Downtown development to force Sharks from San Jose?

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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Raising the ante in development discussions.

Google wants to develop properties around arena where there is currently parking. City has agreement to provide parking to arena.

Sounds like Sharks are calling on fans to put pressure on discussions.
 

Mightygoose

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Nov 5, 2012
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Is the plot of land where they we're looking to build for the A's at one time still open? Would it be far enough from SAP and the development that could be workable?
 

Zenos

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Oct 4, 2009
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Is on-site parking really that much of a deal-breaker in San Jose?

I ask, because this was a big discussion point back when the Oilers / Katz were jostling with the City regarding a new arena in downtown Edmonton. Many people at the time were concerned at the lack of parking. 5 years later, it really hasn't proven to be a problem: There's more than enough parking spread throughout the immediate area, and better transit connections (multiple light rail stations instead of just one at the old coliseum) mean it's actually a better situation than before for many.

But I don't know SJ. Maybe the situation there is vastly different?
 

gstommylee

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Sounds like SJ could sue the city over the google thing for environmental reasons.
 

LadyStanley

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Yes it's FUD, but trying to come to game and not be able to get non-construction like access? It's crazy enough to deal with commute traffic and post-game traffic with the police directing traffic. Then close additional streets (some one way) for a decade of construction?

(Mass transit cannot fulfill all attendees needs.)
 

Stephen

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Not sure if there's a bigger political angle here. Would have thought that hoarding and temporary access wouldn't be a major issue. For comparison, the Air Canada Centre has seen an entire downtown development grow up around it over the past 15 years, not to mention ongoing massive renovations to Union Station here in Toronto.

But assuming decade plus of construction in and around the SAP Center without multimodal transportation infrastructure and lack of cheap surface parking place could become a real issue in San Jose, what are the alternatives?

Also, by the time all the construction dust has settled after 2030, the arena will be 40 years old. Plus they're going up against Google development. Could the Sharks just move to the Chase Center temporarily and plan their next San Jose arena?
 

StreetHawk

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Not sure if there's a bigger political angle here. Would have thought that hoarding and temporary access wouldn't be a major issue. For comparison, the Air Canada Centre has seen an entire downtown development grow up around it over the past 15 years, not to mention ongoing massive renovations to Union Station here in Toronto.

But assuming decade plus of construction in and around the SAP Center without multimodal transportation infrastructure and lack of cheap surface parking place could become a real issue in San Jose, what are the alternatives?

Also, by the time all the construction dust has settled after 2030, the arena will be 40 years old. Plus they're going up against Google development. Could the Sharks just move to the Chase Center temporarily and plan their next San Jose arena?
Chase isn’t configured for 18k nhl capacity. Once the sharks told the warriors that they didn’t want to join them in SF they Warriors went ahead and built it for basketball and concerts mainly.
 

Web In Front

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Shouldn't they be looking to move into a new arena over the next decade anyway? SAP Center is almost 30 years old.
 

DoyleG

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Reading through the articles and tweets, I get the following is going on.

Google was buying up much of the land around the SAP, which includes much of the parking spaces around the area, for its development.

The city seems to want to support the Google project, even though that means taking away parking spots that the city gave to the Sharks to use.

Indications are would be that the Google buildings would be constructed all at once, leading to the concerns about traffic being restricted.

The Bay Area, with all its environmental talk, is still a car-oriented regions. especially with the increase of people moving to outlying communities. The apple/orange comparison that some have brought on here don't really apply to the situation.
 

FMichael

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Shouldn't they be looking to move into a new arena over the next decade anyway? SAP Center is almost 30 years old.
Just 30 years old?

Owner loves SAP Center.


They're undergoing a multi-million upgrade during COVID shut down to replace/improve ice plant (and floor), new escalators, etc.
Here in Milwaukee - early 1980s - Lloyd Pettit inquired about the purchase, and possible relocation of the Blues. Was instantly shot down due to the fact that there wasn't an arena that held a minimum of 15K (the old Mecca Arena - now the UW-Milwaukee Panther Arena - built in 1950 only holds around8.5K for hockey).

