saw what sort of value you get for Phil if you force a trade with his NTC; it would not be much better this time. You'd get more for Letang, but right now he's arguably our most important player and I think you're quite unlikely to get another 1D in the window.

Really, the only way this makes sense is if you believe we're a virtual non-contender now, in which case you might as well roll the dice. But to me, that's an overly positive view of how much difference there is being a heavyweight contender and just a contender, and an overly negative view of where we are. If people want to point at form, then this time two years back the Preds were out of the play-offs. This time three years back, us, San Jose and Tampa are all in the 16-20 range in the overall table. 2014, Rangers and Kings are just clear of the wildcards. There's nothing particularly unusual about a team in our position going deep into the play-offs.

And the last couple of years, its been the weaker on-paper roster than won the battle between us and the Caps. Any roster that gets hot and stays lucky with injuries has a shot. Again, its better to take four low odds shots at the Cup than two good ones... assuming the retool would even be a good one. And that we can't have a good one now.

 

[Pancakes]

I think you can have it both ways by holding onto our first round picks moving forward unless the team looks poised for a deep run at the TDL. And if it is moved, lottery protect it.

That way if we miss, we've still got a pick to stock the system with. And if we miss it has a chance (however slight) of being top 3. And if we make it, it's probably still a decent pick unless we make a deep run in which case well shit we've got a low pick but we made a deep run so who cares?

 

[LOGiK]

what

Good question

OH, after reading the comment I replied too, which is not Marcus performance per se, but in response to your post. I meant to say, everyone hated the Sprong trade, but the Kapanen trade looks like the bigger 'hurt the pens in the long run move' than the Sprong trade. But since it brought Kessel and the two cups that may not have happened without Kessel, it's easy to say that was a fair trade because of the cups. Nobody really hates on the Kapanen trade because of what it brought in, but jump to hate the Sprong move, which is what I meant by pick fights to win, people only argue bad moves that are blatant for the most part. Not saying the Kap trade was bad -again- for what it brought, but if Kapanen keeps turning it up for years to come as Kessel slows down production more and more, that Kap move starts to sting more and more. The Sprong move is too early to tell yet, but MP was a good return as it looks right now.

You posted its nice to have the younger guys produce as the team ages where it hurts most. Yeah MP is good so far, the Sprong move is way to early to see if Sprong is a bust and Kapanen took a good long while to get in there and make an impact (which he is just starting to do point wise).

Just my late night cock-eyed posting --- nothing hard coated fact based. Mere opinion posting to conversate.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

If you wait to trade Letang when he slows down, you will receive nothing of value for him, which defeats the purpose of trading him in the first place.

If you look back at teams that have really retooled on the fly, it typically came on the back of them trading player(s) that made up their core for players who were young/unproven and it was typically a deal that saw more than one player come back for their one player.

Philly traded Carter and Richards for Voracek, Couturier, Simmonds, Schenn. They traded 2 core guys for 4 guys who shaped their team for the last 6 and made them drastically younger. Our Staal trade is a solid example too. Imagine if Shero didn't pick the wrong defenseman and took a guy like Trouba. Dumoulin and Trouba for Staal is the win of a century. That's the point I'm trying to make. It's not something we have to do right now, but it may be worth looking into unloading some of these guys that have value to bring some youth back the other way.

Trading Letang is just ridiculous. The hardest thing to find is a legit elite defenseman. 2/3 of the teams in the league don’t have one. JR has the right idea, build around the core with players in prime and go for it every year. You can draft for decades and never get a core like Crosby, Malkin, and Letang to build around. You ride this train until it is not able to leave the station. With those 3 players we can still compete for the Cup for many years. Trading Letang pretty much ends the Crosby era.

