Rumor: "Duchene's agent is seriously unhappy with Sakic's foot-dragging on a deal"

[cgf]

Keep him? After dragging his name through the rumor mill for a year and his agent coming out and criticizing Sakic. I'm sure that would work out just fine. It's Sakic's fault this whole situation has blown up. He should have came out and said we are NOT trading Matt Duchene. Would you want to work at your job when you know your boss doesn't want you there anymore?

Sakic isn't the one dragging Matt's name through the rumor mill. Joe just did a s****y job of shutting down speculation because he sucks at dealing with the media and the avs just don't let anything leak; which only fuels the speculation since the press don't have knowledge with which to fill the gaps that they are forced to fill instead with assumptions.

As for what Joe has said, it was just that he's getting calls; that MacK / Rantanen / Jost are his untouchables; and that though he wants to keep Duchene / Landeskog /Barrie, he'll do what's best for the organization in the long run if that kind of offer comes in. Which is a little different from 'we don't want these guys here anymore'. I know that my boss would replace me if he was able to help the company more by allocating resources that go to paying my salary towards something else. I'm pretty sure that's true of many of us on here. Doesn't mean I'm not happy working here.

At worst this means that Duchene isn't for sure in the long term plans if he can be traded for that #1 LHD we need; which is more like knowing that your boss is looking at outside candidates for a promotion you were hoping to get.

 

[IslandersFan17]

How many agents are happy with every GM in the league? Do good GMs let the media tell them what to do? Why are these reasons for Sakic to give Duchene to the Islanders for something we don't really need, even if it would be nice to have picks and prospects?

The same amount that publicly state they are tired of the GM dragging his ignorant feet.

As far as my reference to the media, it's showing that it's not just islanders fans who feel this way towards Sakic.

Other teams front office have actually laughed at his asking price. Other teams have went other avenues.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

If he really wants out of colorado, he'll agree to sign an extension with his new team next offseason. Which would turn him into a 5-7 year rental next summer...which > a 2 year rental.

Duchene probably won't play past the age of 40. He's at most a 14 year rental. Not worth the risk.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

The strengths and weaknesses of Matt Duchene Ryan O'Reilly that would affect his trade value have been highlighted, you're not convincing a single non-Avalanche fan he's as valuable as you claim he is. That unwillingness to step outside of the echo chamber for an instant and admit that this situation is severely hurting Duchene's O'Reilly's value is what will make it so embarrassing when Duchene O'Reilly doesn't come close to returning an asset with Barzal's Zadorov's value.

That's basically exactly what Sabres fans told us about O'Reilly/Zadorov before they were traded for eachother. Funny enough O'Reilly is now untouchable in Buffalo and they'd never reverse that trade.

You have Eberle/Strome as an example, we have O'Reilly/Zadorov as an example. Both are valid arguments, so take your own advice and step out of the echo chamber and consider for one second that maybe the player you want to acquire is as good as we're saying. Maybe he really is a 60+ point dynamic #1 center like he's shown year after year and the dumpster fire Avs team tanked that.

If he were that good, then maybe it would be fair the Avs fans want to see a player sent back to them that actually justifies the risk of trading that known quantity. Say, a reasonably good prospect like Barzal that still has quite a bit of risk attached to him.

Pretty clear people disagree on how good Duchene is or are willingly arguing he's worse to drop his price.

 

[IslandersFan17]

That's basically exactly what Sabres fans told us about O'Reilly/Zadorov before they were traded for eachother. Funny enough O'Reilly is now untouchable in Buffalo and they'd never reverse that trade.

You have Eberle/Strome as an example, we have O'Reilly/Zadorov as an example. Both are valid arguments, so take your own advice and step out of the echo chamber and consider for one second that maybe the player you want to acquire is as good as we're saying. Maybe he really is a 60+ point dynamic #1 center like he's shown year after year and the dumpster fire Avs team tanked that.

If he were that good, then maybe it would be fair the Avs fans want to see a player sent back to them that actually justifies the risk of trading that known quantity. Say, a reasonably good prospect like Barzal that still has quite a bit of risk attached to him.

Pretty clear people disagree on how good Duchene is or are willingly arguing he's worse to drop his price.

And what exactly did that o'reilly return do for the Avs?

