GDT: Draft lottery thread

[SimonEdvinssonAtSix]

Here's the definition for you again
Tanking (sports) - Wikipedia
Yzerman intentionally iced a losing team.

Yzerman did not intentionally ice a losing team, he had no choice at all.
He also made moves with the intention of making the team better given the assets he had available to him both in the offseason and during the regular season.

You can't seem to grasp it though. So you do you man.

 

[MBH]

Yzerman did not intentionally ice a losing team, he had no choice at all.
He also made moves with the intention of making the team better given the assets he had available to him both in the offseason and during the regular season.

You can't seem to grasp it though. So you do you man.

He KNEW it was going to lose.
He ASKED fans to be patient because he wasn't going to attempt to improve it.
When the team totally tanked, he made few moves to change course - and traded away NHL caliber talent for draft picks - the f***ing definition of tanking.

You're adding your own special definitions to "tanking." And yet you're being snide to me. Go figure.

 

[TheMule93]

Yzerman did not intentionally ice a losing team, he had no choice at all.
He also made moves with the intention of making the team better given the assets he had available to him both in the offseason and during the regular season.

You can't seem to grasp it though. So you do you man.

He had every intention to ice a losing team. We're rebuilding.

He didn't sell of mantha, Larkin, Hronek, etc to force a tank though. We were just naturally horrendous.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

He KNEW it was going to lose.
He ASKED fans to be patient because he wasn't going to attempt to improve it.
When the team totally tanked, he made few moves to change course - and traded away NHL caliber talent for draft picks - the f***ing definition of tanking.

You're adding your own special definitions to "tanking." And yet you're being snide to me. Go figure.

Pot meet kettle... He traded for the fourth best forward on the team. Fabbri was better than AA, so if anything he actually improved the talent during the balance of the season.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Lose games 4-1 with less bad contracts and more roster flexibility

Lose games 2-1 with more bad contracts and less roster flexibility

I’m OK with option A.

Vancouver signed some bad contracts. They are proof of how quick you can improve if you have some depth to back up the young talent you draft.
Bad contracts don’t matter much when you have a bunch of ELC and RFA talent.

 

[jkutswings]

He KNEW it was going to lose.
He ASKED fans to be patient because he wasn't going to attempt to improve it.
When the team totally tanked, he made few moves to change course - and traded away NHL caliber talent for draft picks - the f***ing definition of tanking.

You're adding your own special definitions to "tanking." And yet you're being snide to me. Go figure.

Let's remove the word "tanking" from the conversation, since that seems to be a hot button that nobody can completely agree on.

Yzerman committed no actions that the NHL would seem dishonest in terms of fair competition. Based on the roster he had to work with, his cap space, the injuries, and the existing prospects (with associated value to Detroit versus the rest of the league)...

... To be dishonest from a competitive standpoint, Yzerman would have had to bench a healthy Bernier to let Howard play all the games (for the best chance at losing).

There's a difference between a patient having a Do Not Resuscitate order when they're already dying, and a healthy patient shooting themselves in the foot. The lottery was only designed for the latter, and Detroit had no realistic options to prop up their roster more than they did.

 

[Larkin2AA]

The Red Wings didn't actively tank, they were just bad. If the season ended before the trade deadline when they sold off Athanasiou and Green, they were still bad. If the Red Wings "actively tanked" then I guess you'd have to hold that definition to San Jose (who didn't actively tank before the season), as well as New Jersey (who didn't actively tank before the season). Both teams were bad. When you don't have enough talent on the roster to sell off to acquire talent in the draft then your team is just bad. If the Red Wings were to sell off Mantha, Bertuzzi, Larkin, Zadina, or hell, even Bernier, then they actively tanked.

 

[MBH]

Let's remove the word "tanking" from the conversation, since that seems to be a hot button that nobody can completely agree on.

Yzerman committed no actions that the NHL would seem dishonest in terms of fair competition. Based on the roster he had to work with, his cap space, the injuries, and the existing prospects (with associated value to Detroit versus the rest of the league)...

... To be dishonest from a competitive standpoint, Yzerman would have had to bench a healthy Bernier to let Howard play all the games (for the best chance at losing).

There's a difference between a patient having a Do Not Resuscitate order when they're already dying, and a healthy patient shooting themselves in the foot. The lottery was only designed for the latter, and Detroit had no realistic options to prop up their roster more than they did.

Right. And I don't even think that's dishonest.
The year before last, our IR down the stretch was a joke.

But who cared? Nobody. Because we sucked. And the veterans who sat out sucked. And - weirdly - we got better with all those injuries, going 500 down the stretch.

If the Penguins crashed out of the race and gave up, would it be dishonest to sit out Crosby or Malkin given the injury history they've had?
You're the team. You're paying them. If they're willing to sit out and rest up and heal, what's so wrong?
You've probably traded away some of the best players they had to play with by this point.
The only people it's unfair to are the fans in Pittsburgh who pay money to see the game.
And maybe they'll buy into it for the chance to get Lafreniere.