JR had built this team much better than Shero did who always traded prospects and picks for rentals. JR has targeted players with term and in prime age group. He also is very good at finding projects and players underperforming that he buys low on and many have developed and or regained good form. He took a team that was old and slow and built it into a fast team. Besides Cullen he team has no older players with most being 31 or younger. This team is built to last as long as Crosby, Malkin, and Letang can contend. I am fine with a complete bottoming out when those guys hang them up. Best way to build a contender anyways is be bottom feeder for some years. Get some elite players to build around.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

Good question

OH, after reading the comment I replied too, which is not Marcus performance per se, but in response to your post. I meant to say, everyone hated the Sprong trade, but the Kapanen trade looks like the bigger 'hurt the pens in the long run move' than the Sprong trade. But since it brought Kessel and the two cups that may not have happened without Kessel, it's easy to say that was a fair trade because of the cups. Nobody really hates on the Kapanen trade because of what it brought in, but jump to hate the Sprong move, which is what I meant by pick fights to win, people only argue bad moves that are blatant for the most part. Not saying the Kap trade was bad -again- for what it brought, but if Kapanen keeps turning it up for years to come as Kessel slows down production more and more, that Kap move starts to sting more and more. The Sprong move is too early to tell yet, but MP was a good return as it looks right now.

You posted its nice to have the younger guys produce as the team ages where it hurts most. Yeah MP is good so far, the Sprong move is way to early to see if Sprong is a bust and Kapanen took a good long while to get in there and make an impact (which he is just starting to do point wise).

Just my late night cock-eyed posting --- nothing hard coated fact based. Mere opinion posting to conversate.

The Kapanen trade was one of the best trades the Pens ever made. We won 2 Cups right after that deal with Kessel being a big part of it. The Pens PP has been much more dangerous since his arrival. Teams used to cheat to one side and that is no longer an option with Kessel on the PP. Plus Kessel is still much better than Kapanen and he was brought in to help the core win Cups and actually is a new added core with Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. Kapanen will never be as good as Kessel has been and Kessel is giving his better performances when it is needed during our cores time to shine.

So since the trade Kessel 221 points regularly season and 54 points playoffs for a total of 275 points compared to Kapanen 35 points regularly season and 3 playoff points for the grand total of 38 points. Now tell me how the Pens are going to regret this deal? Pens don’t make the deal we get no Cups and 38 points compared to 275 points and 2 Cups. Kapanen is going to have to be an elite player just to equal out this deal and even then it will never be a regret for the Pens. This is a win win trade. Pens got the better player by far but the Leafs wanted to tank to get Matthews so it worked out for both teams. Leafs looking at the future and the Pens the present which both worked perfect. Pens won 2 Cups and Leafs building a contender 3 years after the deal.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Yeah, what you say is the center has to do all the defensive work. Look at Henrique or Getzlaf.

What I'm saying is that we have precious little pure talent on the wing - two wingers total. One's about to get paid, the other's status with the team seems to be a permanent question mark, and the cavalry ain't coming from the pipeline now either.

We have no shortage of wings who can do the "little things" but are running dangerously thin on wingers who can do the "big things", especially if Kessel were to get moved. Maybe Sullivan thinks we can have a successful team with a winger contingent of 1 Guentzel and 8 Aston-Reese's...I'm not convinced. That looks like a textbook post-Cup talent drain to me.

Which is why nobody takes your opinion seriously.

Rust is as offensively skilled in terms of production and is a far more complete player.

This from the guy still somehow trying to rationalize Guentzel for Bennett (and a 1st!). Tell you what, if that's the standard for taking opinions seriously here, it's a group I'd rather not be a part of anyway.

It started with 2 goals playing along-side Cullen and Sheahan, the same black hole where Sprong started the year. Which is obviously a huge advantage of Rust over Sprong. Rust can play anywhere, Sprong can't.

Sprong may be as good as Rust offensively right now if given the exact right circumstances. Considering the rest of their games and the differences in versatility between them, Sprong is going to need to be WAY better than Rust offensively to be a better overall player. Some day that may happen. But he's certainly not there right now. Which as we've discussed, makes it hard for him to break in to the league on our team.

Really, we need to let things play out. There's just nowhere near enough information on Sprong right now to really say. Maybe he keeps it up. Maybe he keeps getting better. Or maybe he goes cold like Rust did. Most likely we'll see some of all three over the course of the season.

