GDT: Ducks @ Flyers - 10 AM PT, 7 PM CET

[Ducks DVM]

Manson is clearly a #2 if you ask me. When he plays with Lindholm they have been one of the best pairings in the league. People say Lindholm is an average 1d at best and now I'm hearing Manson is a 3/4. How would am average 1d and a 3/4d create one of the best pairings in the league? Montour is a 3/4 but with huge upside. If I were the Ducks and say we had the 8th overall I'd easily trade it for either Manson or Montour if I thought the team was a contender or close to it. There are a ton of busts at ~8oa.

I think Lindholm and Fowler are both 2D who peak at 1D level but don’t have the consistency to stay there. Fowler with physicality and Lindholm with puck handling/puck moving and offense outside the power play (which is also nothing stellar). I think Manson is a 3 who peaks at a 2 at the same times Lindholm has been peaking as a 1. Hes also got big holes in his game and consistency issues. All the best Lindholm/Manson Years also came when the Kesler shutdown line was actually the Kesler shutdown line, and I’m not sure how much credit the forwards actually deserve for some of those stats.

The statistical anamoly of #8 having a lot of busts is irrelevant when you look at how many players picked in the spots right after that are significantly better than Manson/Montour (especially Montour), combined with how the Ducks clearly have their own rankings which rarely agree with the groupthink on the position. There’s no reason to think that they’ll take those busts.

 

[bsu]

Lindholm >> Fowler

 

[Trojans86]

I think Lindholm and Fowler are both 2D who peak at 1D level but don’t have the consistency to stay there. Fowler with physicality and Lindholm with puck handling/puck moving and offense outside the power play (which is also nothing stellar). I think Manson is a 3 who peaks at a 2 at the same times Lindholm has been peaking as a 1. Hes also got big holes in his game and consistency issues. All the best Lindholm/Manson Years also came when the Kesler shutdown line was actually the Kesler shutdown line, and I’m not sure how much credit the forwards actually deserve for some of those stats.

The statistical anamoly of #8 having a lot of busts is irrelevant when you look at how many players picked in the spots right after that are significantly better than Manson/Montour (especially Montour), combined with how the Ducks clearly have their own rankings which rarely agree with the groupthink on the position. There’s no reason to think that they’ll take those busts.

I disagree. Lindholm is easily a top 32 d. He just isnt flashy and it is tough to be a defensive d when your forwards are that bad. Fowler is clearly a step behind him in my opinion. More like a 2d. No way I'd say Manson is a 3d.

 

[bumperkisser]

I believe you guys are just having different definitions on what a 1D is.

One of you is using top 31D the other one is usually actual 1D

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

I think Lindholm and Fowler are both 2D who peak at 1D level but don’t have the consistency to stay there. Fowler with physicality and Lindholm with puck handling/puck moving and offense outside the power play (which is also nothing stellar). I think Manson is a 3 who peaks at a 2 at the same times Lindholm has been peaking as a 1. Hes also got big holes in his game and consistency issues. All the best Lindholm/Manson Years also came when the Kesler shutdown line was actually the Kesler shutdown line, and I’m not sure how much credit the forwards actually deserve for some of those stats.

The statistical anamoly of #8 having a lot of busts is irrelevant when you look at how many players picked in the spots right after that are significantly better than Manson/Montour (especially Montour), combined with how the Ducks clearly have their own rankings which rarely agree with the groupthink on the position. There’s no reason to think that they’ll take those busts.

Why do people seemingly rush to use the defensive play of forwards to discredit the defense? Playing with Kesler helps, I'm sure, but to the point where one isn't sure if one of the league's best pairings was actually that good? This Pahlsson/Niedermayer in 2007 all over again.

They also didn't eexclusively play with each other so not even sure if that holds up.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

I believe you guys are just having different definitions on what a 1D is.

One of you is using top 31D the other one is usually actual 1D

One is probably closer than the other but there is no real definition of a 1D and certainly no consistency in how that's applied. Really for any defense rankings, it's always 100% how a person feels and that's about it. Some analytics kind of try but even that seems kind of questionable.

 

[Ducks DVM]

I believe you guys are just having different definitions on what a 1D is.

One of you is using top 31D the other one is usually actual 1D

Yes. I think you can make a case that he’s been one of the top 31 defensemen in the league in the past, but he’s absolutely not this year, and I don’t think he’s the type of anchor a pairing with whatever corpse he’s thrown out there with while also driving the offense type guy that a prototypical 1D is.

Logan Couture, Max Domi, and RNH are top 31 in points this year. That doesn’t make them legit 1C’s of the type you can build a franchise around.

 

[Ducks DVM]

Why do people seemingly rush to use the defensive play of forwards to discredit the defense? Playing with Kesler helps, I'm sure, but to the point where one isn't sure if one of the league's best pairings was actually that good? This Pahlsson/Niedermayer in 2007 all over again.

They also didn't eexclusively play with each other so not even sure if that holds up.

