Drastic measures! (Not an overreaction :) )

SoundAndFury

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May 28, 2012
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Finland has no defensemen for the Canada B roster either, yet it hasn't missed a single semifinal in the course of the last decade.

Varlamov had Jussi Parkkila as his coach back in the Loko days.

A bunch of "lucky a~~" kids may be by far more pleasant to root for than the best players in the world playing 90s hockey.

Certain people deserve the blame for the current state of Russian hockey. The frustrating part is that they don't actually get it, they feel perfectly secure at their positions.

Well, probably due to the same reason they haven't played in any final either.

And yeah, I meant Bobrovsky. Even though their goalie coach was finnish, Loko is one of the best hockey schools in the country and actually a really good one by anyones standards.

And talking about the people who deserve the blame, I think they can feel safe for a long time because I don't think the public can even identify the problems carefully hidden behind the flashy stars like Ovechkin or Malkin, this thread is great piece of evidence.
 

obskyr

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Well, probably due to the same reason they haven't played in any final either.

And yeah, I meant Bobrovsky. Even though their goalie coach was finnish, Loko is one of the best hockey schools in the country and actually a really good one by anyones standards.

And talking about the people who deserve the blame, I think they can feel safe for a long time because I don't think the public can even identify the problems carefully hidden behind the flashy stars like Ovechkin or Malkin, this thread is great piece of evidence.

They actually made the final in Turin. After beating Krikunov's team 4-0 in the semis.

I don't think this particular thread may represent the general hockey audience in Russia, because at this point there's not too many people left who share the original poster's heavy pro-Bilyaletdinov bias. And, of course, it's pretty silly to assume that the issue with the Russian blue line depth is not obvious for anyone who follows hockey.
 

SoundAndFury

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of course, it's pretty silly to assume that the issue with the Russian blue line depth is not obvious for anyone who follows hockey.

You sure know better but looking from the outside it seems to me that Russians follow hockey very casually and it's not all that clear for them.

Would hiring coach from abroad be impossible?

Oh, you did? Sorry 'bout that.

You will sooner see uncle Sam coaching Les Canadiens De Montreal than Russia hiring a foreigner coach. But as Alessandro said, I don't think it matters that much.

Not a serious suggestion but what do you guys think about Belousov?
 

Atas2000

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Jan 18, 2011
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Medvedev and Tereschnko were deadweight, I argued this before the tournament and I was practically shot for saying it. Too much Kazan bias. Also it is the coaches fault because he never found chemistry in his guys. Everyone was on their own page and trying to carry the game as individuals. What made the Soviets so good was how they were able to play a complete team game, outsmarting the opponent with passes and chemistry -Russia needs to get back to that. No more taking turns trying to go around the world with the puck.

Medvedev actually had a good tournament.:shakehead

One of our better defencemen out there. I always wonder how ppl watch games through their prejudice glasses they put on even before the tournament starts.

Same goes for Tereschenko. Nobody claims he's a Malkin. He played pretty well, better than I expected. Actually Tereschenko, Popov and Medvedev showed some effort unlike some other ppl.

Stop that "Kazan bias" crap. There is no such thing. Nobody ever cares about where the coaches and players are from. We all want wins and the players best for the team.

Do you have a name of a better 4th line center for this team? Even if it doesn't matter now.

And stop that soviet thing too. This is over. If we want that again we need players attending soviet-like camps. It can't be done.
 

Atas2000

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Who?

Would hiring coach from abroad be impossible?

Possible, but unneccessary. Good coaches won't take the job as they are already working for their respective countries. The last thing we need is a mercenary coach.

So unless Scotty Bowman shows interest I won't support the idea. Also a foreign coach could give russian hockey that last kick. He wouldn't know or understand russian hockey. As much as I realize we can't have soviet hockey back I still don't want to lose the roots of our hockey culture completely.
 

Atas2000

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They actually made the final in Turin. After beating Krikunov's team 4-0 in the semis.

I don't think this particular thread may represent the general hockey audience in Russia, because at this point there's not too many people left who share the original poster's heavy pro-Bilyaletdinov bias. And, of course, it's pretty silly to assume that the issue with the Russian blue line depth is not obvious for anyone who follows hockey.

Please try to read my posts properly. Where do you find any Billlyaletdinov bias? You obviously see what you want to see and oversimplify.
 

Atas2000

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Well, probably due to the same reason they haven't played in any final either.

