News Article: Dubas: unlikely Matthews and Marner would sign an extension before Oct. 3

[1specter]

Can people stop bringing up taxes? A millionaire professional athlete isn't going to be following the same basic taxation that a middle class person is going to be doing. The impact is not nearly as bad as media or fans assume.

And if you're going to argue taxes for Florida, I am going to respond with sponsorships/endorsements and USD to CAD conversion for Toronto players.

 

[Drytoast]

My point is there are more things in play here when considering the cap hits of individual players than just the Tax rate differentials, that you're attempting to address.

The Florida state tax might be influencing TB player contracts but Leafs signing of JT to the 2nd highest AAV contract in the NHL is driving their player contracts costs far more than any tax rate disadvantages. IMO

Tavares points is driving up Leafs costs far more than tax rates in comparison.

Marner might ask for $9.5 mil - $10 mil using the Kucherov contract, but he's only able to use that comparable in the first place because of JT inflating his point totals.

Without JT perhaps Point and Marner are both in the Draisaitl range of 8 X $8.5 mil, with the tax rate playing a very limited role in player contract costs.

Without JT Marner doesn't get 100 points but still asks for a 100+ points, Point contract.

That's without JT.

Of that have I have no doubt.

Matthews was always going to make 12.5 roughly. With or without JT because he always felt that he's near the ballpark of McDavid. A contract that the Leafs had nothing to do with.

I get your assumption that JT's contract could have an influence on an internal cap demand. However, it was widely rumored that Draisatl's contract was what influenced Nylander's camp. A contract the Leafs had nothing to do with signing. Negotiations are all based on comparable now. Outside of your hockey team. And places like Tampa can simply say, "well we can match you that player's take home pay with this amount. That puts the same amount of money in your pocket as XXX". Now that's much more simple for a player to understand and come to terms with than saying "Now if you factor in spending power of US dollars in a Canadian city this amount gives you the same spending power..." The player is likely thinking..."but I want to party in the states...I want the same kind of bling that guy has..."

Regardless. Whenever the tax conversation comes up from any ex hockey player turned analyst. They guarantee it is -100 percent- a factor for negotiations.

- is the team competitive, can I win?
- what is the tax rate?
- did I own bed sheets with this team's logo on it?

Those are the factors for players when choosing a destination or salary expectations.

 

[Loosie]

Where did you park your DeLorean @Drytoast ?

 

[Bluelines]

Had Tavares not signed in Toronto than Marner gets < Kucherov because his points off of JT goals reduce his production and his ask/comparables.

Also JT doesn't inflate the Leafs internal pay scale, while his on ice production is driving up Leafs cap costs.

Without JT , and 3 highest contracts

Matthews $11 mil
Marner @ $8.5 mil
Nylander @ $7 mil

Total = ~ $ 26.5 mil

Kucherov @ $9.5 mil
Stamkos @ $8.5 mil
Point @ $8 mil

Total = ~ $26 mil

Maybe its not the Tax rate, but rather the UFA inflationary spending on Tavares where Leafs were trying to get an advantage on TB talent wise that is now going to hurt them Cap wise as the consequences of that decision.

Without JT the cap hit is break-even. Perhaps you should view Leafs advantage over TB on talent level by having an extra star forward on the roster as the offset to higher cap hit as a result.

How many points does Kucherov get without Stamkos?

Why are we playing this game?

 

[Peasy]

I don't doubt for 1 second that Leafs high end players contract will be higher than TB.

I actually think its going look something like this for top 4 players

Matthews $12 mil
Tavares @ $11 mil
Marner @ $9.5-10 mil
Nylander @ $7 mil.

Total approximately $40 mil

vs.

Kucherov $9.5 mil
Stamkos @ $8.5 mil
Point @ $8.0 mil
Hedman $7.8 mil

Total approximately $34 mil

Theres no way that Point should get less than Stamkos. Hes already a better player than him.

