does anyone know what brent was offered in may? a lot of people here seem to be saying he should have just signed in may. what if it was a really low amount? if the ducks couldn't sign him until all most two years after they drafted him and he had improved in that time, which i believe he most certainly did, shouldn't he get more money? i know these guys are making a lot of money in some cases but nobody likes when you **** with their money. i'm sure everyone writing here wouldn't be able to stand it.
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Slats432
Registered User
Incorrect.Tadite said:
Dallas Morning News:
The Stars will not sign prospect Martin Vagner and will allow him to re-enter the NHL entry draft this season.
"We just could not come to an agreement with him, so we decided the best alternative is to take the compensatory draft pick and move on," Stars GM Doug Armstrong said Monday.
Because Vagner was drafted out of major junior hockey in Canada (taken 26th overall in 2002), league rules allow the Stars two years to sign him to a standard three-year rookie contract. The deadline to do that was Monday. The Stars had intense negotiations with the 20-year-old defenseman, but decided the asking price was too high.
Of course he improved, hes older. However, he must not have improved very much otherwise he wouldnt have dropped like a lead balloon.superjonathan said:
I really like Tim Brent as a player, but he's getting exactly what he deserved with this whole fiasco. He should have accepted the contract that was offered to him by the Mighty Ducks. In my opinion the Ducks are doing the correct thing in this dispute. IF THE NHL HAD PLAYED HARDBALL WITH THE PLAYERS THE ENTIRE TIME THEY WOULD NOT BE IN THE MESS THEY ARE IN NOW.
I firmly believe the NHL and the GMs/Owners are 100% to blame for the problems that face the NHL today. 100%. It is THEIR bad business decisions which caved in to player demands. It is natural for a person to always want to be paid more, and its the responsibility of the employer to say no.
And the Ducks are showing that they are willing to be an organization which shows they have a set of balls and are making one of their players pay for not playing by the rules he should have initially. A third round pick gets paid less than a second round pick, that's the way things should be.
I love Brent's game, but he better have learned something from this experience.
I firmly believe the NHL and the GMs/Owners are 100% to blame for the problems that face the NHL today. 100%. It is THEIR bad business decisions which caved in to player demands. It is natural for a person to always want to be paid more, and its the responsibility of the employer to say no.
And the Ducks are showing that they are willing to be an organization which shows they have a set of balls and are making one of their players pay for not playing by the rules he should have initially. A third round pick gets paid less than a second round pick, that's the way things should be.
I love Brent's game, but he better have learned something from this experience.
superjonathan said:
My OHL contacts tell me that he turned down $450,000 U.S. to sign.
Two or three years ago, he would have been right to ask for maybe $700-800,000 to sign. In today's pre-lockout, "take it or leave it" marketplace, where some 2nd rounders are signing for $200,000, he should have taken $450,000 and said "thanks".
Vlad The Impaler
Registered User
Matt MacInnis said:
You're right that the owners are sometimes responsible. But you forget you have to live with the "bad" of a "good" finaancial decision.
Did they stick it to Tim Brent? Yeah. Did it cost a 3rd rounder? Yes. Can a 3rd rounder turn into an elite player? Sure thing.
Did the Wild stick it to Gaborik? Yeah. Did he play like crap? Hell yeah. Did Minny went from a team that participated in three rounds of playoffs to a team that missed the playoffs. Yup.
Did the Oilers save money by butting head with Comrie? Yes. Were they a less talented team with him not signing? Of course.
It's not just about money. This isn't stock market and this isn't just a pricing issue. Teams really suffer by making these decisions, and have to balance the good of a sensible budget with the reality that they need to be the best team they can be.
It ain't a walk in the park. The Hawks waited as long as possible and delayed Ruutu's arrival to North Americaa because of the money-grubbing, vampire-agents and the mess they have created in the NHL. At some point, they had to either cave in or delay his arrival by another year. Turns out they caved in and still sucked.
You can never win in this current system, and as long as the NHLPA gets its way, teams and fans will suffer while the NHLPA will get the upper hand and laugh almost everytime.