 

[Frk It]

Vancouver signed some bad contracts. They are proof of how quick you can improve if you have some depth to back up the young talent you draft.
Bad contracts don’t matter much when you have a bunch of ELC and RFA talent.

Ok, well as a 1st year GM (here) that inherited a roster with 4.25 million dollar Abdelkader, 5.25 million dollar Nielsen, 4.25 million dollar Ericsson and 4.00 million dollar Howard... I don’t blame Yzerman from refraining on spending a bunch of $ in free agency his first year on the job. Let’s see with some off these deals coming off the books.

 

[Frk It]

He KNEW it was going to lose.
He ASKED fans to be patient because he wasn't going to attempt to improve it.
When the team totally tanked, he made few moves to change course - and traded away NHL caliber talent for draft picks - the f***ing definition of tanking.

You're adding your own special definitions to "tanking." And yet you're being snide to me. Go figure.

So you want someone totally oblivious as to what quality of roster they have, and to make irresponsible roster decisions when it’s clear the season is lost.... got it.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

The Red Wings didn't actively tank, they were just bad. If the season ended before the trade deadline when they sold off Athanasiou and Green, they were still bad. If the Red Wings "actively tanked" then I guess you'd have to hold that definition to San Jose (who didn't actively tank before the season), as well as New Jersey (who didn't actively tank before the season). Both teams were bad. When you don't have enough talent on the roster to sell off to acquire talent in the draft then your team is just bad. If the Red Wings were to sell off Mantha, Bertuzzi, Larkin, Zadina, or hell, even Bernier, then they actively tanked.

Agreed.

It's looking a few seasons down the road and prioritizing building a winning team then versus winning games this season.

Sure Yzerman could've signed some UFAs to help the team lose less. The thing is you don't usually get those guys for single seasons and you don't want to saddle the team for multiple seasons with bad contracts from older players who are no longer performing (sound familiar?) just as your young players are getting good.

 

[SimonEdvinssonAtSix]

He KNEW it was going to lose.
He ASKED fans to be patient because he wasn't going to attempt to improve it.
When the team totally tanked, he made few moves to change course - and traded away NHL caliber talent for draft picks - the f***ing definition of tanking.

You're adding your own special definitions to "tanking." And yet you're being snide to me. Go figure.

KNOWING something is not INTENTION.
We all knew the Wings were going to suck.
I knew, so did you, so did Yzerman.
He asked fans to be patient because the writing has been on the wall for years now.
We lack talent at every position. We lack in NHL regulars AND our prospect pool.
There is no moves Yzerman could have made to make us a competitive team, and you know it.

 

[raymond23]

Anyone else listen to Spittin Chiclets?

I tried to listen to their new episode this morning but had to shut it off when they got to talking about the lottery results. RA thinks the bad publicity is good for the league and Biz asks why teams should be rewarded for being bad. Talking like it’s not a big deal.

What people don’t seem to understand is that it’s not about rewarding the teams, ITS ABOUT REWARDING THE FANS. You know, the fans who have to suffer through years of their favorite team being miserable, all while continuing to make the league money.

I wish I could snap my fingers and make this lottery shit go away. Everyone trying to get all deep and fancy with “solutions” for a problem that barely even existed. If you are for this lottery system you can kindly f*** off.

Sorry got a little mad there but it’s not fair.

 

[TheOtherOne]

I was just looking at old drafts out of curiosity for what happens at 4.

2013 NHL Draft Prospect Rankings
Based on this, every year from 13-19, someone "dropped" to 4. For most years this was because the #3 was not unanimous. For '13, the top 3 unanimously included Seth Jones who dropped to 4. In '16, the top 3 unanimously included Puljujarvi who dropped to 4.

I'm not looking earlier than '13 because this site doesn't seem to show the various rankings for earlier years.

So based on historical precedent (only 7-yr history so far from perfect), Byfield or Stuetzle will fall to 4.

I'm not trying to blow anyone's minds here, just found it mildly interesting.

 

[FabricDetails]

I was just looking at old drafts out of curiosity for what happens at 4.

2013 NHL Draft Prospect Rankings
Based on this, every year from 13-19, someone "dropped" to 4. For most years this was because the #3 was not unanimous. For '13, the top 3 unanimously included Seth Jones who dropped to 4. In '16, the top 3 unanimously included Puljujarvi who dropped to 4.

I'm not looking earlier than '13 because this site doesn't seem to show the various rankings for earlier years.

So based on historical precedent (only 7-yr history so far from perfect), Byfield or Stuetzle will fall to 4.

I'm not trying to blow anyone's minds here, just found it mildly interesting.

I'll take it, hehe.

 

[FMichael]

I was just looking at old drafts out of curiosity for what happens at 4.

2013 NHL Draft Prospect Rankings
Based on this, every year from 13-19, someone "dropped" to 4. For most years this was because the #3 was not unanimous. For '13, the top 3 unanimously included Seth Jones who dropped to 4. In '16, the top 3 unanimously included Puljujarvi who dropped to 4.

I'm not looking earlier than '13 because this site doesn't seem to show the various rankings for earlier years.

