News Article: Dump and chase or carry it in?

[powder88]

I know this has been talked about before, but here is a good article on Grantland.com discussing the evolution of the thinking around how teams gain entry into the offensive zone. Naturally, it appears that the Jets are dinosaurs in this regard...

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/10083164/zone-entry-nhl

Click to read more...

 

[CorgisPer60]

Dump and chase is ****ing dumb. I hate it.

 

[surixon]

Yup its one of my biggest pet peeves with Noel!

There is a time and place for dumping and chasing put it should never be your go to plan which it is for the Jets.

We have a number of players who are fully capable of hitting the offensive zone with speed.

Kane, Wheeler, Scheifele, Frolik are all very good at carrying the puck in and making plays. The problem is that it's chip and chase most of the time and other teams are ready for it.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Yup its one of my biggest pet peeves with Noel!

There is a time and place for dumping and chasing put it should never be your go to plan which it is for the Jets.

We have a number of players who are fully capable of hitting the offensive zone with speed.

Kane, Wheeler, Scheifele, Frolik are all very good at carrying the puck in and making plays. The problem is that it's chip and chase most of the time and other teams are ready for it.

Add Trouba to your list as well now.

 

[truck]

I get dump and chase when you are struggling with carry-ins, but I don't understand why this team dumps into the corner immediately after gaining the offensive zone. They often do it unpressured.

 

[King Woodballs]

Dump and chase works well if you actually chase

 

[garret9]

I'm on my phone so I can't post it, but my fave screen shot I've taken is Wheeler who has already gained the zone, has a pass option to his left, and minimal pressure from a d-man, dumping the puck.

There are times where you have to chip it in, and there are times where it is worth the risk to try and carry it in. Jets seem to rely too much in immideate risk aversion, which actually ends up hurting more in the long run.

Should be noted that 3 teams openly discussed zone entries this summer. All 3 of them are in the top 5 of most improved Corsi/Fenwick teams since last season... Could be coincidence but I don't believe so...

 

[Duke749]

Looks like we're all smarter then Noel.

 

[veganhunter]

I'm shocked . Biggest reason I wouldn't mind if Noel was relieved of his duties. I wonder if Noel is just one of those guys who has his idea of how the game should be played and contrary to all evidence he can't or won't adapt.

 

[Flair Hay]

It seems like the whole NHL is catching on and we aren't quite yet. With or without Noel I'd expect this to change when (a) we get more talent that can do this effectively and (b) we have a full offseason to make the full adjustments necessary. I remember garret talking about Yeo doing just this 6-8 months ago. Probably not coincidence that both a and b I listed earlier took place in Minny this summer.

 

[allan5oh]

There are definitely times when the puck should be dumped in:

1) Your checking 4th line is on the ice
2) Line changes especially if your forwards are tired and a D is carrying the puck
3) Protecting a lead but that's arguable
4) Timing (end of period)
5) Penalty Kill

To me the 1st-3rd line dumping it in is pure situational, other than the above. Sometimes it is the safe play, and there's nothing wrong with that. Constantly carrying in the puck also has its consequences. Teams will pick up on it.

The problem with dump and chase is even if you get the puck back, usually it's not a high quality scoring chance. Funny how I typed that and now am reading the exact same thing in the article.

It's also funny that the first team I thought of is the Minnesota Wild, how they used advanced stats this last summer to change their game:

Yes, as it turns out. One prominent example: the Minnesota Wild, a classic dump-and-chase team last year that made the playoffs with that style of play. But after the Wild realized they were going to need to beat elite divisional rivals like the Blackhawks and Blues to get to the next level, the Minnesota brain trust decided to shift strategies. As outlined in this recent post by Elliotte Friedman, Minnesota has decided to focus on gaining the zone with the puck.

edit: I have to add, usually teams want you to dump it in. They base their entire neutral zone play on forcing you to dump it in. Why we voluntarily give it up is completely beyond me.

 

[ediger]

Dump and chase works well if you actually chase

^ This. I don't mind dump and chase if the team is going hard after the puck. Too often they dump it in and don't fight hard enough to be the first one to the puck.

 

[garret9]

Yes Noel hasn't at all driven them mad into the DnC game...

 

[theamazingchris]

To the people saying "dump and chase" works well if you actually chase, I disagree. Sometimes it doesn't work even when you do chase. Board battles are very hard to win consistently. Making passes often has a higher success rate, depending on how the zone was entered. A team should look for passing options if possible, and dump if there isn't any. That's what teams that win do.