We've had this debate before Vlad...and I still maintain that it comes down to solidarity in the league.
If EVERY team hardballed their players like they should have this entire time than this situation wouldn't exist and vampire agents would be non-existent or at least far less common.
No matter what it all comes down to the fact that the NHL owners were stupid enough to allow themselves to pay their players too much and it filters all the way to the bottom. If they didn't their UFA's 1.5x what they are worth than they wouldn't have rookies who have done jack squat in their league fighting for an extra 300k. Once these rookies have won as rookies, as most of them do, they are always expecting to get what they want from owners and it promotes MORE of the same situation.
Everybody wants to make more money. Be them a plumber, a secretary, a logger, or a hockey player. The owners have allowed themselves to be walked all over in the past and they can blame nobody but themselves (both as individuals and as a cartel) for the predicament they are in.
If they all treated contract negotiations like the Ducks are dealing with Brent the league would be better off. IT's about time the owners stuck up for themselves.
If EVERY team hardballed their players like they should have this entire time than this situation wouldn't exist and vampire agents would be non-existent or at least far less common.
No matter what it all comes down to the fact that the NHL owners were stupid enough to allow themselves to pay their players too much and it filters all the way to the bottom. If they didn't their UFA's 1.5x what they are worth than they wouldn't have rookies who have done jack squat in their league fighting for an extra 300k. Once these rookies have won as rookies, as most of them do, they are always expecting to get what they want from owners and it promotes MORE of the same situation.
Everybody wants to make more money. Be them a plumber, a secretary, a logger, or a hockey player. The owners have allowed themselves to be walked all over in the past and they can blame nobody but themselves (both as individuals and as a cartel) for the predicament they are in.
If they all treated contract negotiations like the Ducks are dealing with Brent the league would be better off. IT's about time the owners stuck up for themselves.
To be fair to Brent, there is a serious inequity in the system when he has to re-enter the draft and R.J. Umberger gets to sign as an unrestricted free agent just because of a quirk of birth dates. I don't blame him for being bummed.
At the same time I understand Anaheim's approach.
At the same time I understand Anaheim's approach.
I believe the reason between Brent re-entering and Umberger becoming a UFA was because Brent was drafted out of the CHL and Umberger out of NCAA.
Teams have 2 years to sign their CHL draft picks, after that players must re-enter the draft if they are unsigned.
Teams have one calendar year after a player has left college to sign their NCAA players. At the end of that period (and I believe on July 1, but I'm not certain about that), NCAA players become free agents.
It's just the way the system works.
Teams have 2 years to sign their CHL draft picks, after that players must re-enter the draft if they are unsigned.
Teams have one calendar year after a player has left college to sign their NCAA players. At the end of that period (and I believe on July 1, but I'm not certain about that), NCAA players become free agents.
It's just the way the system works.
Matt MacInnis said:
No, players coming out of the CHL who are not signed can sometimes be unrestricted fee agents as well. See Kiel Mcleod for example. The key question seems to be whether they are 20 or older.
Yes, its the way the system works, but its not especially fair. That's my only point.
Vlad The Impaler
Registered User
Matt MacInnis said:
It's a question of gambling, and how much you can gamble.
If you've got cash to lose because of your market, you have to sign Brent the first time around. And keep the pick. And draft an extra player.
The teams can't be in solidarity when they have different interests.
As I said, while the Ducks stuck it to Brent, they lost a valuable asset to do so, not to mention there will be tensions.
There is no doubt in my mind SJ took aa finaancially sound decision when they hardballed Stuart and Nabokov. The result however was one year out of the playoffs and a clean up of everybody, including a top 5 coach in this league.
In that context, you can bet teams that can fork extra dough may well do so. It's a lose-lose situation currently.
Solidarity is for coming up with the rules of the game. It is never to play the game. It will never happen, and is not supposed to happen. That is why people sign agreements for.
BTW, you suck!
Like you said, its all about living with those decisions.
And more importantly, balancing them.