So based on historical precedent (only 7-yr history so far from perfect), Byfield or Stuetzle will fall to 4.

I'm not trying to blow anyone's minds here, just found it mildly interesting.

Interesting take on this.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I kind of hope the Oilers get 1st overall, just to really highlight how screwy this new system is.

 

[jfrank21]

Unfortunately, typically when that player slips to 4th, they end up under performing. Bennett, Puljujarvi....

 

[RedWingzz]

Don't you get it? That's EXACTLY why the current system is in place. It's blatantly obvious Detroit tanked. It's not even funny, they legit sported what I believe to be the worst record in the salary cap era of any team in the NHL. You're legit saying that tanking should be rewarded. Hint: it should not. Remember, the parity in the league is decreasing with every year: the gap between teams has become very small. In modern NHL, how can a team do so poorly if it wasn't manipulated to do so?

Your GM probably could have done so many things to make the team better, but he didn't. It must've been embarassing for multiple teams to tank in the hopes of getting McDavid back then too. Yet, Detroit managed to do even worst than those teams that were criticized for tanking at the time??

I see you guys have many players in LTIR. You gotta ask yourself whether they're truly still injured or simply asked to retire/not played. or, maybe it was orchestrated by a GM in the first place: why would you even sign players til they're that old..

Either way, bad management and/or tanking should not be rewarded. It ruins the integrity of the sport. I'm not saying Pittsburgh or Toronto deserve Lafreniere this year (as I believe the system was indeed poorly thought for this year). However, while this year's system was full of flaws and consequently deficient, your odds stayed the same, as they should have. I can understand people being disappointed, but it irks me so much to read posts I deem entitled. You are NOT (and should NOT be) entitled to the first pick for finishing last. Being guaranteed 4th is already very good.

You should probably know what you are talking about before going on an imbecilic rant that has no truth to it. I'm assuming you aren't a Wings fan, so get the **** outta here.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Unfortunately, typically when that player slips to 4th, they end up under performing. Bennett, Puljujarvi....

Sure but we can avoid that simply by picking this year's Pettersson instead

 

[wingfan]

I was just looking at old drafts out of curiosity for what happens at 4.

2013 NHL Draft Prospect Rankings
Based on this, every year from 13-19, someone "dropped" to 4. For most years this was because the #3 was not unanimous. For '13, the top 3 unanimously included Seth Jones who dropped to 4. In '16, the top 3 unanimously included Puljujarvi who dropped to 4.

I'm not looking earlier than '13 because this site doesn't seem to show the various rankings for earlier years.

So based on historical precedent (only 7-yr history so far from perfect), Byfield or Stuetzle will fall to 4.

I'm not trying to blow anyone's minds here, just found it mildly interesting.

This is what I've been saying for a few days. Pretty much every draft someone falls out of the top 3 because not every team has the same rankings. They're not drafting based on Bob Mackenzie's rankings, they're drafting based on what their scouts say. Not all team's scouts value specific skill sets and attributes the same, if they did the draft would be pretty boring.. There's a reason we grabbed Seider last year at 6 which shocked the draft floor/media and was seen as a reach. He was BPA at position of need on OUR board. The only problem with the "someone always falls from top 3" logic is that it's usually a defenseman or winger falling because a team reached to fill a position of need(center), i.e. 2018 when Tkachuk fell to Ottawa at four because Montreal placed more value on Kotkaniemi and when Zadina fell to us because Arizona also wanted a center and placed more value on getting their guy(Hayton) at a position of need than they did on a high end winger. We'll see how it all shakes out. It would shock the ever living shit out of me if LA went off the board and did not take Byfield at two. I would be far less shocked if Ottawa targeted someone like Rossi at 3 over Stutzle because they feel more comfortable that he'll be ready to play center in the NHL sooner than Stutzle will. At the end of the day, we're going to have our pick of a damn good group of players at 4. Whether we go Drysdale, Rossi, Perfetti, Raymond or Sanderson, we're getting an elite talent and I'm happy about that.

 

[wingfan]

Unfortunately, typically when that player slips to 4th, they end up under performing. Bennett, Puljujarvi....

Tkachuk slipped in 2018, I don't think he's underperforming by any stretch. Byram slipped last year, there's nothing to indicate his development isn't going as planned. It's all relative.. For every overrated player that slips, there are plenty of examples of very good players slipping as well because teams reach to address a position of need.

 

[Bench]

4.25 million dollar Abdelkader, 5.25 million dollar Nielsen, 4.25 million dollar Ericsson and 4.00 million dollar Howard...

Let us not forget the one with the best story.

Dan the Broken.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Let us not forget the one with the best story.

Dan the Broken.

Did someone say best story?

https://www.amazon.com/Shoot-Goal-Justin-Abdelkader-Story-ebook/dp/B07L8LP58Z

 

[jkutswings]

Did someone say best story?

https://www.amazon.com/Shoot-Goal-Justin-Abdelkader-Story-ebook/dp/B07L8LP58Z

Title: Shoot for the Goal
Subtitle: How to Steal Ken Holland's Money