 

[truck]

To the people saying "dump and chase" works well if you actually chase, I disagree. Sometimes it doesn't work even when you do chase. Board battles are very hard to win consistently. Making passes often has a higher success rate, depending on how the zone was entered. A team should look for passing options if possible, and dump if there isn't any. That's what teams that win do.

This!

The aim of dump and chase is gain possession and create an opportunity to shoot. Forfeiting controlled possession so you can attempt to battle for possession is a downgrade. That is a fact.

 

[Grind]

I had always thought the theory behind DnC was on catching the dmen falt footed/playing up.

As in, two forwards are moving to the line at full speed, dmen are moving up to challenge puck carrier, carrier times the dump in so chasers don't have to speed cehck at the blueline, thus allowing hte forwards to reach thepuck first as they have a full head of steam going past the defenders.

I had thought it was allbout speeand timing on the transition. The key was getting to the puck before the defender, not just in time to begin a board battle.

I'm no coach so i'm going to guess i'm wrong, but that utilization would seem ok. the constant dump from practically a standstill (or whenyour already in the friggin zone) seems completely counter intuitive.

IMO a guy anywhere in the ozone uncontested with the puck is better then a guy a fighting for the puck behind the net.

 

[citizenmundane]

DnC is NOT a system. It's one of many strategies that a coach and players should use when a specific situation warrants it. This has been the most frustrating aspect to watch these past few seasons. This is also why the PP blows.

Also, in those two losses to Washington last year. Oates knew that the Jets only DnC so he had the forwards slow up the "chasers" so Holtby could come out and get possession of the puck. He'd then pass it up and the Caps were out of their zone in no time. They did this repeatedly - to great success. Noel did nothing to change this in at any time in the first or second game. This was my first clue that Noel wasn't a very smart coach.

 

[Gm0ney]

DnC is lower risk than carrying it across the line. You can get burned on a turnover at the opposition blue line when your whole team gets caught going the wrong way. And Noel is generally risk-averse...

 

[Hobby Bull]

DnC is lower risk than carrying it across the line. You can get burned on a turnover at the opposition blue line when your whole team gets caught going the wrong way. And Noel is generally risk-averse...

I agree with this completely. There are spots on the ice where turnovers are deadly, and one of them is when attacking the opponents blue-line.

In spite of his overall talent, serving pizzas at the blue line was, in my opinion, why Burmi and Noel butted heads.

I know, that to some, dump and chase is "dumb", but it keeps your team in a defendable position, and on a personal note, I have always loved to play a forechecking game, and that love continues as a fan. I love to watch a good forecheck. I know, I said good.

 

[JetsFan815]

Yup its one of my biggest pet peeves with Noel!

There is a time and place for dumping and chasing put it should never be your go to plan which it is for the Jets.

We have a number of players who are fully capable of hitting the offensive zone with speed.

Kane, Wheeler, Scheifele, Frolik are all very good at carrying the puck in and making plays. The problem is that it's chip and chase most of the time and other teams are ready for it.

But but but... what about playing a "simple game", playing "north-south", "working hard", "work first, skill later". Did I miss any Noel cliches?

In all seriousness though it's getting ridiculous. We even play D&C style when we are on the PP, that's the worst. A couple of games ago Schiefele carried the puck in 3 times on the PP and maintained possession and I was sure he was gonna get benched for that.

 

[garret9]

Short term risk aversion sometimes can cause more long term risk... That is what is happening here.

After all, giving up possession for a future potential of possession is also a risk.

 

[Hobby Bull]

Schieffle...benched

Wheeler...benched

Why you no dump and chase?

 

[veganhunter]

I agree with this completely. There are spots on the ice where turnovers are deadly, and one of them is when attacking the opponents blue-line.

In spite of his overall talent, serving pizzas at the blue line was, in my opinion, why Burmi and Noel butted heads.

I know, that to some, dump and chase is "dumb", but it keeps your team in a defendable position, and on a personal note, I have always loved to play a forechecking game, and that love continues as a fan. I love to watch a good forecheck. I know, I said good.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Burmi have some of the best zone entry success on the Jets?

 

[veganhunter]

Short term risk aversion sometimes can cause more long term risk... That is what is happening here.

After all, giving up possession for a future potential of possession is also a risk.

Reminds me of the big debate in regard to going for it on 4th down in football.

 

[Sweech]

I think the dump and chase system is poor talent analysis with this team.

We have speed through the wings and the vast majority of our defense are all very adept at carrying it in.

Makes little sense to force them into a system that doesn't take advantage of their skills.