The NHL is not helpless against the mighty NHLPA. Far from it. The NHL is the one making the decisions, not the NHLPA. The NHLPA is a union. A union's job is to get the best situation for its members. The NHL is a big company, basically. Each team is a subsidiary of sorts of the NHL.
What is the job of a company? To produce the best product while taking into consideration its financial component, cost, profits, etc, etc.
It is the team's job to make sure they make money...not the NHLPA's. You told me in other conversations that the players aren't restricted to the NHL......so what should the players care about the livelihood of a league? That's not their job (unless your name is Mario Lemieux but that's a whole other problem). Their job as players is to play the best hockey they can, and the NHLPA's job as a union is to get their players the best pay/work situatoin as possible.
If you go back to the veryfirst holdouts....if they got hardballed and dealt with in a way that any other company would have (if a worker refuses to work in any other busienss because they want more money the company shows them the door), there would be no such thing as holdouts now.
Of course, they can't do that, because its already happened. So its time for the NHL to draw the line, and they're doing that with Brent and PARTS of the league are trying to do it (see Umberger), and eventually after some tough times, players will see that they simply can't go any further with the NHL. And if players decide to go to Switzerland....who cares.....the team has done its job to protect its own interests.
THe NHL is exempt from anti-trust legislation and all that because they are a cartel....they control movement in the league (draft, etc). Trades must be approved, FA signings must be approved and so forth. They are a CARTEL...the very idea is that they work somewhat cooperatively. They should probably take advantage of what has been given to them.
Soooo, to get back somewhat on topic, Brent, despite the fact that I love him and that he's a Norseman (more of you can ignore that), is getting what he deserved and the league needs to be doing more of THIS, than haggling over a hard salary cap. Right, Vlad? (by the way, I agree that the NHL NEEDS a hard cap, but I fundamentally disagree with the principle of it because the only reason they need it is becaues they're incompetant businessmen when it comes to their hockey teams in general).
Anyhow....you suck too Vlady!
Dragons drool too, my friend. We should probably continue this on ICQ and leave the poor people on the prospects board alone.
And more importantly, balancing them.
The NHL is not helpless against the mighty NHLPA. Far from it. The NHL is the one making the decisions, not the NHLPA. The NHLPA is a union. A union's job is to get the best situation for its members. The NHL is a big company, basically. Each team is a subsidiary of sorts of the NHL.
What is the job of a company? To produce the best product while taking into consideration its financial component, cost, profits, etc, etc.
It is the team's job to make sure they make money...not the NHLPA's. You told me in other conversations that the players aren't restricted to the NHL......so what should the players care about the livelihood of a league? That's not their job (unless your name is Mario Lemieux but that's a whole other problem). Their job as players is to play the best hockey they can, and the NHLPA's job as a union is to get their players the best pay/work situatoin as possible.
If you go back to the veryfirst holdouts....if they got hardballed and dealt with in a way that any other company would have (if a worker refuses to work in any other busienss because they want more money the company shows them the door), there would be no such thing as holdouts now.
Of course, they can't do that, because its already happened. So its time for the NHL to draw the line, and they're doing that with Brent and PARTS of the league are trying to do it (see Umberger), and eventually after some tough times, players will see that they simply can't go any further with the NHL. And if players decide to go to Switzerland....who cares.....the team has done its job to protect its own interests.
THe NHL is exempt from anti-trust legislation and all that because they are a cartel....they control movement in the league (draft, etc). Trades must be approved, FA signings must be approved and so forth. They are a CARTEL...the very idea is that they work somewhat cooperatively. They should probably take advantage of what has been given to them.
Soooo, to get back somewhat on topic, Brent, despite the fact that I love him and that he's a Norseman (more of you can ignore that), is getting what he deserved and the league needs to be doing more of THIS, than haggling over a hard salary cap. Right, Vlad?
(by the way, I agree that the NHL NEEDS a hard cap, but I fundamentally disagree with the principle of it because the only reason they need it is becaues they're incompetant businessmen when it comes to their hockey teams in general). Anyhow....you suck too Vlady!