Long story short - Pettit donates the $$$ for the Bradley Center, and it opens in Oct 1988 - early 90s expansion fee is too much so Milwaukee doesn't get a team - Bucks now #1 tenant - several years ago new Bucks owners want a new place to call their own - tax payer $$$ helps pay for the Fiserv Forum - fall of 2018 Bradley Center is closed - wrecking ball 2019...All of 30 years old, and nothing wrong with it :ha:
 
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RosensRug

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SAP center is a very good arena in my opinion. Its not flashy but the atmosphere is great, sight-lines are good and its very easy to get to from the Bay Area via public transit or from the SJ airport. Only gripe I have is I've never been a big fan of the surrounding area from a bars/restaurant POV. Regardless I always make it a point to visit when I'm in town for work.

Kinda surprised Google is looking to build ANOTHER campus in the surrounding area but hey they're trying to catch amazon so whatever.
 

GuelphStormer

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Isn't there still plenty of un(der)developed land in that general area that could accommodate a parking tower or two? Ive taken Caltrain to San Jose Diridon station a couple times from San Francisco and thought it rather sparse in that area (admittedly, been a couple years.) How much land is Google developing? A friend lives in Campbell and he drives the 15-25 minutes for games (sometimes rides his bike, yikes!)
 

CanadianCoyote

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Shouldn't they be looking to move into a new arena over the next decade anyway? SAP Center is almost 30 years old.
The old Forum lasted from 1924 all the way to 1996. 30 years is miniscule in comparison, lmao

Besides, it's more economically efficient to renovate SAP than it would be to build an entirely new arena from scratch. The model of "move to a new building when the current one gets old" isn't really a thing anymore; now it's "renovate current arenas to meet more modern standards unless untenable, then build a new building."
 
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TOGuy14

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What is the public transit situation around SAP center? Is beefing that up a feasible alternative?
 

RosensRug

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What is the public transit situation around SAP center? Is beefing that up a feasible alternative?

Caltrain and ACE stop a few blocks away from the station. I believe ACE only runs during rush hours, as for Caltrain the schedule in normal times is rather tight after games as the last train is at like 10:30 back to San Fran. If a game goes to OT or a shootout you need to hustle back over to the train station afterwards even if they hold the train until 10:45. The train is usually pretty crowded after games.
 
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LadyStanley

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Reading through the articles and tweets, I get the following is going on.

Google was buying up much of the land around the SAP, which includes much of the parking spaces around the area, for its development.

The city seems to want to support the Google project, even though that means taking away parking spots that the city gave to the Sharks to use.

Indications are would be that the Google buildings would be constructed all at once, leading to the concerns about traffic being restricted.

The Bay Area, with all its environmental talk, is still a car-oriented regions. especially with the increase of people moving to outlying communities. The apple/orange comparison that some have brought on here don't really apply to the situation.

Google Maps

Yep. Autumn, Montgomery and Cahill as well as Santa Clara Ave could/would be impacted by proposed construction. Those are the streets that perhaps 75% of the folks use to get to SAP Center.

Isn't there still plenty of un(der)developed land in that general area that could accommodate a parking tower or two? Ive taken Caltrain to San Jose Diridon station a couple times from San Francisco and thought it rather sparse in that area (admittedly, been a couple years.) How much land is Google developing? A friend lives in Campbell and he drives the 15-25 minutes for games (sometimes rides his bike, yikes!)

There is no virgin land. There may be land that has/can be purchased for redevelopment. (SAP Center sits on land that used to be a car wash and Datsun dealer.) There are some old/empty industrial buildings off Stockton (on the other side of the tracks) that might be able to be developed.

IIRC they are buying up most of the Santa Clara Ave to Park Ave (Guadalupe River to railroad) -- immediately south of SAP Center. (Autumn is one way NB, Montgomery one way SB -- these are the main streets south of SAP Center for folks to ingress/egress.)

There are some parking structures east of Guadalupe SR87. I recall taking 30+ minutes to get out of the structure because of how it's laid out (last parked there more than a decade ago because of that). The flow "in" may be OK, but getting out onto the streets (and/or paying parking fees to exit) is problematic.