Clearly Rust couldn't "play anywhere" for a good portion of this season, because he stunk out loud in the top 9 - an opportunity Sprong rarely got to do here and but has immediately done well with elsewhere.

It's great that Rust's finally found a way to produce on the Crosby and Guentzel's wing. I mean, that sentence is worth repeating. Sprong playing better offensively isn't determined by "the exact right circumstances" - he has been a solid producer every time he's gotten a chance with a scoring line center. That doesn't mean there isn't a gargantuan talent discrepancy between Crosby/Guentzel and Henrique/Ritchie. Let's not pretend that all other things being equal, those are equally advantageous offensive situations.

 

[Shady Machine]

I’ve been very pleased overall. I’d be interested in a Pettersson-Schultz pairing but that leaves the misfits together.

Really good get for a piece the coach didn’t want around.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Clearly Rust couldn't "play anywhere" for a good portion of this season, because he stunk out loud in the top 9 - an opportunity Sprong rarely got to do here and but has immediately done well with elsewhere.

you are way way way too focused on one 30 game stretch of Rust's 275 game career.

 

[Gurglesons]

What I'm saying is that we have precious little pure talent on the wing - two wingers total. One's about to get paid, the other's status with the team seems to be a permanent question mark, and the cavalry ain't coming from the pipeline now either.

We have no shortage of wings who can do the "little things" but are running dangerously thin on wingers who can do the "big things", especially if Kessel were to get moved. Maybe Sullivan thinks we can have a successful team with a winger contingent of 1 Guentzel and 8 Aston-Reese's...I'm not convinced. That looks like a textbook post-Cup talent drain to me.

Our top nine as healthy..

Jake - X - Rust
Simon - X - Kessel
Pearson - X - Hornqvist

Who exactly amongst those players is a grinder? Even if you want to argue Hornqvist and Rust they both score at a 20 G pace regardless of where they are in the line-up.

This from the guy still somehow trying to rationalize Guentzel for Bennett (and a 1st!). Tell you what, if that's the standard for taking opinions seriously here, it's a group I'd rather not be a part of anyway.

Deflection as per usual. Let’s revisit your insane analysis of Kris Letang if you want to talk about hot takes.

Clearly Rust couldn't "play anywhere" for a good portion of this season, because he stunk out loud in the top 9 - an opportunity Sprong rarely got to do here and but has immediately done well with elsewhere.

It's great that Rust's finally found a way to produce on the Crosby and Guentzel's wing. I mean, that sentence is worth repeating. Sprong playing better offensively isn't determined by "the exact right circumstances" - he has been a solid producer every time he's gotten a chance with a scoring line center. That doesn't mean there isn't a gargantuan talent discrepancy between Crosby/Guentzel and Henrique/Ritchie. Let's not pretend that all other things being equal, those are equally advantageous offensive situations.

If you’re going to judge Rust in a short sample size, I have no issue pointing out your boy was with Crosby and put up 2 goals in eight games. That is a 20 goal pace. Exactly what Rust typically is on.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

you are way way way too focused on one 30 game stretch of Rust's 275 game career.

You're saying he can play anywhere - I'm saying that this very season, he needed a 29 game top 9 mulligan with arguably the best group of top 9 centers in the league before he became useful offensively. Few enjoy the benefit of that long a window, and few enjoy the benefit of that calibre of linemate.

I mean, I like Rust and good for him, but that's a player with some consistency issues of his own offensively. Meanwhile Sprong is producing whenever he gets the chance with anything resembling a scoring line center - even if his Anaheim duo's a several rungs below what Rust generally has to work with.

 

[Gurglesons]

You're saying he can play anywhere - I'm saying that this very season, he needed a 29 game top 9 mulligan with arguably the best group of top 9 centers in the league before he became useful offensively. Few enjoy the benefit of that long a window, and few enjoy the benefit of that calibre of linemate.

I mean, I like Rust and good for him, but that's a player with some consistency issues of his own offensively. Meanwhile Sprong is producing whenever he gets the chance with anything resembling a scoring line center - even if his Anaheim duo's a several rungs below what Rust generally has to work with.