 

[Konk]

Were never going to come to an agreement between avs/isles fans. Think there is some serious overvaluing by both sides. Avs fans have an emotional attachment to a lifelong avs fan is duchene. I will never forget the duchene fist pump on draft day because the lightning chose hedman over him. Isles fans are attached to their prospects which is fair as well. Im a guy that loves potential so prospects are exciting. Prospects are hard to value. I like barzal but i also dont value him as much as most because i value goal scorers and barzal is more of a playmaker. Doesnt make him a bad prospect at all, just a different type of player than i prefer. Duchenes value is hard to judge because we dont know how much weight other gms are putting on last seasons disaster. It will be very interesting if duchene does get moved, just what he does being back

Go back a few pages and read my challenge to Avs fans to find a previous trade with a comparable player to Duchene and comparable term. Tell me what you find for value returned. Guaranteed it won't be a top 10 prospect and multiple 1st round picks, like some Avs fans are asking.

The comparable trades we found were the Bobby Ryan trade and Keith Yandle. Neither of which justify the Avs fans asks and the returns are actually closer to what other fans are proposing.

 

[glovesave_35]

If Sakic doesn't get a LHD, what's the incentive to move Duchene now, rather than keeping him? Even if Duchene doesn't rebound, he's still infinitely better than whoever the Avs could sign through UFA. What's the problem with keeping him, letting him fill that spot, and trying to move him at the 2018 draft, or 2019 TDL? I'm sure Duchene will still return a package of pieces the Avs don't really need, but would be nice to have, if/when he's moved in a year+.

At those later points you are almost guaranteed to get picks/prospects rather than the D man you covet. In which case, an argument could be made for getting those young players in the fold as soon as possible. Pushing out further and further the date those assets can help the big club would seem a negative from where I sit.

 

[Pacman33]

Go back a few pages and read my challenge to Avs fans to find a previous trade with a comparable player to Duchene and comparable term. Tell me what you find for value returned. Guaranteed it won't be a top 10 prospect and multiple 1st round picks, like some Avs fans are asking.

The comparable trades we found were the Bobby Ryan trade and Keith Yandle. Neither of which justify the Avs fans asks and the returns are actually closer to what other fans are proposing.

Like i said both sides. Pretty sure an isles fan thought mdc and a first was fair

 

[cgf]

Did you all of the sudden forget that Drouin has term and Duchene does not?

Once again Avs fans ignoring two years until UFA as if it does not exist. Drouin is 22 years old with term. Duchene is 26 with 2 years left, expiration status = UFA.

Once you learn this, you will realize why Drouin returns Sergachev and Duchene will not return a similarly rated prospect. Period.

'Two year rental' isn't a thing; and Duchene's agent is already out there talking about possible extensions with interested teams. How does Duchene with two years on his current deal & an extension for next summer already hammered out not have term?

And if all we're going to get for him are rental returns, why shouldn't we just wait until he's actually a rental to accept them? Would sure help take pressure off our young players a lot more than jumping the gun for some picks & prospects that our young players will instead end up having to shepherd in themselves.

 

[Konk]

'Two year rental' isn't a thing; and Duchene's agent is already out there talking about possible extensions with interested teams. How does Duchene with two years on his current deal & an extension for next summer already hammered out not have term?

You got a source for this?

 

[IslandersFan17]

'Two year rental' isn't a thing; and Duchene's agent is already out there talking about possible extensions with interested teams. How does Duchene with two years on his current deal & an extension for next summer already hammered out not have term?

And if all we're going to get for him are rental returns, why shouldn't we just wait until he's actually a rental to accept them? Would sure help take pressure off our young players a lot more than jumping the gun for some picks & prospects that our young players will instead end up having to shepherd in themselves.

Where? Where has his agent already said this?

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

And what exactly did that o'reilly return do for the Avs?

Well we've been a worse team for it, with the hope of improving since it turned into Zadorov, Compher, Greer, Morrison and Smirnov in our prospect pool. So overall it was a nice haul of one really good prospect and a bunch of decent prospects.

Considering how we recognize it makes our team worse and the risk we're taking of the centerpiece paying off... you're going to have a hard time convincing Avs fans to accept quite a bit less in trading Duchene than they got for ROR.

 

[Konk]

Like i said both sides. Pretty sure an isles fan thought mdc and a first was fair

There's not nearly as much coming from other fans as there is from Avs fans around here.

Many Isles fans are willing to give up a Beauvillier, a 1st, and other pieces. Avs fans on the other hand have demanded as much as Barzal, Sorokin/Pulock, a 1st, and a 2nd or one of the top Isles prospects and multiple firsts. None of those are realistic values, but are constantly parroted by Avs fans.

