Each franchise's top five players historically?

[steve141]

You're one of those guys who pretends that players you never saw play are a lot better then they really are, right?

Please tell me which player was a lot better than anyone above him on my list. Bear in mind that I admitted that Lindsay, Fetisov, Yzerman and Chelios are hard to compare because their careers were so different.

 

[jepjepjoo]

No, his list was perfect. The only question is MacLean or Daneyko for spot 5.

Elias is the leading scorer in Devils history, good two-ways, and one of the best playoff scorers in NHL history.

Is this some kind of sarcasm? What am I missing?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Edmonton:

Gretzky
Messier
Fuhr
Kurri
Lowe (as a player)

People will argue my Lowe inclusion over Coffey, and I'll agree that Coffey was better when both players were in Edmonton, but Lowe contributed to more cups than Coffey did, and did so as the best or 2nd best d-man for every one.

Regardless, I can't see how you list Grant Fuhr over Coffey. Your criteria (Lowe was a key contributer to more Cups) doesn't apply to Fuhr/Coffey, and Coffey was better than Fuhr, right?

 

[alanschu]

Did you not see where I said best "at their position"?

Outside of his Pearson 155 Pts season, Yzerman has never even been considered a top 5 forward.

Howe was considered a top 5 forward for almost 20 years. Howe btw can easily be considered the best player of all-time depending on how you look at it.

Lidstrom has been the best defenseman in hockey for the last 10 years or so. He's won 4 Cups and has a Conn Smythe.

Lindsay is a pioneer of the game and was one of the most fierce competitors in the game.

Sawchuk owned numerous records for a very long time.

If you're going to give Lindsay points for being "one of the most fierce competitors in the game" then you have to give those same props to Yzerman.

This is a dude that was his team's best player in playoffs despite having woeful knee issues.

And I disagree that Yzerman only had one season of being considered a top 5 forward as well, but whatever people are going to disagree with that.

The guy was a beast of a player, developed a phenomenal two way game, and has 3 cups and a Conn Smythe himself (and probably should have won the Conn Smythe in 2002 as well), all on top of being the face of the franchise for 2 decades.

 

[steve141]

I hope you aren't serious. Several of those players didn't have their best years in Detroit and/or didn't spent a significant amount of time with the franchise.

Of course they didn't, that was not a criteria set up by the original poster. My list is what I said, the top players who have played for Detroit.

If you want to make a list of the players who contributed the most to Detroit it would look very differently of course.

I don't think there is much reasonable arguement to have Steve Yzerman outside of the top 3 for the Detroit Red Wings. He's largely considered a top 20 forward of all-time who is credited with being the savior of a franchise.

If we are talking about total on-ice contribution when only taking Detroit into account you are probably correct. After Howe, Lidstrom and Yzerman is where it gets harder though. I'll try.

Total on-ice contribution for Detroit:

1. Howe
2. Lidstrom
3. Yzerman
4. Delvecchio
5. Sawchuk
6. Lindsay
7. Kelly
8. Abel
9. Fedorov
10. Ullman

Close: Goodfellow, Pronovost, Syd Howe, Datsyuk

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Is this some kind of sarcasm? What am I missing?

Leading playoff scorers 2000-2009:

1. Patrik Elias 102
2. Joe Sakic 94
3. Peter Forsberg 92
4. Nicklas Lidstrom 88
5. Brian Rafalski 86
6. Scott Gomez 81
7. Chris Drury 80
8. Chris Pronger 79
9. Henrik Zetterberg 76
10. Marian Hossa 74

 

[steve141]

Too silly to even attempt to deal with

I reserve the right to define the criterias myself if the original poster does not. In this case I listed the top ten players who have played at least one game with the Red Wings in the NHL. Doug Harvey certainly was a better player from an all-time standpoint than Yzerman. Other criteria, such as most seasons with the team weren't specified.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Detroit is tough. This would be my Detroit list

1. Gordie Howe
2. Nicklas Lidstrom
3. Steve Yzerman
4. Red Kelly
5. Terry Sawchuk

HM: Ted Lindsay

It's really tough to leave Lindsay off, but from what I've read about the 1950s dynasty, Red Kelly was considered much more important to the team than Sawchuk or Lindsay. This is also reflected in Hart voting.

 

[steve141]

I agree with what you said except for the bold part.

Howe, Sawchuk, Lidstrom and Lindsay can easily go ahead of Yzerman.

All those guys I named were at one point or another considered the best players at their position in the NHL. Yzerman has never had that distinction.

What's your point? Paul Coffey won a Norris in Detroit, and Abel a Hart. Does being considered the best at your position make you a better Red Wing than Yzerman?

 

[steve141]

Detroit is tough. This would be my Detroit list

1. Gordie Howe
2. Nicklas Lidstrom
3. Steve Yzerman
4. Red Kelly
5. Terry Sawchuk

HM: Ted Lindsay

It's really tough to leave Lindsay off, but from what I've read about the 1950s dynasty, Red Kelly was considered much more important to the team than Sawchuk or Lindsay. This is also reflected in Hart voting.