And yeah, I meant Bobrovsky. Even though their goalie coach was finnish, Loko is one of the best hockey schools in the country and actually a really good one by anyones standards.

And talking about the people who deserve the blame, I think they can feel safe for a long time because I don't think the public can even identify the problems carefully hidden behind the flashy stars like Ovechkin or Malkin, this thread is great piece of evidence.

This is oversimplifying too. You speak like you know all the problems better than anybody else, but you fail to realize that we have towork with the material we have. We can't magically create the players or coaches we need. And if you think some Tretiaks have anything to do with the team performance, you are really missing the point. The performance of the team was coahing+players' performance. The FHR is responsible for hockey devlopment in the future. If we talk about them, then we're probably talking 2022 or even 2026 Olympics. It's a serious issue, but not to be discussed here. Right now we have a pool of players and coaches we have to work with. We don't need endless sarcastic articles about Ovechkin's and Malkin's performance, but we need to send them a message. A message they will understand. And looking at their superstar status this message has to be different from what would work with 4th line guys. But nobody is saying those two were the only problem.

The major problem with the team as effort. Looking back at the Finland gae they tried to break through the finnish defence in the 2nd. It didn't work and they basically gave up. In a 2 goal game!!! With more than a whole period to play. Those are leadership issues,locker room issues, coaching issues.
 

Atas2000

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Love how none of the points are anything like "lets invest into junior development" or "get a decent development league" or "lets finally start coaching our Ds to move the puck and not just stand around". But nah, let's just blame few guys because essentially everything is fine.

Laughable reaction.

No matter how many wake-up calls Russians get, despite the fact that they have zero defensemen who would make even a second Canadian NT and that their starter never had a goalie coach until he went on to play in the NHL they still come up with some phony measures to magically improve things like "hey, let's get a bunch of kids out there instead of the greatest players in the world!".

Load of BS.

1.This thread is not about youth development.

2.Did you read my original post properly? I'm calling for a NT built around a U20 core. Yeah, noone is talking about developing young players.:help:


3.We have a pretty well working development league. Period.

4.Again D-men development is not somethigng that will help our D in the near future. If you want to talk abut the more distant future of our hockey, let's have another thread.

5.After a lost game there are always a few guys to blame. And even more so after two olympic tournements by basically the same guys. But where again do you find indication for "everything's fine"?

6.The "bunch of kids" you are talking about have consecutively beaten teams with: Hamilton, Murray, Galagher, Huberdeau, Jenner, Scheifele, Schwartz, Rielly, McKinnon on them. They are all up and coming NHLers already with a bright future.
 

SoundAndFury

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You speak like you know all the problems better than anybody else, but you fail to realize that we have towork with the material we have. We can't magically create the players or coaches we need.

Why? Why not work on getting the better material? Why not start creating coaches you need? It sure has worked out great for Sweden after they decided to address their core problem from level zero, revamped their junior system, got new coach developing system etc.

You can't have that only because you want quick results?

1.This thread is not about youth development.

2.Did you read my original post properly? I'm calling for a NT built around a U20 core. Yeah, noone is talking about developing young players.:help:

3.We have a pretty well working development league. Period.

4.Again D-men development is not somethigng that will help our D in the near future. If you want to talk abut the more distant future of our hockey, let's have another thread.

5.After a lost game there are always a few guys to blame. And even more so after two olympic tournements by basically the same guys. But where again do you find indication for "everything's fine"?

6.The "bunch of kids" you are talking about have consecutively beaten teams with: Hamilton, Murray, Galagher, Huberdeau, Jenner, Scheifele, Schwartz, Rielly, McKinnon on them. They are all up and coming NHLers already with a bright future.

1. It should be.

2. What NT has to do with developing young players? Not that much. Also, how many young players can NT accommodate? 5? 10? 10 is the absolute maximum no matter how pro-youth you are.

3. I hope this is a really bad joke.

4. Zadorov being developed in London will help in the near future. You can/should take your time with others.

5. You just said it yourself. See paragraph 3, mostly. Also, there is much more than a few guys, that's what I've been trying to tell.

6. Yeah and they are doing great in the KHL! How many minutes is Golubev averaging for Ak Bars? 9? 10?
 

Kharkov

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Bure

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Why? Why not work on getting the better material? Why not start creating coaches you need? It sure has worked out great for Sweden after they decided to address their core problem from level zero, revamped their junior system, got new coach developing system etc.

