Downtown development to force Sharks from San Jose?

BKIslandersFan

F*** off
Sep 29, 2017
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I would assume this threat just means moving to a different county in the Bay Area. It would be disastrous for the NHL to lose a team in that region given how populated that CSA is. Obviously, the goal should be to stay in San Jose proper, and not move to the suburbs like the 49ers.
Correct. Sharks are not moving away from the Bay.

Oakland Sharks has a nice ring to it.
 

Ernie

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Aug 3, 2004
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If Google is putting in a high density development shouldn't they consider adding some rapid transit?
 

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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If Google is putting in a high density development shouldn't they consider adding some rapid transit?

National rail service (Amtrak). Regional train service (ACE/Amtrak). Local train service (CalTrain)
Light rail (county), bus service (county).

BART is planned to come to downtown SJ/DIridon station. (Will be underground)

What more do you want? Helicopters? Blimps? (In flight path, so those might be impossible to implement) Tram (on cable)?

I don't know that increasing frequency is wanted, without ridership.
 

IU Hawks fan

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Besides, it's more economically efficient to renovate SAP than it would be to build an entirely new arena from scratch. The model of "move to a new building when the current one gets old" isn't really a thing anymore; now it's "renovate current arenas to meet more modern standards unless untenable, then build a new building."

Bingo. The roof is the most expensive part of an arena, these days you're better off gutting the interior than starting from scratch.
 

Ernie

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Aug 3, 2004
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National rail service (Amtrak). Regional train service (ACE/Amtrak). Local train service (CalTrain)
Light rail (county), bus service (county).

BART is planned to come to downtown SJ/DIridon station. (Will be underground)

What more do you want? Helicopters? Blimps? (In flight path, so those might be impossible to implement) Tram (on cable)?

I don't know that increasing frequency is wanted, without ridership.

whoa now I thought the complaint here was that there was no way for fans to get to the game without a car, if there are so many options, what is the problem?
 

Jetsfan79

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Jul 12, 2011
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I'm confused. Why isn't *temporarily * moving to another arena in California until construction is over (and then moveing back) not an option?

Edit: Nevermind just noticed they are saying the construction would last 10-15 years
 

Dicdonya

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Jul 21, 2011
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whoa now I thought the complaint here was that there was no way for fans to get to the game without a car, if there are so many options, what is the problem?

The problem is that all of the train lines that service the arena go exclusively north/south. Thus for anyone actually living in SJ and not walking distance to a train station, you would have to drive anyways to get to the train station, and for me personally when I lived in SJ (well Campbell actually) there literally was not a train station between me and the arena.

So basically those trains are only viable for someone coming from the SF peninsula or the east bay, or the population that lives near the southern portion of those train lines.

Therefore the only other mass transit option available is buses, which are useless if traffic is the concern getting to the arena, as SJ has no designated bus lanes to bypass traffic, at least when I lived there up until about 4 years ago.

This does not even consider people coming from the greater bay area like Livermore, Pleasanton etc where its a simple 30ish minute drive(without traffic), but hours on public transport.

In short, while there are public transport options at the arena, they all service essentially the same portion of the bay area population north of SJ, and not much of the actual geographic area of SJ(and bordering cities/towns) itself.

edit- I did forget about light rail, which does branch out a bit east and west, thus could be an option for some as well.
 
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StreetHawk

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Sep 30, 2017
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The old Forum lasted from 1924 all the way to 1996. 30 years is miniscule in comparison, lmao

Besides, it's more economically efficient to renovate SAP than it would be to build an entirely new arena from scratch. The model of "move to a new building when the current one gets old" isn't really a thing anymore; now it's "renovate current arenas to meet more modern standards unless untenable, then build a new building."
There's also logistics to consider. And location. Goes for any city. Where can you find enough land for the building, plus then you have to factor in parking and public transit to get 18K of people in and out of the area quickly. Plus, it has to be somewhere that people can get to quickly and the surrounding area has to be somewhere people should want to hang out before or after the event. If the current location has a rapid transit stop nearby, then what are the chances that a new location will get an extension of that rapid transit?
 
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LadyStanley

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whoa now I thought the complaint here was that there was no way for fans to get to the game without a car, if there are so many options, what is the problem?

Excluding CalTrain NORTH along peninsula there is no rail service after games. (And no incoming service on commute routes)
 
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oknazevad

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Dec 12, 2018
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I just feel the need to chime in and note that none of the other full-sized Bay Area arenas actually have ice plants. The Oakland Arena ice plant was removed during the 90s reconstruction when the building became a basketball-first arena; the reconstructed arena is really an new arena inside the shell of the original one, with only the outer walls and roof left from before the reconstruction. Even the floor was new concrete. So the fact that the Seals played at the old building has zero bearing on the inability of the modern Oakland Arena to host the Sharks. Being the San Jose Arena was open (and the Warriors had nearly moved there outright), no one really thought that there'd be a chance to ever need an ice plant, so it was left out as a cost-saving measure.

Ditto with the Chase Center, which was likewise built entirely for the Warriors, whose owners specifically said it will never host hockey. It physically cannot. (And before anyone asks, Disney on Ice has a portable rink for when they play at a building without its own ice plant.)
 

majormajor

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Jun 23, 2018
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I would assume this threat just means moving to a different county in the Bay Area. It would be disastrous for the NHL to lose a team in that region given how populated that CSA is. Obviously, the goal should be to stay in San Jose proper, and not move to the suburbs like the 49ers.