 

[thewave]

Eh? A person needs somewhere to live.

You said housing is an investment, its not always a good one.

Naturally. If you don't like the market, lease. If you think it'll be a stable housing market, buy. You should be able to sell for what you paid most likely. If you buy a 15million dollar home, all bets are off. Not even that long ago 1.5m got you a pretty nice estate outside Ottawa. 1.5m in Toronto, nothing special. 1.5m in the peg probably gets you something custom and on the high end, but again, you could just lease. With playing in Toronto these guys just do some endorsements to cover it.

 

[Drytoast]

Where did you park your DeLorean @Drytoast ?

Ok we can revisit this debate after the summer is done and the numbers are in where Marner and Matthews comes in more than Point who out scored both of them in the reg season...

 

[thewave]

Ok we can revisit this debate after the summer is done and the numbers are in where Marner and Matthews comes in more than Point who out scored both of them in the reg season...

This debate is going to be a nightmare for Dubas.

Is league scoring up?

Nylander overpaid up expectations?

If Marner outscores Matthews??

Popcorn fest

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Can people stop bringing up taxes? A millionaire professional athlete isn't going to be following the same basic taxation that a middle class person is going to be doing. The impact is not nearly as bad as media or fans assume.

And if you're going to argue taxes for Florida, I am going to respond with sponsorships/endorsements and USD to CAD conversion for Toronto players.

You are right in that Leafs have and will offer non hockey related revenue contracts to players they want to make things work out with. But what if we did not have that extra non CAP revenue? It is still not fair on these large contracts that our guys are $2M less in after tax positions. So the 6 non tax US teams do have a very real and distinct advantage but only with respect to CAP negotiations. We pay over the CAP with non hockey related revenues to Florida corporations so it does even things out from a take home perspective. The fact remains that Leafs will report and maintain CAP related hockey related contracts to the NHL in accordance to the CBA. So teams like Tampa argue back that Leafs are using back channels to pay players more then the CAP and Leafs say they don't and it is impossible to prove one way or another unless a player tells them which they wouldn't. The NHL is acutely aware of the entire situation. It will be interesting times when players move towards a luxury tax system in next CBA. That gets rids of all this petty stuff and Leafs would be more than happy to pay the tax. It is like the Yankees the money is so unreal in the many hundreds of millions per year that the tax is like chump change.

 

[Peasy]

Can people stop bringing up taxes? A millionaire professional athlete isn't going to be following the same basic taxation that a middle class person is going to be doing. The impact is not nearly as bad as media or fans assume.

And if you're going to argue taxes for Florida, I am going to respond with sponsorships/endorsements and USD to CAD conversion for Toronto players.

Also the Leafs can give major signing bonuses which means the players can make more money sooner.

 

[1specter]

Also the Leafs can give major signing bonuses which means the players can make more money sooner.

Great point and something that I didn't even realize.

 

[Drytoast]

Also the Leafs can give major signing bonuses which means the players can make more money sooner.

Can Winnipeg?

Edmonton?

Ottawa?

Why does Tampa's market deserve a bias advantage? What has their market done for the league? Was it the market that kept us around for 100 years? Help us expand? Is their market the cornerstone of the league?

Why do they deserve a gd advantage?

 

[Loosie]

Ok we can revisit this debate after the summer is done and the numbers are in where Marner and Matthews comes in more than Point who out scored both of them in the reg season...

Point has 2 more points in one more game than Marner, but over all in their 3 years of ELC both have outscored Point. Matthews will likely make the most out of all of them mostly because of his potential and being #1 overall. His injuries has hampered his overall numbers but he's still a PPG player. If Matthews plays the full season he likely would have ended up with more points than both Point and Stamkos, given his production so far.

What we do know is that only Matthews and Marner are being talked about by the media about having astronomical contract demands, because it sells stories. No one is talking about Point because people don't care.