A number of high rises on the other side of Guadalupe SR87 have parking structures they open up for games/events (and you're looking at up to 1/2 mile of walking unprotected from any weather -- which is usually mild, but there can be nasty storms).

What is the public transit situation around SAP center? Is beefing that up a feasible alternative?

County: Light rail (limited corridors), bus (limited corridors).
Regionally (Bay Area): CalTrain (but only runs north to SF - last train leaves 15 minutes after game; but not synchronized for non-game events). Amtrak/ACE commuter service (can't get "to" arena for evening, no late "home" runs). (Greyhound station is 1/2 mile from arena)
(Amtrak Coast Starlight SB leaves in the morning, three days a week; NB leaves early evening, three days a week)
BART is "planned" to extend from east SJ to Diridon Station, but may have hit some construction delays.

County bus would be impacted as their transit hub is adjacent to Diridon Station (I don't recall if that area is planned for re-development, but closure/reduction of Cahill, Autumn and Montgomery would impact service).

Caltrain and ACE stop a few blocks away from the station. I believe ACE only runs during rush hours, as for Caltrain the schedule in normal times is rather tight after games as the last train is at like 10:30 back to San Fran. If a game goes to OT or a shootout you need to hustle back over to the train station afterwards even if they hold the train until 10:45. The train is usually pretty crowded after games.

There is no public transportation realistically for those who live SOUTH of San Jose (Gilroy, Morgan HIll) after games. There are folks who drive 30+ miles north (of SF, beyond CalTrain), east as well and there are no public transportation alternatives.

Ride Share does not have good organization (when I drove it -- three years ago).
 
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93LEAFS

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I would assume this threat just means moving to a different county in the Bay Area. It would be disastrous for the NHL to lose a team in that region given how populated that CSA is. Obviously, the goal should be to stay in San Jose proper, and not move to the suburbs like the 49ers.

In Toronto, driving to games is pretty much a minor factor given the public transportation (and the nightmare of driving into downtown Toronto, and the stadiums proximity to highly populated and dense commercial buildings for work), I found the same to be true when I was in Van or MTL and in NYC and Boston going to baseball games (and the same applies to MSG and TD Garden). But, in my experience in most other American cities (Cleveland, Buffalo, San Antonio, Dallas/Fort Worth), having places to park is essential due to how much they depend on people driving in from the suburbs or surrounding areas. and/or lack of reliable public transportation. It really depends on how close most of their season ticket holders are, and how many rely on driving to games. In my experience, it seems most American cities have a significant amount of their wealth located in the surrounding suburban areas, with a lack of reliable public transportation to make using it for season ticket holders difficult or not reasonable.

Personally, I prefer arena or stadiums that are in vibrant downtown or atleast have entertainment options near by and good restaurants (why I prefer Cleveland for NFL games even if the downtown isn't vibrant to going to see the Bills at Orchard Park) especially when visiting from out of town. But, I get the demographics of certain areas (aka where people who can afford season tickets are located) and/or the cost of getting land downtown can make the prohibitive.
 
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GuelphStormer

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Google Maps

Yep. Autumn, Montgomery and Cahill as well as Santa Clara Ave could/would be impacted by proposed construction. Those are the streets that perhaps 75% of the folks use to get to SAP Center.



There is no virgin land. There may be land that has/can be purchased for redevelopment. (SAP Center sits on land that used to be a car wash and Datsun dealer.) There are some old/empty industrial buildings off Stockton (on the other side of the tracks) that might be able to be developed.

IIRC they are buying up most of the Santa Clara Ave to Park Ave (Guadalupe River to railroad) -- immediately south of SAP Center. (Autumn is one way NB, Montgomery one way SB -- these are the main streets south of SAP Center for folks to ingress/egress.)

There are some parking structures east of Guadalupe SR87. I recall taking 30+ minutes to get out of the structure because of how it's laid out (last parked there more than a decade ago because of that). The flow "in" may be OK, but getting out onto the streets (and/or paying parking fees to exit) is problematic.

A number of high rises on the other side of Guadalupe SR87 have parking structures they open up for games/events (and you're looking at up to 1/2 mile of walking unprotected from any weather -- which is usually mild, but there can be nasty storms).