You can't have that only because you want quick results?



1. It should be.

2. What NT has to do with developing young players? Not that much. Also, how many young players can NT accommodate? 5? 10? 10 is the absolute maximum no matter how pro-youth you are.

3. I hope this is a really bad joke.

4. Zadorov being developed in London will help in the near future. You can/should take your time with others.

5. You just said it yourself. See paragraph 3, mostly. Also, there is much more than a few guys, that's what I've been trying to tell.

6. Yeah and they are doing great in the KHL! How many minutes is Golubev averaging for Ak Bars? 9? 10?

3. MHL is producing good players who are beating CHL "superstars". All my Canadian friends wonder where these random Undrafted Russians come from the past few wjc and I tell them Russia recently created a junior league and it's working well.
 

Jussi

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Bilyaletdinov is a great coach. But he's a клубовый coach, not a national team coach. Znarok is imho pretty much the same. I think that he could be even worse than Bill because he will once again force our players to the stuff we did in the last four years. It doesn't work with Team Russia. It can work with Ak Bars Kazan, with Dynamo Moscow, but it doesn't work with Team Russia not at U-20, nor at senior level.

It'is kind of odd with Bilyaletdinov, because he's got loads of experience from abroad and was an assistant coach in the NHL even so he should know about that culture as well. Defensive minded tactics usually speak of huge pressure and trying to play it safe. It is also curious how we went nearly the same route as Bykov. He lead the team to gold at Worlds in 2008 but already a yer later, the team was playing more defensively and it kept on getting more like that. Bilyaletdinov lucked out in 2012 but last year already there were similar signs in the air.
 

kp61c

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so now we are going to build a team around kuznetsov and tarasenko with bragin as a headcoach? damn, if such propositions are seriously considered we really hit rock bottom
our youth development sucks and talantwise there'll be a huge drop after the current generations of players. luckily, the nhl may not allow its players to participate in the nest olympics. that's our only hope:nod:
 
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SoundAndFury

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3. MHL is producing good players who are beating CHL "superstars". All my Canadian friends wonder where these random Undrafted Russians come from the past few wjc and I tell them Russia recently created a junior league and it's working well.

Very few players from WJC roster play in the MHL. That's because they are too strong for that league. And that's one of its problems. There are more. We kind of discussed it on the KHL board in the "Imports are dominating the KHL" (or something similar) thread.
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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how many times we won against sweden in the last ten games with them at the wjc again?

Take off the Russian chronic pessimism. Our junior production is more than fine, in par with the best countries of the world and right now even better than Canada. The problem is that we fail in turning these kids into true pro players. Sure of course a lot of them become good (Kuzya, Vova, Panarin, Zaitsev, etc.), but depth-wise, we're suffering.
And frankly I fail to see how filling KHL teams with gastarbeiters can help in solving the problem...
MHL and KHL have too many teams. As far as I hate it, probably cutting a couple of Russian KHL teams might be not a bad idea, but on the other hand, if instead of having our players play they'll be calling cheap gastarbeiters, then I don't see how the problem can be solved.
 

SoundAndFury

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Yeah, we win medals at any WJC because we corrupt refs...

This is a nonsensical argument and you know it. WJC is basically a 5 team competition nowadays. Furthermore, one of the 5 countries can't seriously compete year in and year out because it has population as big as St. Petersburg. Sweden is a relatively small country too but they are a true hockey giant so I'll cut some slack here for Russia. But, at the end, it takes something big (terrible goaltending, bad luck getting your opponent, etc) NOT to get a medal there for a country with a player pool as big Russia's.

So, what do these medals mean to you?
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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This is a nonsensical argument and you know it. WJC is basically a 5 team competition nowadays. Furthermore, one of the 5 countries can't seriously compete year in and year out because it has population as big as St. Petersburg. Sweden is a relatively small country too but they are a true hockey giant so I'll cut some slack here for Russia. But, at the end, it takes something big (terrible goaltending, bad luck getting your opponent, etc) NOT to get a medal there for a country with a player pool as big Russia's.

So, what do these medals mean to you?

Last 4 years only Russia medalled each time. It means nothing? I don't think so.
 

SoundAndFury

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Take off the Russian chronic pessimism. Our junior production is more than fine, in par with the best countries of the world and right now even better than Canada. The problem is that we fail in turning these kids into true pro players.