I have full faith in Dubas that things will work out just fine.

BTW: The Marner Jar – All Deposits Sent To SickKids Foundation

 

[Menzinger]

The tax issue is way overblown. Firstly, these guys play around 1/2 their games in a different tax region, and they’ve got high profile accountants taking advantage of things not realistically available to the average person.

Teams like Tampa have advantages that teams like Toronto simply can never have. Mainly 1) amazing weather 2)a low pressure playing environment 4) and still haviang a wealthy owner still willing to spend to compete. The Leafs have a wealthy owner but that’s it.

Toronto in turn will have advantages over a team like Winnipeg, so it’s not all doom and gloom.

 

[Erndog]

Theres no way that Point should get less than Stamkos. Hes already a better player than him.

Okay, so Tampa is at $34.5M then.

Better?

 

[Menzinger]

Kucherov‘A contract will also sat up more UFA years than even an 8 year Marner contract will. An advantage for the Leafs

 

[Mess]

How many points does Kucherov get without Stamkos?

Why are we playing this game?

Stamkos, Kucherov and Point are all drafted and developed TB players
&
Matthews, Marner and Nylander are all drafted and developed Toronto players.

The salary escalator in Leafs case is the UFA signing of JT and without him Leafs and TB top 3 forwards make about the same Cap wise.

 

[Mess]

Kucherov‘A contract will also sat up more UFA years than even an 8 year Marner contract will. An advantage for the Leafs

Kucherov 3 year ELC + 5 year 2nd contract + 8 year 3rd contract = 16 years of service
Marner 3 year ELC + 8 year 2nd contract = 11 years of service.

Are you saying Leafs have an advantage despite TB having their player for +5 more years service under contract?

Leafs are missing out on the 5 year X 2nd contract where Kuch took $7.5 mil AAV for (after 82 games 45- 46- 91 points season)

** That is best case scenario IF Marner signs for 8 years, and that isn't a guarantee.

 

[Menzinger]

Kucherov 3 year ELC + 5 year 2nd contract + 8 year 3rd contract = 16 years of service
Marner 3 year ELC + 8 year 2nd contract = 11 years of service.

Are you saying Leafs have an advantage despite TB having their player for +5 more years service under contract?

Leafs are missing out on the 5 year X 2nd contract where Kuch took $7.5 mil AAV for (after 82 games 45- 46- 91 points season)

** That is best case scenario IF Marner signs for 8 years, and that isn't a guarantee.

I’m talking about caphit. Tampa needed to pay extra for those extra UFA years. It’s the same for any contract.

 

[Mess]

I’m talking about caphit. Tampa needed to pay extra for those extra UFA years. It’s the same for any contract.

If Leafs pay Marner the Kucherov contract of $9.5 mil they're buying 4 years RFA & 4 years UFA and for TB they're buying 8 years of UFA status from Kucherov.

This is not advantage Leafs as UFA years are the most expensive so Leafs are paying significantly more.

Even more important still is TB got 5 years at $7.5 mil AAV and Leafs will be skipping this entire 2nd contract step if we're comparing Kuch and Marner 8 years deals.

 

[Menzinger]

If Leafs pay Marner the Kucherov contract of $9.5 mil they're buying 4 years RFA & 4 years UFA and for TB they're buying 8 years of UFA status from Kucherov.

This is not advantage Leafs as UFA years are the most expensive so Leafs are paying significantly more.

Even more important still is TB got 5 years at $7.5 mil AAV and Leafs will be skipping this entire 2nd contract step if we're comparing Kuch and Marner 8 years deals.

That’s not what I’m suggesting. Im saying the Leafs can use the UFA year difference to potentially pay Marner less than 9.5 per.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

The tax issue is way overblown. Firstly, these guys play around 1/2 their games in a different tax region, and they’ve got high profile accountants taking advantage of things not realistically available to the average person.