Dragons drool too, my friend. We should probably continue this on ICQ and leave the poor people on the prospects board alone.
Vlad The Impaler said:It's a question of gambling, and how much you can gamble.
If you've got cash to lose because of your market, you have to sign Brent the first time around. And keep the pick. And draft an extra player.
The teams can't be in solidarity when they have different interests.
As I said, while the Ducks stuck it to Brent, they lost a valuable asset to do so, not to mention there will be tensions.
There is no doubt in my mind SJ took aa finaancially sound decision when they hardballed Stuart and Nabokov. The result however was one year out of the playoffs and a clean up of everybody, including a top 5 coach in this league.
In that context, you can bet teams that can fork extra dough may well do so. It's a lose-lose situation currently.
Solidarity is for coming up with the rules of the game. It is never to play the game. It will never happen, and is not supposed to happen. That is why people sign agreements for.
BTW, you suck!
Don't the Ducks gain an extra third-rounder since their prospect drafted in the second round re-entered the draft? I thought they gained nothing and lost nothing.
McDonald19
Registered User
Jovanovski = Norris said:
No the only comp. picks the NHL gives out for teams losing players to draft re-entry is first rounders.
The Ducks had 2 third rounders by acquiring one in the Gerber trade.
me2
Go ahead foot
I think they should fix this in the next CBA. A team losing a player to the draft should get the pick immediately after that player is redrafted.
If team X drafts a player in the 1st round and they reenter the draft and gets redrafted 200th (9th rnd), then Team X gets a compensatory pick slotted in at 201.
If team X drafts a player in the 200th, and that player booms and then reenters the draft and gets redrafted 10th (1st rnd), then Team X gets a compensatory pick slotted in at 11th in the 1st round.
I think this works better than the current system. The market sets the value of the compensation so Team X always receives equivalent value for the pick. They just need to fix up the college loophole.
If team X drafts a player in the 1st round and they reenter the draft and gets redrafted 200th (9th rnd), then Team X gets a compensatory pick slotted in at 201.
If team X drafts a player in the 200th, and that player booms and then reenters the draft and gets redrafted 10th (1st rnd), then Team X gets a compensatory pick slotted in at 11th in the 1st round.
I think this works better than the current system. The market sets the value of the compensation so Team X always receives equivalent value for the pick. They just need to fix up the college loophole.
Vlad The Impaler
Registered User
Matt MacInnis said:
Well, you never told me that. I actually agree with you. In part. I do think they are incompetent but I also think the competitive environment of a league has a set of rules that businessmen have not been prepared for.
You can't ignore that. And you can't ignore that in several leagues in several sports, we're seeing the same thing. It's not like magically, sports league draw rich people who are incompetent. There is a pattern here, IMO.
Matt MacInnis said:
Yeah, I'll see you online tomorrow, buddy!
I think it's worth pointing out that the NHL league office does not operate like the head of a company, does not possess much power. If we're testing out analogies, it's more akin to the Secretary General of the United Nations. It's a mouthpiece, a figurehead that voices the collective wishes of the membership, but it merely corrals, or attempts to corral, its independent members into a unified position. The NHL is not the one making decisions; that privilege belongs to the members.
The NHL league office does not have the kind of power to dictate league policy that some would suggest it possesses. Power in the NHL resides with the 30 GM/ownership groups that make up its constituent members... and those 30 groups do not see eye to eye on how the NHL should be run. Some preach solidarity on contracts, while some work to leverage the financial resources at their disposal to the fullest, which breaks with the united front that the others preach.
Sure, the NHL office periodically fines some of its members, but big-picture league issues are decided at the team ownership/management level. The league works much in the same way as would OPEC... that is to say, it would resemble OPEC if several large oil producers flooded the market periodically and broke with the group, something that does not happen with OPEC. Yet given how power is distributed, the league is indeed an oligopoly, and not a particularly united or stable one.
There is no single body making decisions in the NHL, able to keep its members in line. There are 30 individual members sitting atop the pyramid, and they disagree at a fundamental level on how the NHL should conduct its affairs. That's a problem, as the league heads into negotiations with a united NHLPA.
