News Article: Dubas: unlikely Matthews and Marner would sign an extension before Oct. 3

[Drytoast]

Fair enough, which tax haven teams have stacked their team?

seriously?

 

[Bluelines]

seriously?

yes

 

[Drytoast]

yes

Which team in the league currently has only 7 losses this season?

 

[thewave]

Why do I care about giving millionaires tax breaks? I'm already in one of the higher tax brackets, why would I want to pay more to cover the breaks we give these guys?

Yeah I don't really care to support liberal arts and crap either, but I seem to be forced to pay taxes that go into all sorts of programs which a very small demographic will ever appreciate.

What's more wasteful? 30m tax exemptions to hockey players that more than half of all Canadian follow, or 5m for a red painting of a box, a museum of underwear and an item labled "stuff" oh and a billion dollar fee for cancelled power plant.

Winning cups in Canada is a driver of the economy. Do you know how much merch is sold? That's tax revenue... Unfortunately we have been governed by morons for so long that moronic decisions self perpetuate.

 

[Mess]

There is grants us no more advantage than we already have. You want to work me through the logic as to how a recalculation of cap penalty after taxes penalizes teams that don't spend to cap ceiling?

What's next Cost of Living adjustments ??

An apartment in Toronto = $1 mil and the same apartment in Florida is $500k.

Leaf player "I'm going to need a higher salary than my comparables because their cost of living is much lower".

Marner can't take the Kucherov deal at $9.5 mil (even with taxes adjusted) because his cost of living eats up more of his take home pay.

 

[Drytoast]

Yeah I don't really care to support liberal arts and crap either, but I seem to be forced to pay taxes that go into all sorts of programs which a very small demographic will ever appreciate.

What's more wasteful? 30m tax exemptions to hockey players that more than half of all Canadian follow, or 5m for a red painting of a box, a museum of underwear and an item labled "stuff" oh and a billion dollar fee for cancelled power plant.

great. more shit for me to rage about.

 

[Drytoast]

What's next Cost of Living adjustments ??

An apartment in Toronto = $1 mil and the same apartment in Florida is $500k.

Leaf player "I'm going to need a higher salary than my comparables because their cost of living is much lower".

No. Just tax exemptions.

As you will see again this summer (if it isn't already apparent) two equally competitive teams in Tampa and Toronto, and in order to retain our talent we will struggle with math and the cap because our guys will come in well above their guys.

 

[thewave]

great. more **** for me to rage about.

Yeah but cutting players a break gives you slightly increased odds of winning a cup. It's a fair trade.

 

[thewave]

What's next Cost of Living adjustments ??

An apartment in Toronto = $1 mil and the same apartment in Florida is $500k.

Leaf player "I'm going to need a higher salary than my comparables because their cost of living is much lower".

Marner can't take the Kucherov deal at $9.5 mil (even with taxes adjusted) because his cost of living eats up more of his take home pay.

Housing is an investment. In 6 years Toronto properties went up in value upto 500%

If you think the cost of toothpaste is going to be factored in.. lol

 

[Bluelines]

What's next Cost of Living adjustments ??

An apartment in Toronto = $1 mil and the same apartment in Florida is $500k.

Leaf player "I'm going to need a higher salary than my comparables because their cost of living is much lower".

Marner can't take the Kucherov deal at $9.5 mil (even with taxes adjusted) because his cost of living eats up more of his take home pay.

True, then how about the weather, do we compensate each player for how many snowstorms or how many times it drops below -15? Do we compensate them for traffic, I'm sure traffic in Toronto is much worse than Calgary, so Toronto players need traffic compensation. Do we compensate Arizona, and LA teams more because , the majority of players come from Canada and its costly to keep a scouting staff in another country, if you are a Toronto scout you can just drive 5 hours in any direction a probably hit 30 rinks to scout. Like how far do we go trying to make every thing perfectly equal?

 

[Mess]

No. Just tax exemptions.

As you will see again this summer (if it isn't already apparent) two equally competitive teams in Tampa and Toronto, and in order to retain our talent we will struggle with math and the cap because our guys will come in well above their guys.

I don't doubt for 1 second that Leafs high end players contract will be higher than TB.

I actually think its going look something like this for top 4 players

Matthews $12 mil
Tavares @ $11 mil
Marner @ $9.5-10 mil
Nylander @ $7 mil.

Total approximately $40 mil

vs.