Teams like Tampa have advantages that teams like Toronto simply can never have. Mainly 1) amazing weather 2)a low pressure playing environment 4) and still haviang a wealthy owner still willing to spend to compete. The Leafs have a wealthy owner but that’s it.

Toronto in turn will have advantages over a team like Winnipeg, so it’s not all doom and gloom.

Every player has a different situation. Take Tavares as an example. A Canadian citizen who has his permanent residence in Toronto. He spends 3-4 months in US flying and playing in US tax districts which require him to pay US tax. The Leafs have to withhold as per the CRA based on income paid to him. Then Tavares has to have his US tax deferral corporation(s) accepted and approved by CRA. Then he has to get his money back on the deferrals from CRA. Sure he has the big $$$ to pay big fees to KPMG to do it all for him. But the guy making $1M (or even $70K in minors like my kid) per isn't going to spend $250,000 to do that work. Now if you change the name from Tavares to Matthews well it is entirely different because he is a US citizen with permanent residence in Arizona for more than 6 months of year. Much much easier to prove than JT. He will have almost zero issues getting his money back from CRA and then paying IRS/state at lower rate. The whole issue is a mess and very very complicated.

So you are right it is not as simple to fix this stuff with existing CBA. It needs comprehensive change. Get away from a hard CAP. Move to a tax system. It still funds the poor teams but it keeps everything above board for the rich teams.

 

[Cotton]

Without JT Marner doesn't get 100 points but still asks for a 100+ points, Point contract.

That's without JT.

Of that have I have no doubt.

Matthews was always going to make 12.5 roughly. With or without JT because he always felt that he's near the ballpark of McDavid. A contract that the Leafs had nothing to do with.

I get your assumption that JT's contract could have an influence on an internal cap demand. However, it was widely rumored that Draisatl's contract was what influenced Nylander's camp. A contract the Leafs had nothing to do with signing. Negotiations are all based on comparable now. Outside of your hockey team. And places like Tampa can simply say, "well we can match you that player's take home pay with this amount. That puts the same amount of money in your pocket as XXX". Now that's much more simple for a player to understand and come to terms with than saying "Now if you factor in spending power of US dollars in a Canadian city this amount gives you the same spending power..." The player is likely thinking..."but I want to party in the states...I want the same kind of bling that guy has..."

Regardless. Whenever the tax conversation comes up from any ex hockey player turned analyst. They guarantee it is -100 percent- a factor for negotiations.

- is the team competitive, can I win?
- what is the tax rate?
- did I own bed sheets with this team's logo on it?

Those are the factors for players when choosing a destination or salary expectations.

Weird, because Bob Mackenzie during the JT interviews period before signing with the Leafs said the tax thing plays little to no part for these guys, from what he's been told.

 

[DarkKnight]

This line that league scoring is up is fine and dandy, but it really is irrelevant when you say "my client is 8th in league scoring", it's all relative and negates that argument.

 

[Nineteen67]

You are right in that Leafs have and will offer non hockey related revenue contracts to players they want to make things work out with. But what if we did not have that extra non CAP revenue? It is still not fair on these large contracts that our guys are $2M less in after tax positions. So the 6 non tax US teams do have a very real and distinct advantage but only with respect to CAP negotiations. We pay over the CAP with non hockey related revenues to Florida corporations so it does even things out from a take home perspective. The fact remains that Leafs will report and maintain CAP related hockey related contracts to the NHL in accordance to the CBA. So teams like Tampa argue back that Leafs are using back channels to pay players more then the CAP and Leafs say they don't and it is impossible to prove one way or another unless a player tells them which they wouldn't. The NHL is acutely aware of the entire situation. It will be interesting times when players move towards a luxury tax system in next CBA. That gets rids of all this petty stuff and Leafs would be more than happy to pay the tax. It is like the Yankees the money is so unreal in the many hundreds of millions per year that the tax is like chump change.

The Leafs can’t offer non hockey related contracts to players