The NHL league office does not have the kind of power to dictate league policy that some would suggest it possesses. Power in the NHL resides with the 30 GM/ownership groups that make up its constituent members... and those 30 groups do not see eye to eye on how the NHL should be run. Some preach solidarity on contracts, while some work to leverage the financial resources at their disposal to the fullest, which breaks with the united front that the others preach.
Sure, the NHL office periodically fines some of its members, but big-picture league issues are decided at the team ownership/management level. The league works much in the same way as would OPEC... that is to say, it would resemble OPEC if several large oil producers flooded the market periodically and broke with the group, something that does not happen with OPEC. Yet given how power is distributed, the league is indeed an oligopoly, and not a particularly united or stable one.
There is no single body making decisions in the NHL, able to keep its members in line. There are 30 individual members sitting atop the pyramid, and they disagree at a fundamental level on how the NHL should conduct its affairs. That's a problem, as the league heads into negotiations with a united NHLPA.
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How I see it
Well the way I understand Brent's point of view is that he wasn't interested in the Ducks offer somehow (no mather what they were offering in may) and that's fair, it's his right... He probably assumed that he would be taken close to where he was originally in 2002 and get a decent deal from another team or maybe less but he didn't have to play for a team (Anaheim) who probably in his mind wasn't willing to pay what he's worth. Then all of the sudden he falls to the third round and the Ducks draft him again. I'm sure he knows well what his value his on the market now but would have rather like being drafted by any other team in third round and get the contract that goes with it, than to getting draft by the Ducks again. I don't think it's about the money itself, he's just upset the Ducks drafted him a second time while they weren't willing to pay him a second rounder value in the first place.
Altough this is just speculation, Tim Brent could be just whinning and trying to get as much money as he can without proving anything at the pro levels. I just tought some post were hard on him and that his point of view may be defended a bit.
Anyway he's not the first one to have this happened to him, my advice is take the best contract you can, play your best, prove everybody wrong and you'll be a hero. Look at Martin St.Louis (which I'm well aware did not have the same thing happened to him and he did proved every team wrong and looks like a hero today.) !!
Well the way I understand Brent's point of view is that he wasn't interested in the Ducks offer somehow (no mather what they were offering in may) and that's fair, it's his right... He probably assumed that he would be taken close to where he was originally in 2002 and get a decent deal from another team or maybe less but he didn't have to play for a team (Anaheim) who probably in his mind wasn't willing to pay what he's worth. Then all of the sudden he falls to the third round and the Ducks draft him again. I'm sure he knows well what his value his on the market now but would have rather like being drafted by any other team in third round and get the contract that goes with it, than to getting draft by the Ducks again. I don't think it's about the money itself, he's just upset the Ducks drafted him a second time while they weren't willing to pay him a second rounder value in the first place.
Altough this is just speculation, Tim Brent could be just whinning and trying to get as much money as he can without proving anything at the pro levels. I just tought some post were hard on him and that his point of view may be defended a bit.
Anyway he's not the first one to have this happened to him, my advice is take the best contract you can, play your best, prove everybody wrong and you'll be a hero. Look at Martin St.Louis (which I'm well aware did not have the same thing happened to him and he did proved every team wrong and looks like a hero today.) !!
bulat: You said that "he [Brent] probably assumed that he would be taken close to where he was originally in 2002. . . ." If that's the case, he's foolish. It's a virtual certainty that a player re-entering the NHL draft will be drafted later the second time around. In fact, with few exceptions----Boynton perhaps---players seldom come close to be being drafted as high as they were drafted the first time around. Vagner is an extreme example, but he fell from the 1st round to the 9th.
As a Ducks fan, I'd like to Tim Brent get signed and get his professional career moving. I think he has both talent and leadership skills. But, he gambled and lost. Now, get on with it.
As a Ducks fan, I'd like to Tim Brent get signed and get his professional career moving. I think he has both talent and leadership skills. But, he gambled and lost. Now, get on with it.
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