I agree that Detroit is hard. I like your list, but how is Kelly's contribution to Detroit bigger than Delvecchio's? Kelly had the better peak, but only played 13 seasons to Delvecchio's 24.

Or are you going by peak while playing for the team? In that case Fedorov's Hart season should probably be up there.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yzerman was a really good player, but he barely makes the list of top 10 players who have played for Detroit:

1. Howe
2. Hasek
3. Harvey
4. Lidstrom
5. Kelly
6. Sawchuk
7. Hall
8. Lindsay
9. Fetisov
10. Yzerman

That last group with Lindsay, Fetisov, Yzerman and Chelios is really hard to rank though.

uhhh..

-Finished top 10 in scoring 5 times from 1984-1993
(After 1993, he started developing his defensive game while still putting up great numbers)
-1989 Lester B award
-1998 Conn Smythe
-2000 Selke Award
-Captain from 1987-2006
-lead his team to the Cup in 1997, 1998, and 2002 and lead his team in points 2 out of 3 of those years.

and you put him 10th....

Are you stupid or something?

 

[BraveCanadian]

Leading playoff scorers 2000-2009:

1. Patrik Elias 102
2. Joe Sakic 94
3. Peter Forsberg 92
4. Nicklas Lidstrom 88
5. Brian Rafalski 86
6. Scott Gomez 81
7. Chris Drury 80
8. Chris Pronger 79
9. Henrik Zetterberg 76
10. Marian Hossa 74

Count me among those that wouldn't have known this.. I knew Elias had done well for the Devils but I didn't realize he led a decade.

Now where are the games played.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I agree that Detroit is hard. I like your list, but how is Kelly's contribution to Detroit bigger than Delvecchio's? Kelly had the better peak, but only played 13 seasons to Delvecchio's 24.

Or are you going by peak while playing for the team? In that case Fedorov's Hart season should probably be up there.

Kelly had much better peak than Delvecchio, though.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Count me among those that wouldn't have known this.. I knew Elias had done well for the Devils but I didn't realize he led a decade.

Now where are the games played.

Leading playoff scorers 2000-2009:

1. Patrik Elias 102 (114 GP)
2. Joe Sakic 94 (96 GP)
3. Peter Forsberg 92 (83 GP)
4. Nicklas Lidstrom 88 (121 GP)
5. Brian Rafalski 86 (142 GP)
6. Scott Gomez 81 (114 GP)
7. Chris Drury 80 (111 GP)
8. Chris Pronger 79 (105 GP)
9. Henrik Zetterberg 76 (85 GP)
10. Marian Hossa 74 (94 GP)

Brian Rafalski played a ridiculous amount of playoff hockey that decade.

 

[lucscaps]

No, his list was perfect. The only question is MacLean or Daneyko for spot 5.

Elias is the leading scorer in Devils history, good two-ways, and one of the best playoff scorers in NHL history.

Thanks for the kind words.

I had dano in the 5 slot, but ultimately in my eye's I viewed MacLean as more important during his span of work then Dano was for that the same stretch of time.

 

[livewell68]

Leading playoff scorers 2000-2009:

1. Patrik Elias 102 (114 GP)
2. Joe Sakic 94 (96 GP)
3. Peter Forsberg 92 (83 GP)
4. Nicklas Lidstrom 88 (121 GP)
5. Brian Rafalski 86 (142 GP)
6. Scott Gomez 81 (114 GP)
7. Chris Drury 80 (111 GP)
8. Chris Pronger 79 (105 GP)
9. Henrik Zetterberg 76 (85 GP)
10. Marian Hossa 74 (94 GP)

Brian Rafalski played a ridiculous amount of playoff hockey that decade.

Pretty good list, you can see though that only Forsberg, Sakic and Zetterberg were at better, or hovered around the PPG mark of the top 10 players in playoff scoring. It's telling of the "Dead Puck Era".

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Pretty good list, you can see though that only Forsberg, Sakic and Zetterberg were at better, or hovered around the PPG mark of the top 10 players in playoff scoring. It's telling of the "Dead Puck Era" times.

playoff ppg for the decade (which is obviously a bit of an arbitrary cutoff):

Forsberg: 1.11
Sakic: 0.98
Elias: 0.895
Zetterberg: 0.894

 

[Okposofan21]

New York Islanders

1. Mike Bossy
2. Bryan Trottier
3. Denis Potvin
4. Clark Gillies
5. Bob Nystrom

HM: Billy Smith

 

[Ivo]

Florida:
Mellanby
Bure
Luongo
Vanbiesbrouck
Jokinen

Doesn't Robert Svehla fit in there somewhere?