We should assume, rather, that this is an empty threat. Sharks ownership is just trying to leverage a better deal for them. There's no way they can leave their lease and they can't upgrade on their market. A re-development of the surrounding area would actually be a big plus for the team as long as they have parking. I suspect they'd be pleased if they can leverage a parking garage out of this threat.

The 49ers stadium, by the way, is less than a mile from San Jose. The area is a poorly-designed urbanist nightmare but I wouldn't call it suburban.
 

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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We should assume, rather, that this is an empty threat. Sharks ownership is just trying to leverage a better deal for them. There's no way they can leave their lease and they can't upgrade on their market. A re-development of the surrounding area would actually be a big plus for the team as long as they have parking. I suspect they'd be pleased if they can leverage a parking garage out of this threat.

The 49ers stadium, by the way, is less than a mile from San Jose. The area is a poorly-designed urbanist nightmare but I wouldn't call it suburban.

No, it's not. The threat is that events won't come to SJ during the construction due to inability for patrons to get in/out of arena at all/easily.

No events = no income from those events for arena, parking, restaurants, hotels (for visitors) (and the cut the city gets from the arena for parking, tickets, etc.). That impacts not only STH and Sharks fans, but also all the local businesses that depend on event traffic.

For those events that do get held (Sharks games), that adds to the traffic congestion before/after events.

Sharks lease only runs through 2026. Apparently the construction is supposed to last more than ten years. So, the Sharks could up and move in the middle of construction to another venue (plenty of time to develop, build new facility).


The Sharks aren't saying NO to development, but are asking for assurances that traffic can flow in/out for events. (And that the city fulfills its contractual obligations WRT providing sufficient parking for arena events. If you build a something on a parking lot, is it being replaced by multi-level parking structure?)


The stadium is located in the adjacent city, Santa Clara.
 

majormajor

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No, it's not. The threat is that events won't come to SJ during the construction due to inability for patrons to get in/out of arena at all/easily.

No events = no income from those events for arena, parking, restaurants, hotels (for visitors) (and the cut the city gets from the arena for parking, tickets, etc.). That impacts not only STH and Sharks fans, but also all the local businesses that depend on event traffic.

For those events that do get held (Sharks games), that adds to the traffic congestion before/after events.

Sharks lease only runs through 2026. Apparently the construction is supposed to last more than ten years. So, the Sharks could up and move in the middle of construction to another venue (plenty of time to develop, build new facility).


The Sharks aren't saying NO to development, but are asking for assurances that traffic can flow in/out for events. (And that the city fulfills its contractual obligations WRT providing sufficient parking for arena events. If you build a something on a parking lot, is it being replaced by multi-level parking structure?)


The stadium is located in the adjacent city, Santa Clara.

You've established that there is some potential damage to the team. That wasn't at issue. You need to show that there is a good fallback position (i.e. a better place for the Sharks to go to) for there to be a real threat.
 

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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Perhaps Google will modify construction plans to prioritize SAP Center access?

Not clear what action(s) will result from FUD.
 

SirQuacksALot

A Garibaldi in Kelp
Mar 16, 2010
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You've established that there is some potential damage to the team. That wasn't at issue. You need to show that there is a good fallback position (i.e. a better place for the Sharks to go to) for there to be a real threat.

Just tell QC there's a team looking for an arena.
 

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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San Jose Sharks' Jonathan Becher hopeful about SAP Center stay

The Sharks’ largest concern is the proposal to reduce traffic lanes on Santa Clara and Autumn streets, which intersect in front of the arena. Becher said if that is addressed, and the city upholds its parking agreement with the Sharks [4850 spaces within 1/3 mile of arena], that would alleviate many of the team’s concerns.

“If they do those two things, which seems more likely now than before, that goes a long way,” Becher said.

Proposal is "thousands of pages". This helps educate the city council members as to the concerns of the Sharks/SAP Center. (As the city owns the property, and they have contractual obligations WRT parking, this helps focus the efforts to alleviate those concerns. The city gets rent and some income from events at the arena.)

Hopeful that construction plan can be modified to address these concerns.
 

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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Teal Town podcast with Sharks President Becher. Sharks were not involved in development planning discussions and really found out about stuff when EIRs were released (2000 pages). Three of the major street roads are being discussed to reduce from 4 lanes (one way or two each way) to two lanes. Sharks have to consent to usage/replacement of the three parking lots around the arena (per lease). Lease runs through 2025 (not 2026 I thought it was) with options to 2040.

There are like FIVE projects proposed/planned in the area: Google campus, BART extension, California High Speed Rail, CalTrain upgrade (to electrical, improved speed), etc.
 

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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Sharka have filed multiple suits and lost; appealing.

SJ city say they have given concession income to Sharks adding $5-6m to bottom line. Willing to build $50m parking structure adjacent to arena.



While construction is ongoing, major pain for events @ SAP Center.
 
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Mightygoose

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Nov 5, 2012
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Yikes! I thought the city and the team resolved these issues doesn't look like they're even on the same page right now.

Final meeting with the city on this looks like it's scheduled for May 25 so there's still time to work this out.
 

IU Hawks fan

They call me IU
Dec 30, 2008
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San Francisco Sharks? They have a new arena and the market is a bigger tv market.

A) It's the same TV market
B) The building isn't fit for hockey

The New Warriors Ground: A Tour of the Chase Center in San Francisco – NBC Bay Area

"We really wanted that intimate feel," Beaven said. "So this building is not configured to be an NHL building, because that would impact your basketball sight lines."

Bringing seats closer to the court than they could be if the Warriors left room for a professional hockey rink, Beaven said the building will also be great for concerts — once the massive LED scoreboard retracts into the rafters.
 

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