Because defense is a team thing. Just like frequently the defensemen are absolutely not to blame for a goal because it’s a forward that blew their assignment, sometimes the defensemen gave it much easier because it’s the team’s forwards who are covering the dangerous guys and the passing lanes and making their lives easier. It’s a hell of a lot less difficult slowing McDavid down when Kesler is living inside his jersey rather than letting him skate free, I don’t think that’s a controversial statement. CryJo scored a bunch, but it was largely when Kesler wasn’t on the ice.

Also, that was hardly a dogmatic statement that I made that it WAS the forwards. It wasn’t rushing, it wasn’t dogmatic, it was bringing up the point that his best stats were when the entire team was playing a more responsible style and wondering how much it factored in. Why are you so fast to imply it plays no role whatsoever?

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Because defense is a team thing. Just like frequently the defensemen are absolutely not to blame for a goal because it’s a forward that blew their assignment, sometimes the defensemen gave it much easier because it’s the team’s forwards who are covering the dangerous guys and the passing lanes and making their lives easier. It’s a hell of a lot less difficult slowing McDavid down when Kesler is living inside his jersey rather than letting him skate free, I don’t think that’s a controversial statement. CryJo scored a bunch, but it was largely when Kesler wasn’t on the ice.

Also, that was hardly a dogmatic statement that I made that it WAS the forwards. It wasn’t rushing, it wasn’t dogmatic, it was bringing up the point that his best stats were when the entire team was playing a more responsible style and wondering how much it factored in. Why are you so fast to imply it plays no role whatsoever?

I don't, I've just always found it odd that it's always very one-sided. Like it'll be suggested that the D have it easier because of a defensive center but rarely the other way around despite the defensemen probably doing more of the heavy lifting. Like Pahlsson/Niedermayer, where there are people who legitimately think Pahlsson deserved the Smythe(very fair opinion on its own) but also that Niedermayer didn't, which truly baffles me.

On the whole you're probably right about Lindholm not being a true #1 defenseman, although again that's all feel, but I also think Lindholm-Manson was legitimately one of the better pairings in the entire league. The whole being greater than the sum of its parts, that kind of thing.

 

[Ducks DVM]

I don't, I've just always found it odd that it's always very one-sided. Like it'll be suggested that the D have it easier because of a defensive center but rarely the other way around despite the defensemen probably doing more of the heavy lifting. Like Pahlsson/Niedermayer, where there are people who legitimately think Pahlsson deserved the Smythe(very fair opinion on its own) but also that Niedermayer didn't, which truly baffles me.

On the whole you're probably right about Lindholm not being a true #1 defenseman, although again that's all feel, but I also think Lindholm-Manson was legitimately one of the better pairings in the entire league. The whole being greater than the sum of its parts, that kind of thing.

I absolutely agree with that. They’re a great pairing. I just don’t think either is nearly as good away from each other, and I think they both have consistency issues that keep them from being the top flight guys we need them to be.

Agreed on the defensive forward thing, although I think that swings both ways. Shot suppression stats are always credited to the D but it’s also forwards involved.

 

[AngelDuck]

We’ll just have to wait and see how the defensemen play next year

The bigger concern is obviously the forwards, and the general lack of scoring top to bottom

This team needs a 1C and an offensive defenseman

 

[AngelDuck]

You look at a team like San Jose...there forwards aren’t really special. But they’re one of the best offensive teams still

I’m not saying we need Burns and Karlsson to be successful but it’d be nice to have a dman that could push 50 points and QB the Powerplay.

Do we still think Montour has a chance to be that guy? Because I think the ship might have sailed on Fowler/Lindholm becoming that

I think I’d be on the phone with Philly and see if they’ll sell low on Ghostisbehere

 

[Paul4587]

You look at a team like San Jose...there forwards aren’t really special. But they’re one of the best offensive teams still

I’m not saying we need Burns and Karlsson to be successful but it’d be nice to have a dman that could push 50 points and QB the Powerplay.

Do we still think Montour has a chance to be that guy? Because I think the ship might have sailed on Fowler/Lindholm becoming that

I think I’d be on the phone with Philly and see if they’ll sell low on Ghostisbehere

I conpletely agree with you about needing that elite offensive Dman. I would be willing to move one of our two way guys to get one even if it mean downgrading defensively. We essentially have multiple guys capable of 30-40 per year but haven’t got anyone that can flirt with 60 and run a PP. Not since Visnovsky.

 

[Beretta 390]

Why do people seemingly rush to use the defensive play of forwards to discredit the defense? Playing with Kesler helps, I'm sure, but to the point where one isn't sure if one of the league's best pairings was actually that good? This Pahlsson/Niedermayer in 2007 all over again.

They also didn't eexclusively play with each other so not even sure if that holds up.

I'm call ING bull shit on your comment. Ask any D how they respond. Of course it's far easier to play D behind a decent line, playing both ends.