County: Light rail (limited corridors), bus (limited corridors).
Regionally (Bay Area): CalTrain (but only runs north to SF - last train leaves 15 minutes after game; but not synchronized for non-game events). Amtrak/ACE commuter service (can't get "to" arena for evening, no late "home" runs). (Greyhound station is 1/2 mile from arena)
(Amtrak Coast Starlight SB leaves in the morning, three days a week; NB leaves early evening, three days a week)
BART is "planned" to extend from east SJ to Diridon Station, but may have hit some construction delays.

County bus would be impacted as their transit hub is adjacent to Diridon Station (I don't recall if that area is planned for re-development, but closure/reduction of Cahill, Autumn and Montgomery would impact service).



There is no public transportation realistically for those who live SOUTH of San Jose (Gilroy, Morgan HIll) after games. There are folks who drive 30+ miles north (of SF, beyond CalTrain), east as well and there are no public transportation alternatives.

Ride Share does not have good organization (when I drove it -- three years ago).
great post, thanks LS. very informative. some interesting and unique challenges. could you guess ... what percentage of patrons come in using which method (like cars, local transit, regional transit)? do patrons for other sorts of events differ on that? it's a busy venue, no? (notwithstanding covid)

what would be your solution when Google eats up the existing parking lots? or is the combination of all of these various activities enough that you would begin to think about another location altogether? will STH stop? thanks.
 

Mightygoose

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Nov 5, 2012
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How much of a cut from the city do the Sharks get for those parking lots? That's a revenue stream that can't be replaced later.

I also wonder how much of the land have the Sharks been eyeing if they want to develop it themselves down the road. Potential loss of $$ down the road
 

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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Sin City
great post, thanks LS. very informative. some interesting and unique challenges. could you guess ... what percentage of patrons come in using which method (like cars, local transit, regional transit)? do patrons for other sorts of events differ on that? it's a busy venue, no? (notwithstanding covid)

what would be your solution when Google eats up the existing parking lots? or is the combination of all of these various activities enough that you would begin to think about another location altogether? will STH stop? thanks.

I think that Google is planning parking (underground, "street level") on those areas they plan to build on. But there would be a loss during construction (up to a decade?) AND street closures/access.

I know the Sharks have done surveys in the past, but I don't recall the exact break down. (Parking in downtown/San Pedro got worse when they stopped the shuttle from the arena down Santa Clara Ave to drop off folks at various areas so they didn't have to walk as far. That was at least ten years ago.)

Capacity: 17562 (easily 18k total folks). My guess is that 15k come by personal car. CalTrain capacity is 650; my guess is that 500-600 take CalTrain. I haven't observed Light Rail nor buses, but would guess hundreds take that mode. Rideshare: hundreds. Walkers (from neighborhood): dozens to hundreds.

Special events... My guess is that 95% of folks come by car and/or ride share. (Those who don't attend events regularly would not know the ins and outs of transit.)
 
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LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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How much of a cut from the city do the Sharks get for those parking lots? That's a revenue stream that can't be replaced later.

I also wonder how much of the land have the Sharks been eyeing if they want to develop it themselves down the road. Potential loss of $$ down the road

(SJ city "owns" the SAP Center. The Sharks parent organization runs the show. I don't know the specifics of "rent" paid to the city for use of the facilities.)

The parking lots adjacent to SAP Center (A, B, C) and the Diridon Station, plus a few others, are manned by SAP Center employees. That revenue, as applicable, goes to HRR (with split to owner of property).

City, private lots further out -- Sharks get no benefit. Owner nets parking fees. (A few enterprising companies adjacent to SAP Center collect parking fees directly; nothing to Sharks.)

The Sharks do have some areas they use between Montgomery and Autumn "behind" the arena. (I think that's were Sharkie nominally parks.) But there's also a homeless shelter, light industrial and houses (on Autumn).
I don't know what property is "owned" by the Sharks parent organization, any leased land, what is owned by city.




tl;dr: The Sharks seem most concerned with ACCESS to SAP Center during construction.
 

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