 

[BraveCanadian]

Leading playoff scorers 2000-2009:

1. Patrik Elias 102 (114 GP)
2. Joe Sakic 94 (96 GP)
3. Peter Forsberg 92 (83 GP)
4. Nicklas Lidstrom 88 (121 GP)
5. Brian Rafalski 86 (142 GP)
6. Scott Gomez 81 (114 GP)
7. Chris Drury 80 (111 GP)
8. Chris Pronger 79 (105 GP)
9. Henrik Zetterberg 76 (85 GP)
10. Marian Hossa 74 (94 GP)

Brian Rafalski played a ridiculous amount of playoff hockey that decade.

Yeah, no wonder Rafalski was starting to have enough issues to the point he just said.. ya know, I've had enough.

Elias still does quite well even when you see the games played though. I'd say both he and Rafalski are quite underappreciated.

 

[steve141]

uhhh..

-Finished top 10 in scoring 5 times from 1984-1993
(After 1993, he started developing his defensive game while still putting up great numbers)
-1989 Lester B award
-1998 Conn Smythe
-2000 Selke Award
-Captain from 1987-2006
-lead his team to the Cup in 1997, 1998, and 2002 and lead his team in points 2 out of 3 of those years.

and you put him 10th....

Like I said, Yzerman had a very good career. That does not change the fact that each player I put higher on the list had a better career than him.

Let's go through your arguments:
-Finished top 10 in scoring 5 times from 1984-1993
Lindsay finished top 5 in scoring 6 times, Howe 20 times.

-1989 Lester B award
Of the players on my list only Lidstrom and Hasek were eligible for the award during their peak. Hasek won it twice. It's now called the Ted Lindsay award btw.

-1998 Conn Smythe
Lidstrom and Hall have one too. Besides, it has only been awarded since 1965.

-2000 Selke Award
You are right about this, no other player on my list has a Selke. The players above him on my list have 15 Norrises, 12 Vezinas and 8 Harts combined though.

-Captain from 1987-2006
Noone beats him there, good point.

-lead his team to the Cup in 1997, 1998, and 2002
Doug Harvey won the Cup six times, Red Kelly eight.

-lead his team in points 2 out of 3 of those years.
Gordie Howe was the leading playoff scorer six times.

On all the points you listed, except number of years as a captain and winning a Selke, others on the list equal or surpass Yzerman's accomplishments. None of this means that Yzerman career wasn't spectacular, it's just that he doesn't have the same kind of hardware as the others.

Are you stupid or something?

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Nice discussing with you too. Hope to hear soon from you again.

 

[Unaffiliated]

Pretty good list, you can see though that only Forsberg, Sakic and Zetterberg were at better, or hovered around the PPG mark of the top 10 players in playoff scoring. It's telling of the "Dead Puck Era".

DPE was 1997-2004, wasn't it?

 

[Peter9]

I reserve the right to define the criterias myself if the original poster does not. In this case I listed the top ten players who have played at least one game with the Red Wings in the NHL. Doug Harvey certainly was a better player from an all-time standpoint than Yzerman. Other criteria, such as most seasons with the team weren't specified.

The problem with that is that you're the only one that interpreted the original poster's invitation the way you did. Common sense told everyone else that what was wanted was the top five players for each team throughout history. As a Montreal Canadiens fan, I almost choked when I saw Harvey on your Red Wings list.

I have a similar reaction when I see various team websites claiming they have so many players in the Hall of Fame and including players who only had a relative cup of coffee with the team. Examples from the Montreal Canadiens: Frank Mahovlich and Denis Savard. Mahovlich belongs to the Leafs despite stints with the Wings and the Canadiens, Savard to the Hawks despite a few seasons each with the Canadiens and the Lightning. There are a few players whom it is difficult to attribute to a single team, but only a few.

I can see Gretzky making the top five for both the Oilers and the Kings, although I think he really belongs to the Oilers. But then I check out the St. Louis Blues official website and find that these are the Blues players it lists as in the Hall of Fame:

Hall of Fame Inductees
Players:
Doug Harvey (1973)
Dickie Moore (1974)
Glenn Hall (1975)
Jacques Plante (1978)
Guy Lapointe (1993)
Peter Stastny (1998)
Wayne Gretzky (1999)
Joe Mullen (2000)
Dale Hawerchuk (2001)
Bernie Federko (2002)
Grant Fuhr (2003)
Al MacInnis (2007)
Brett Hull (2009)

Gretzky played 18 of his 1487 regular season games for the Blues. And most of the rest of the players on the list had only relatively short stints with the Blues.

Claims like these are all you have as tangential support for your reading of the original poster's message.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

Correction. Esposito had higher regular season numbers.

Yzerman though is one of 5 players to ever get 149 Pts or more in a season.

yzerman had 155 point in ONE season. Thats the most by anyone other than gretzky or lemieux. Esposito is next


http://www.sportscity.com/nhl/nhl-single-season-points-leaders-215/

 

[polmaniac932]

Fixed

While my players weren't listed in any particular order, I'm pretty humiliated for having not included Nolan rather than Friesen (I'm a huge Nolan fan). Have NO idea how I missed that one.