Draft, Muckler says BOG favour 30 balls in a bin

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kdb209

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Jan 26, 2005
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PeterSidorkiewicz said:
I was just curious what you meant by Americans love to think they love the midwest? Didn't get that. Also, I think it depends WHERE in America you live to know if you care about Canada or what comes out of it. If you live in New Mexico and Nevada, probably not, but I assure you people who live in Detroit and Buffalo and other northern cities close to Canada do know a lot about the country. Because to them Canada is less foreign than a place like Texas because they're so close and frequent there more often.

My guess that the American's love the Midwest comment comes from Baseball. Ask most Americans to list their favorite teams and invariably the Cubs or Cardinals (but rarely both) will come up. Maybe it's because they both draw from a very large geographic area. Maybe it's because the "heartland" is part of the American psyche. Funny, I can't think of any American League team with that kind of broad general appeal. The Yankees, no, thats more a love/hate frontrunner kind of thing. The Bosox, maybe. As an aside, although I'm a Sox fan, I'm kind of sad to see them finally win one. As someone observed the day after game 7 - "Last week they were a Greek Tragedy. Now they're just another team".

But I think the poster's original point holds. No, most Americans do not know about / care about Canada. The Detroits and Buffalos are the exception, not the rule. You ask most people in New York, Boston, Chicago, LA, etc, and you'll get "Oh, yeah, Canada, that's up north somewhere isn't it".

Now this may not be true for hockey fans, but hockey fans are a small minority in the States.

If Crosby gets drafted by a Canadian team and lives up to the hype, the general reaction in the States will be yawn. Look - how many people here knew who Gretzky was before he got traded to the Kings.
 

Jaded-Fan

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If you asked the average American who OUR Vice President was somewhere well over half would not know.

So don't feel too bad that many of us do not realize that PePe Le Peu has been your Premier for years . . . or was it that the guy who does that Doonesbury cartoon? Damn, never mind . . . .
 

Chayos

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FLYLine4LIFE said:
Such a horrible idea. Bad teams get good draft picks, its as simple as that, that is how the bad teams get better in the future. Because of the lockout that contempt just gets thrown out the door? If this was any other non-Crosby year this wouldn't even be an issue. The league really is a joke.

Why should bad teams be rewarded now for being bad then. They already were given high draft picks as compenstion for those bad years. "power" teams are looking at rosters with their stars aged and gone in this lockout year so why punish them now. I am an oiler fan, but still would rather have Crosby in Colorado or detroit than build a dynsasty out of columbus or Atlanta just because they were a bad team for a while.

Most of the teams at the bottom end of the league are the same ones that needed this lockout, so they should realize the big money teams went to bat for them at great costs financially so a 30 ball draft would be better for the league morale.
 

HSHS

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kdb209 said:
But I think the poster's original point holds. No, most Americans do not know about / care about Canada. The Detroits and Buffalos are the exception, not the rule. You ask most people in New York, Boston, Chicago, LA, etc, and you'll get "Oh, yeah, Canada, that's up north somewhere isn't it".

To quote Robin Williams: "Canada is like a really tiny loft over a great party"

Please don't take that serious... just a joke but in every joke there is a hint of perceived truth (truth = americans veiwpoint).

BTW: GO Yankees!!!
 

HSHS

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Jaded-Fan said:
If you asked the average American who OUR Vice President was somewhere well over half would not know.

So don't feel too bad that many of us do not realize that PePe Le Peu has been your Premier for years . . . or was it that the guy who does that Doonesbury cartoon? Damn, never mind . . . .


Many David Letterman skits show this.... sad.
 

EroCaps

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Aug 24, 2003
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Epsilon said:
I doubt that, I think most Americans have heard of Darth Vader...

Heavy breathing, low levels of existing humanity, rarely seen during daylight hours...and bearing resemblence to an unmasked Darth Vader. Good Call.

As for the 30 ball lottery...I'm cautiously intrigued. It would make it far less likely Crosby go to a less palatable team, (the flightless fowl for example), while likely hurting my home team's draft options.

It could be wild though. I hope they televise any drawing.
 

Jessie Lumsden

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Apr 7, 2005
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why not just make it a 19 year old draft from now on, that way there is no debate about how to order a draft.
 

Steve L*

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EroCaps said:
It could be wild though. I hope they televise any drawing.
So do I, in England they televise the cup drawings and its great not knowing who youre going to get.