That's not even mentioning the ask from Montreal or other teams which are sometimes worse, i.e. Galchenyuk, Sergachev, and a 1st. It's beyond ridiculous.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

The same amount that publicly state they are tired of the GM dragging his ignorant feet.

As far as my reference to the media, it's showing that it's not just islanders fans who feel this way towards Sakic.

Other teams front office have actually laughed at his asking price. Other teams have went other avenues.

So, Duchene's agent, who stands to make a lot of money if Duchene got traded to the Islanders, as he represents both Duchene and Tavares, is upset that Sakic isn't giving him a blank check for his clients. Why should Sakic cave and give him what he wants? Because good GMs often do things that make their team worse simply to make agents happy?

Various media sources, who earn more money based on how many people click on their articles, are pushing a narrative that keeps getting them clicks. I'm guessing the income is more important to a lot of them than the veracity of their claims. Again, why should Sakic cave to pressure put on him by people who have absolutely no vested interest in making the Avs a better team?

And, if Sakic didn't really want to trade Duchene in the first place, why does it really matter if people don't like his asking price? I'd put a high price tag on him too, in an effort to weed out the GMs who aren't serious about giving up the pieces the Avs need to make moving Duchene the best move for the Avs. Unfortunately, some of those GMs didn't take the hint and whined to the media.

 

[twostroke27]

Wait. Am I reading this tread right and seeing a lot of avs fans saying they wouldn't take barzal and a first?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

At those later points you are almost guaranteed to get picks/prospects rather than the D man you covet. In which case, an argument could be made for getting those young players in the fold as soon as possible. Pushing out further and further the date those assets can help the big club would seem a negative from where I sit.

Seems more like a long term strategy to me. Why load up on assets right now, when you can spread them out? I'd rather have 2-3 guys ready to make the team every year, year after year after year, than get 10 guys all at once.

 

[CodeE]

That's basically exactly what Sabres fans told us about O'Reilly/Zadorov before they were traded for eachother. Funny enough O'Reilly is now untouchable in Buffalo and they'd never reverse that trade.

You have Eberle/Strome as an example, we have O'Reilly/Zadorov as an example. Both are valid arguments, so take your own advice and step out of the echo chamber and consider for one second that maybe the player you want to acquire is as good as we're saying. Maybe he really is a 60+ point dynamic #1 center like he's shown year after year and the dumpster fire Avs team tanked that.

If he were that good, then maybe it would be fair the Avs fans want to see a player sent back to them that actually justifies the risk of trading that known quantity. Say, a reasonably good prospect like Barzal that still has quite a bit of risk attached to him.

Pretty clear people disagree on how good Duchene is or are willingly arguing he's worse to drop his price.

You know, I actually found the "Ryan O'Reilly" megathread and did a little search for the name "Zadorov" to see what pops up. Funny to see Sabres fans post things like:

We're pretty much OK on defense. Ristolainen, Bogosian, Zadorov, Pysyk, McCabe. We could give up one of the latter 3 and still be just fine.

or

Boring but I could live with that (ROR for Zadorov, 21 and 51)

But here's my favorite, a Sabres fan proposes the following (and here's the link to follow along):

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=104156849&highlight=zadorov#post104156849

What the hell, assume COL signs Soderberg and let's blockbuster this sucker:

To BUF:
ROR
2015 COL 1st (#10 OA)

To COL:
Zadorov
2015 NYI 1st (#21 OA)
2015 BUF 2nd (#31 OA)
Grigorenko
pick one of Baptiste/Bailey/Fasching

Asbestos underwear has been donned.

Subtract #10 and #21 and this is pretty much the exact trade that went down, right? How did Avalanche fans respond to this proposal?

No thanks

There's absolutely no chance Colorado trades ROR AND 10th overall unless some other GM gets drunk and is willing to trade their top pairing, young LHD (Vlasic/OEL). That isn't happening.

No need for Grigorenko, and I highly doubt the Avs will include #10OA with O'Reilly...unless it's to move up in the draft (which I have mixed feelings about).

no way

ROR for Zadorov, 21 and 51

What do you know - Avs fans were the ones rejecting Zadorov deals for ROR, not Sabres fans.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Wait. Am I reading this tread right and seeing a lot of avs fans saying they wouldn't take barzal and a first?

In a vacuum Barzal and 1st is decent value, buuutt there's no way we should trade Duchene and not get a LHD in return.