Kucherov $9.5 mil
Stamkos @ $8.5 mil
Point @ $8.0 mil
Hedman $7.8 mil

Total approximately $34 mil

 

[Bluelines]

Housing is an investment. In 6 years Toronto properties went up in value upto 500%

If you think the cost of toothpaste is going to be factored in.. lol

Try selling a 2 million dollar house in Winnipeg or Ottawa, then tell me again if its am appreciating investment.

 

[thewave]

Try selling a 2 million dollar house in Winnipeg or Ottawa, then tell me again if its am appreciating investment.

You were forced to buy it?

 

[Gabriel426]

You guys do realize that, the cap is there bc the owners are the ones who want it there. If it is up to the PA, they would love to have no cap at all.
One thing I think the players will be addressing will be teams like Arizona where they essentially are getting retired players with low real salary but high caphit to reach the salary floor.
Anyhow as for TB getting an advantage, I think it is their drafting that is making them into the best team instead of being a lower tax state. At least from memory, don’t think they have signed any top UFAs over the past years, they pretty much drafted everyone of their core players(not just top 5 picks). Their ability to resign top players with not over the market value is great but they have been a winning team and due to their talented pipeline, they have more bargaining power when it comes to negotiations.
Another note, when Stamkos signed his deal, he was coming offf yet another leg injuries and I beleive the rumour Leafs offered was around 10mil.
As for what Marner and Matthews will be signing.... I just have a feeling they will be signing for less than we think.

 

[Bluelines]

You were forced to buy it?

Eh? A person needs somewhere to live.

You said housing is an investment, its not always a good one.

 

[Drytoast]

I don't doubt for 1 second that Leafs high end players contract will be higher than TB.

I actually think its going look something like this for top 4 players

Matthews $12 mil
Tavares @ $11 mil
Marner @ $9.5-10 mil
Nylander @ $7 mil.

Total approximately $40 mil

vs.

Kucherov $9.5 mil
Stamkos @ $8.5 mil
Point @ $8.0 mil
Hedman $7.8 mil

Total approximately $34 mil

And this is your counter arguement as to why these teams should have that kind of gross advantage?

Had tavares signed with tampa he probably gets 9.

This advantage works for any player above the league salary min too nit just the big names.


But steve y was a genious getting these guys to sign for less. Ya right. Pul that shit off in montreal, mr genious.

 

[nuck]

The gov could also offer tax exemptions to players of a sport but charge a special pro sports flat rate tax that essentially covers the players tax. So it's a tax transfer scheme for cap based leagues. Teams can opt in or out.

IIRC they used to offer an income averaging annuity in Canada so that athletes and artists who have short term peaks in earning power could defer the tax obligations but the Feds took that away in the early 1980s. That is probably equitable for North Americans but with the current abundance of overseas players who return there after their careers are over their would not be a strong incentive for the Govt to give up their tax grab. They are finding ways to take more these days, not less.

I don't think it would be rocket science for some kind of tax adjustment cap factor to be considered in Canada because we only have two large market teams so making Toronto closer to Tampa makes Winnipeg, Edmonton, and Calgary more competitive as well. Even if it is only a limited reconciliation because of the varying systems, it still supports the reason for the cap. I would think we would have heard some noise about this from Canadian clubs though, if it was important to them.

 

[Loosie]

I don't doubt for 1 second that Leafs high end players contract will be higher than TB.

I actually think its going look something like this for top 4 players

Matthews $12 mil
Tavares @ $11 mil
Marner @ $9.5-10 mil
Nylander @ $7 mil.

Total approximately $40 mil

vs.

Kucherov $9.5 mil
Stamkos @ $8.5 mil
Point @ $8.0 mil
Hedman $7.8 mil

Total approximately $34 mil

Some of this has to do with WHEN the contract were signed. If Stamkos was up for a contract this year, he'd also be getting 10+ M a year.

 

[Drytoast]

Some of this has to do with WHEN the contract were signed. If Stamkos was up for a contract this year, he'd also be getting 10+ M a year.

Stamkos signed after mcdavid and drai. The leafs likely offere 10 he stayed for 8.5.

A year later and a comparable im tavares signs for 11.5. Same situation.

Are you telling me that the value of tht player went up 2 mil in 1 year!?

 

[Drytoast]

IIRC they used to offer an income averaging annuity in Canada so that athletes and artists who have short term peaks in earning power could defer the tax obligations but the Feds took that away in the early 1980s. That is probably equitable for North Americans but with the current abundance of overseas players who return there after their careers are over their would not be a strong incentive for the Govt to give up their tax grab. They are finding ways to take more these days, not less.