Pretty much agree with everything I've deleted but this part is not true. It's not fine. Someone successfully turning into a pro means he had good habits in junior and that's something Russians don't have. Lets take the defensemen problem because it's the most glaring one. The fact that Russian Ds manage to get away with not being able to move the puck in the junior level (as high as WJC) doesn't mean they don't have that problem at that point. It's just that their opponents are not fast enough and not tactically good enough to expose it yet. But it's there.

And it only becomes so evident when they reach the pro level and it becomes evident you can't trust them for more than 10 minutes on the ice. Hell, for the most part you can't even trust them to play 10 minutes. Yudin steps on the ice for SKA I know it's a disaster waiting to happen if the opponent would manage to apply the sustained pressure. In the regular season for a team like SKA it's fine, they can suck it up but will he be trusted to even step on the ice in the playoffs?

And it's the same with many things. Weak work ethic and dumb plays of forwards, weak technique of goaltenders.. These issues are there from the very early age the fact that they are not exposed till later doesn't make them not a junior development flaw.

Last 4 years only Russia medalled each time. It means nothing? I don't think so.

That's why I asked, "what do these medals mean to you"? I don't just say that, I really want to know.
 

Peter25

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Let's talk about the next Olympics. How will Russia look then?

Talent-wise Russia will probably be worse in 2018 than it is now.

Datsyuk and Markov will not be there. They will be 40 in 2018.

Kovalchuk will be 35 in 2018 then and his career is slowing down due to injuries. I doubt he will play.

Ovechkin will be 33 and Malkin will be 32 in 2018. They should still be around in 2018 but they will probably have declined from their current form.

Radulov will also be 32 and he should still be around. He is playing a less grueling style of play in the KHL which should help the longevity of his career. But Radulov is neither going to improve, but rather decline.

Hopefully Kuznetsov can turn his career around because Russia is going to need him. He is better and more talented than Tarasenko, who I don't think will ever be an impact player for national team. Nichushkin is a big question mark. I don't know if he will turn into a new superstar or just a solid power winger. But he should be a key player for Russia in 2018, because Russia does not have too many young wingers to select with.

Anisimov will be 30 and should be a serviceable player for Russia in 2018. Hopefully he will be nothing more than a 4rd line center though, but that would require one or two centers to come from 1995-1998 age groups who are good enough to play ahead of Anisimov.

Defenders Tyutin, Nikulin and Medvedev will (hopefully :laugh: ) be gone by 2018. Russia is desperate for good young defensemen. Emelin and Nikitin will be 32 in 2018 and could crack the roster. Maybe Belov too, who will also be 32 then (1986 was a great age group for Russia).

Zadorov and Voynov should play in leadership roles. Hopefully Kulikov and Orlov have managed to turn their careers around. They will be in their prime in 2018.

But you have to admit that this defense looks shaky and Russia needs Zadorov and one or two more defensemen from 1995-1998 age groups to really step up before 2018.
 

Alessandro Seren Rosso

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Pretty much agree with everything I've deleted but this part is not true. It's not fine. Someone successfully turning into a pro means he had good habits in junior and that's something Russians don't have. Lets take the defensemen problem because it's the most glaring one. The fact that Russian Ds manage to get away with not being able to move the puck in the junior level (as high as WJC) doesn't mean they don't have that problem at that point. It's just that their opponents are not fast enough and not tactically good enough to expose it yet. But it's there.

And it only becomes so evident when they reach the pro level and it becomes evident you can't trust them for more than 10 minutes on the ice. Hell, for the most part you can't even trust them to play 10 minutes. Yudin steps on the ice for SKA I know it's a disaster waiting to happen if the opponent would manage to apply the sustained pressure. In the regular season for a team like SKA it's fine, they can suck it up but will he be trusted to even step on the ice in the playoffs?

Well, first of all let me say that you didn't pick the correct example because SKA is a very stacked team and in each stacked team of the world juniors struggle, being it the KHL, the NHL or the English Ice Hockey League. But if we don't focus on a single player, yes, I can see what you mean.
But you confirm what I'm saying. We don't manage to turn talented kids into pro players. Juniors vs juniors we're fine, then, everyone for themselves!
This is why I say to cut KHL and MHL teams, and not allow the flow of gastarbeiters too many people want (social envy for big paychecks of Russian players perhaps?)
Also... I dunno what can be done... but the annual exodus to the CHL didn't exactly help our hockey...
 

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