The NHL needs to have the teams in the bowl and pick #30 down until they have 2 balls ready for the #1 pick. Imagine the tension of the teams and fans involved when you get down to the last few balls!
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Munchausen said:
The draft was at first a mean to create a cycle in hockey and help the teams in difficulty, so they can "re-do" themselves through the draft. If you take away this only purpose just because Crosby is making everybody lose their marbles, might as well call it a night on the entry draft system altogether and declare 18yo free agents up for grab to anyone.

No matter the stupid excuse you come up with, there is not one single legit reason for this draft not to be at least weighted in the bottom teams' favor. But unity is likely already over among owners. Sharks will be sharks, and every owner will want Crosby on their team to kick start the new era, no matter what logic says about it, so be sure an equal chance lottery is a likely scenario April 20th.

Hate to break it to you, but logic dictates this should be an equal chance lottery for all 30 NHL teams.

And this isn't someone with any particular interest for any NHL team, or someone who is particularly buying in the Crosby hype talking.
 

EroCaps

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Steve L said:
So do I, in England they televise the cup drawings and its great not knowing who youre going to get.

The NHL needs to have the teams in the bowl and pick #30 down until they have 2 balls ready for the #1 pick. Imagine the tension of the teams and fans involved when you get down to the last few balls!

I like that idea a lot.

Do they only do that for the FA Cup? I remember watching an FA Cup drawing on a soccer channel a month or so back and it was intense.
 

codswallop

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Hate to break it to you, but logic dictates this should be an equal chance lottery for all 30 NHL teams.

And this isn't someone with any particular interest for any NHL team, or someone who is particularly buying in the Crosby hype talking.

Truthfully, a logical argument could be made for both a weighted draft and an equal draft. There are enough legitimate reasons on both sides to come up with a good argument for each. I guess for us at the moment, it pretty much comes down to our own personal feelings about the issue.

That being said, I'm in favor of some sort of weighted draft. Not that any solution they ultimately come up with is going to be "fair", I just happen to believe that a weighted lottery is about as close as they will be able to come to fair.

But even though my favorite team would have an excellent chance at a top pick with the weighted draft, I'm not going to complain about it if they decide to go with a random, equal type draft. I can see why the might go that route; if they do, so be it.

One thing is for sure though; whatever decision is made about the draft, you're certainly going to see a lot of unhappy campers.
 

PecaFan

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So, how about somebody actually dish out this so called logical argument for a "30 team with identical chances" draft?

Because we sure as hell haven't seen one yet on this board.
 

Steve L*

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EroCaps said:
I like that idea a lot.

Do they only do that for the FA Cup? I remember watching an FA Cup drawing on a soccer channel a month or so back and it was intense.
They do it for all cups, its great to see youre going to get, hopefully millions of NHL fans will get the same anticipation and tension for the #1 pick.
 

JohnnyReb

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PecaFan said:
Which is why I keep referring to "spirit of the draft". The whole point of the draft is to improve the teams which have had the least on ice success in the past.

I disagree slightly. The "spirit of the draft" is to promote parity. Teams who have done badly in the past, get a chance to draft and acquire better players. In theory, over time, this will make them better, and the teams that are drafting lower, poorer.

The problem with this year, is that nobody knows just who would have done well last year, and who wouldn't have. Its easy to say "Toronto, Detroit, Colorado etc would still be great" but that's ignoring the economic system the NHL is trying to put in place. They say they need a salary cap (with the twin floor) to reduce the disparity between the haves and have nots, which will increase parity and on-ice competitiveness. If that system had of been in place, then there is absolutely no way of knowing whether or not Colorado, Toronto, Detroit, etc would have been good. In fact, one could argue that they wouldn't be, because their strongest asset - money - would have been taken away from them. These teams would have had to cut upwards of $30 million from their payrolls, while teams like Atlanta, and Pittsburgh and Columbus, would have been adding $10-20 million.

Take $25 million in payroll off of Colorado, and add it to Atlanta and Columbus, and tell me which teams would have been better.

Everybody would have been equal, and if the NHL owners get their way, everybody will be equal whenever hockey starts back up. That's the point of the lockout, no?

A weighted lottery would be like saying to a team like Toronto, or Detroit "you have to cut away 5-7 of your best players, so that every other team can be as good as you, and you're going to get the worst picks in the draft." This would actually DEFEAT the "spirit of the draft."
 

signalIInoise

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kdb209 said:
My guess that the American's love the Midwest comment comes from Baseball.

From my intent, no -- though I guess it plays a peripheral part. Sociologically speaking, the American psyche is still very enamored with the Norman Rockwell view of America, and by and large much of America still thinks of Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa and Indiana as tv's Mayberry. Politically, in the minds of most of America the 'heartland' has a red state patina over it, though in reality, along with the industrialized northeast, it's really the most truly progressive region in the country. Most of America would be aghast to realize the real makeup of the upper Midwest isn't as mythic or timeless as they believe.

kdb209 said:
If Crosby gets drafted by a Canadian team and lives up to the hype, the general reaction in the States will be yawn. Look - how many people here knew who Gretzky was before he got traded to the Kings.