Sprong has two 5v5 points in nine games since joining the Ducks. Even his four in 9 is a pace of 35 points right above his average.

Your takes on Sprong are the straight up definition of confirmation bias.

 

[Ogrezilla]

You're saying he can play anywhere - I'm saying that this very season, he needed a 29 game top 9 mulligan with arguably the best group of top 9 centers in the league before he became useful offensively. Few enjoy the benefit of that long a window, and few enjoy the benefit of that calibre of linemate.

I mean, I like Rust and good for him, but that's a player with some consistency issues of his own offensively. Meanwhile Sprong is producing whenever he gets the chance with anything resembling a scoring line center - even if his Anaheim duo's a several rungs below what Rust generally has to work with.

and yet here we are with Rust outproducing Sprong despite having an absolutely awful first 30 games. You had no problem with Sprong scoring all of his points with Sid last year in 1 game. Bringing that up was some unfair criticism of Sprong. Production is production. But it's a problem with Rust.

Let's see Sprong show some consistent 5v5 production, then we can come back to this conversation.

 

[Gurglesons]

and yet here we are with Rust outproducing Sprong despite having an absolutely awful first 30 games. You had no problem with Sprong scoring all of his points with Sid last year in 1 game. Bringing that up was some unfair criticism of Sprong. Production is production. But now for Rust it's a big deal.

Let's see Sprong show some consistent 5v5 production, then we can come back to this conversation.

Not really. The excuse is already built in Ritchie or Henrique are not the level of Jake and Sid so that explains why Rust produces the way he does.

Honestly, I don’t even want to waste the time, but I’m sure Rust’s production with Sid or Geno is in the 50 pt range since 15-16.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Our top nine as healthy..

Jake - X - Rust
Simon - X - Kessel
Pearson - X - Hornqvist

Who exactly amongst those players is a grinder? Even if you want to argue Hornqvist and Rust they both score at a 20 G pace regardless of where they are in the line-up.

I didn't say they were grinders, I said that none of those players outside of Guentzel or Kessel are what I'd call guys with pure talent, and if Kessel were to move on, there's a good chance our 2nd best winger in terms of skill would be Simon. Our middle-six winger group is already playing like the dog's breakfast. Can you imagine if we didn't have the inevitable Kessel return-to-form to count on?

Deflection as per usual. Let’s revisit your insane analysis of Kris Letang if you want to talk about hot takes.

I'm not deflecting anything, I'm saying you might want to avoid throwing rocks from your glass house.

It's easy to stick to the topic at hand if you try.

I

f you’re going to judge Rust in a short sample size, I have no issue pointing out your boy was with Crosby and put up 2 goals in eight games. That is a 20 goal pace. Exactly what Rust typically is on.

Yes, in his first and only 8 games while adjusting to a new league and linemates with which he had no time to establish chemistry and learn tendencies. Wowie.

 

[Gurglesons]

I didn't say they were grinders, I said that none of those players outside of Guentzel or Kessel are what I'd call guys with pure talent, and if Kessel were to move on, there's a good chance our 2nd best winger in terms of skill would be Simon. Our middle-six winger group is already playing like the dog's breakfast. Can you imagine if we didn't have the inevitable Kessel return-to-form to count on?

Every single one of those wingers is on pace for 30 pts at minimum. No idea what you are talking about.

Actually every one of those wingers is out producing Sprong’s Ducks pace outside of Pearson.

I'm not deflecting anything, I'm saying you might want to avoid throwing rocks from your glass house.

It's easy to stick to the topic at hand if you try.

Criticizing your assessment of Sprong is staying on the topic at hand.

Yes, in his first and only 8 games while adjusting to a new league and linemates with which he had no time to establish chemistry and learn tendencies. Wowie.

Sprong played a ton of games in the NHL. I know you like to ignore that since he was 18, but he had.

Rust produces regardless of who he’s put with. The Rust criticism is just bizarre after what he’s done for this team the last three years.