I don't think it would be rocket science for some kind of tax adjustment cap factor to be considered in Canada because we only have two large market teams so making Toronto closer to Tampa makes Winnipeg, Edmonton, and Calgary more competitive as well. Even if it is only a limited reconciliation because of the varying systems, it still supports the reason for the cap. I would think we would have heard some noise about this from Canadian clubs though, if it was important to them.

If the noise of this bias advantage gets loud enough the league will address it or they turn off fans from 2 of their three biggest markets as well as canada as a whole.

 

[Mess]

And this is your counter argument as to why the should have that kind of gross advantage?

Had tavares signed with tampa he probably gets 9..

Had Tavares not signed in Toronto than Marner gets < Kucherov because his points off of JT goals reduce his production and his ask/comparables.

Also JT doesn't inflate the Leafs internal pay scale, while his on ice production is driving up Leafs cap costs.

Without JT , and 3 highest contracts

Matthews $11 mil
Marner @ $8.5 mil
Nylander @ $7 mil

Total = ~ $ 26.5 mil

Kucherov @ $9.5 mil
Stamkos @ $8.5 mil
Point @ $8 mil

Total = ~ $26 mil

Maybe its not the Tax rate, but rather the UFA inflationary spending on Tavares where Leafs were trying to get an advantage on TB talent wise that is now going to hurt them Cap wise as the consequences of that decision.

Without JT the cap hit is break-even. Perhaps you should view Leafs advantage over TB on talent level by having an extra star forward on the roster as the offset to higher cap hit as a result.

 

[Drytoast]

Had Tavares not signed in Toronto than Marner gets < Kucherov because his points off of JT goals reduce his production and his ask/comparables.

Also JT doesn't inflate the Leafs internal pay scale.

Without JT , and 3 highest contracts

Matthews $11 mil
Marner @ $8.5 mil
Nylander @ $7 mil

Total = ~ $ 26.5 mil

Kucherov @ $9.5 mil
Stamkos @ $8.5 mil
Point @ $8 mil

Total = ~ $26 mil

Maybe its not the Tax rate, but rather the UFA inflationary spending on Tavares where Leafs were trying to get an advantage on TB talent wise that is now going to hurt them Cap wise as the consequences of that decision. Without JT the cap hit is break-even.

That all isnt my point. My point was he wouldnt ask for 11.5 in tampa it would have been less.

And of course that drove up the internal salary scale of the leafs. No tavares and marner likely doesnt get 100 points but sould still ask for point money.

Draisatl influenced nylanders asking price it wasnt jt

 

[Loosie]

Stamkos signed after mcdavid and drai. The leafs likely offere 10 he stayed for 8.5.

A year later and a comparable im tavares signs for 11.5. Same situation.

Are you telling me that the value of tht player went up 2 mil in 1 year!?

Wasn't Tavares offered more elsewhere? Cap going up does inflate contracts.

Also your dates are off, Stamkos signed his extension in 2016, McDavid and Driasial in 2017.

 

[Drytoast]

Wasn't Tavares offered more elsewhere? Cap going does inflate contracts.

Also your dates are off, Stamkos signed his extension in 2016, McDavid and Driasial in 2017.

Guess my memory is off.

But what will not be off is Point ending with more points but signing for less than Marner this summer.

 

[Mess]

That all isnt my point. My point was he wouldnt ask for 11.5 in tampa it would have been less.

And of course that drove up the internal salary scale of the leafs. No tavares and marner likely doesnt get 100 points but sould still ask for point money.

My point is there are more things in play here when considering the cap hits of individual players than just the Tax rate differentials, that you're attempting to address.

The Florida state tax might be influencing TB player contracts but Leafs signing of JT to the 2nd highest AAV contract in the NHL is driving their player contracts costs far more than any tax rate disadvantages. IMO

Tavares points is driving up Leafs costs far more than tax rates in comparison.

Marner might ask for $9.5 mil - $10 mil using the Kucherov contract, but he's only able to use that comparable in the first place because of JT inflating his point totals.

Without JT perhaps Point and Marner are both in the Draisaitl range of 8 X $8.5 mil, with the tax rate playing a very limited role in player contract costs.

Without needing to change the CBA, you need to pick if you would rather have more talent for more cap or equal talent for equal cap.