Agreed. This is what I'm getting at. Crosby, Pouillot, Brule and Johnson can be stars in America *only* if they're based in an American city. In all reality, even if they do land there, they're unlikely to be Tiger Woods/Brett Favre/Kobe Bryant level stars except on a regional level. They *do* have the power to reinvigorate a franchise, perhaps even a division where there's enough latent rivalry to jumpstart.

This is why, even though I feel to my bones that Wirtz doesn't deserve him, that I hope that Chicago lands Crosby. I am not a Blackhawks fan or a Red Wings fan (I'm a Sabres/Sens fan). If Crosby lives up to his hype, he can stoke the old Wings/Hawks rivalry back to early Roenick levels. By stoking the fire in Chicago (sorry Chicagolanders for the reference), you can stoke the fire throughout the Midwest and by extension all the States.
 

Munchausen

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Hate to break it to you, but logic dictates this should be an equal chance lottery for all 30 NHL teams.

And this isn't someone with any particular interest for any NHL team, or someone who is particularly buying in the Crosby hype talking.

Thanks for breaking it to me Vlad, but do you have arguments to go with that thought? Cause all I can answer to this is "no it doesn't". To which you might want to answer "yes it does". We ain't going far at that pace.

I'm still waiting to hear a valid explanation as to why this should be an equal chance lottery. I've seen none so far in this thread other than "please god let the team I cheer for have a crack at the phenom kid".
 

JohnnyReb

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Munchausen said:
Thanks for breaking it to me Vlad, but do you have arguments to go with that thought? Cause all I can answer to this is "no it doesn't". To which you might want to answer "yes it does". We ain't going far at that pace.

I'm still waiting to hear a valid explanation as to why this should be an equal chance lottery. I've seen none so far in this thread other than "please god let the team I cheer for have a crack at the phenom kid".

As I said in my post, the whole point of the lockout was/is to ensure parity, and on-ice competitive balance. Teams will not be able to outspend each other, and all teams will be within a rather narrow salary range.

Since that's the case, how can anyone say that teams that did well in the past would have done well in the last season, and thus don't deserve a chance at the number one pick? If Detroit has a $40 million payroll, and Atlanta has a $35 million payroll, which team do you think would have done better?

Essentially the NHL wants to start over. Remember all that talk about dispersal drafts, and such? If you were starting a league, would you weight your draft in favor of one team or another?
 

Jaded-Fan

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JohnnyReb said:
I disagree slightly. The "spirit of the draft" is to promote parity. Teams who have done badly in the past, get a chance to draft and acquire better players. In theory, over time, this will make them better, and the teams that are drafting lower, poorer.

The problem with this year, is that nobody knows just who would have done well last year, and who wouldn't have. Its easy to say "Toronto, Detroit, Colorado etc would still be great" but that's ignoring the economic system the NHL is trying to put in place. They say they need a salary cap (with the twin floor) to reduce the disparity between the haves and have nots, which will increase parity and on-ice competitiveness. If that system had of been in place, then there is absolutely no way of knowing whether or not Colorado, Toronto, Detroit, etc would have been good. In fact, one could argue that they wouldn't be, because their strongest asset - money - would have been taken away from them. These teams would have had to cut upwards of $30 million from their payrolls, while teams like Atlanta, and Pittsburgh and Columbus, would have been adding $10-20 million.

Take $25 million in payroll off of Colorado, and add it to Atlanta and Columbus, and tell me which teams would have been better.

Everybody would have been equal, and if the NHL owners get their way, everybody will be equal whenever hockey starts back up. That's the point of the lockout, no?

A weighted lottery would be like saying to a team like Toronto, or Detroit "you have to cut away 5-7 of your best players, so that every other team can be as good as you, and you're going to get the worst picks in the draft." This would actually DEFEAT the "spirit of the draft."

Where in the hell do you get those numbers from?

That is the big market myth that keeps popping up on these boards with no substantiation at all ever given for those wild numbers thrown around. A twenty four percent roll back and 42 million cap means that no one loses a player. This is a crap argument.
 

mooseOAK*

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PecaFan said:
So, how about somebody actually dish out this so called logical argument for a "30 team with identical chances" draft?

Because we sure as hell haven't seen one yet on this board.
I believe that someone must have mentioned that there is no season to base draft rankings on.
 
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