 

[Viqsi]

People on hfboards write these long, long posts that only exist to hyping up their own guy and downgrading the other team's guys. The words may be different but the intent is as clear as hundreds if not thousands of posts I've seen hyping Jordan Eberle, hyping JVR, hyping Nathan Beaulieu, forever.

The problem is you want to be 100% in charge of deciding the value. You want to set Duchene's price tag as high as can be, then replace the sticker gun with the "clearance" stickers and start tagging Islanders players. He isn't good enough. Isles fans are overrating him. He'll never be as good as Duchene, not ever. We don't want him. We don't want him either. None of them are bluechip. None of them fit into what the Avalanche are building.

Which again, all falls into the pattern. Hype my players, trash your players. Hype my players, trash your players. You'll take Eberle for Hamonic because we've decided among ourselves the value of both assets - Eberle is more valuable than you think and Hamonic is less valuable than you think. Ryan Strome? Total bust, complete disaster, wouldn't take him on the Oilers for free.

The strengths and weaknesses of Matt Duchene that would affect his trade value have been highlighted, you're not convincing a single non-Avalanche fan he's as valuable as you claim he is. That unwillingness to step outside of the echo chamber for an instant and admit that this situation is severely hurting Duchene's value is what will make it so embarrassing when Duchene doesn't come close to returning an asset with Barzal's value.

This is both very true and very false, and it comes up because of IMO bad calls by all fans involved.

See, from here it sure looks like there's two ways Duchene can be traded:

1. For an asset that represents the trade objective (young roster LHD with top-pairing potential), OR
2. For a silly overpayment.

Negotiating the former is doable. Negotiating the latter is the sort of thing that's going to drive people completely insane because people - shockingly enough - do not like discussing those sorts of ripoff deals. And it leads to all sorts of bad feelings all around, and plenty of "ha ha told you so" absurd posts when scenario #1 happens and folks don't recognize they were discussing scenario #2 and so of course they don't match.

Frankly, I think both Isles fans and Avs fans are losing track of the fact that those are two separate scenarios and should be discussed uninclusively; do not respond to discussion of one as though it was the other. The Isles do not have what it takes for Scenario #1. Stick to Scenario #2.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

In a vacuum Barzal and 1st is decent value, buuutt there's no way we should trade Duchene and not get a LHD in return.

Until we absolutely have no choice but to trade him and not get a LHD in return.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

You know, I actually found the "Ryan O'Reilly" megathread and did a little search for the name "Zadorov" to see what pops up. Funny to see Sabres fans post things like:



or



But here's my favorite, a Sabres fan proposes the following (and here's the link to follow along):

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=104156849&highlight=zadorov#post104156849



Subtract #10 and #21 and this is pretty much the exact trade that went down, right? How did Avalanche fans respond to this proposal?









What do you know - Avs fans were the ones rejecting Zadorov deals for ROR, not Sabres fans.

So, because Avs fans didn't want to include 10 OA, you think they were rejecting Zadorov? Your brain must be in amazing physical condition with all the mental gymnastics you force it to do.

 

[twostroke27]

In a vacuum Barzal and 1st is decent value, buuutt there's no way we should trade Duchene and not get a LHD in return.

I dunno. I get that our lhd pool is lacking but so was our RHD before the last two drafts. If they keep drafting properly it should be fine.

I guess I really have no idea how we could say no to that. We need top six forwards as much as defence and barzal could end up being a duchene replacement. I suppose I could eat crow if Sakic manages to get a lhd with top pairing potential, but I can't see duchene returning it at this point.

 

[Pure Slaughter Value]

What does Colorado have to add to get Hanifin? That seems to be the only LD that's "available" that fits the needs of both teams (but he's cost-controlled for way longer than Duchene)

 

[A Pointed Stick]

In a vacuum Barzal and 1st is decent value, buuutt there's no way we should trade Duchene and not get a LHD in return.

That is fair.

 

[cgf]

And what exactly did that o'reilly return do for the Avs?

It gave us an exciting young top 4 LHD with all the room in the world to continue developing at 22; Compher who looks like a great middle 6er and could even end up a legit top 6 guy with his skill, smarts & tenacity, our version of Beauvillier; a PWF prospect who just made the AHL allstar game in his first pro season, although he did slow down when that team went into the tank down the stretch; and a middle 6 PWF prospect who earned himself a spot on a scoring line for his second season at ND.

Which should help the organization a lot moving forward if current development trends hold. But primarily it got us Zadorov, who Buffalo fans had spent a year telling us was an absurd ask.