Doug Wickenheiser

blood gin

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Jan 17, 2017
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I sometimes feel that if the Flames had won that game 6 in St. Louis that they would have gone on to win the 1986 Stanley Cup. As you remind us, all they had to do was hang on to a 5-2 lead in the third period of a playoff game.

But somehow they blew it, and were forced into an energy-draining game 7 back in Calgary, which left them one day off between game 7 and game 1 of the Finals. They rode the momentum to a game 1 Finals win over Montreal, but then fatigue and wear & tear caught up to them, and they lost game 2 in overtime, after which Montreal never looked back.

In my opinion, Wickenheiser's OT goal cost Calgary the '86 Cup. ;)

Yea I forgot it was only 1 day off. Kind of silly if you think about it that the NHL wouldn't at least let the playoffs pause and breathe and build suspense for the finals match up scheduling it so soon after the conclusion after the Wales Conference Finals
 

member 83027

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Says me.... after seeing his play all during his first year in the NHL He was slow and was nothing special from day one right up until he was traded.

Both Savard and Babych come to mind right off. Savard was a no brainer.

Thanks for the explanation.

Says a lot when you can't list the players you would have had ahead of them. I am sure you saw the draft class often to have a more valid ranking (that you can't list) than The Hockey News.
 

The Panther

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Yea I forgot it was only 1 day off. Kind of silly if you think about it that the NHL wouldn't at least let the playoffs pause and breathe and build suspense for the finals match up scheduling it so soon after the conclusion after the Wales Conference Finals
I much preferred the way it was scheduled back then. No rest for teams that needed to go seven games is exactly how it should be. Nowadays, teams in the Finals get a week to prepare and have time for a vacation in Palm Springs during the middle of the series...
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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I sometimes feel that if the Flames had won that game 6 in St. Louis that they would have gone on to win the 1986 Stanley Cup. As you remind us, all they had to do was hang on to a 5-2 lead in the third period of a playoff game.

But somehow they blew it, and were forced into an energy-draining game 7 back in Calgary, which left them one day off between game 7 and game 1 of the Finals. They rode the momentum to a game 1 Finals win over Montreal, but then fatigue and wear & tear caught up to them, and they lost game 2 in overtime, after which Montreal never looked back.

In my opinion, Wickenheiser's OT goal cost Calgary the '86 Cup. ;)

Wow, I had to look that up. Don't tell Wings fans from 2009 that Calgary and Montreal started just two days after the semis in 1986. They've been complaining about the final in 2009 starting three days after for years (although I'll be honest I haven't heard a single complaint about it since Pittsburgh won without Letang last year and the whole "We had injuries" excuse was debunked).

As for 1986, that Game 2 overtime was unfortunate. 9 seconds in Skrudland buries it past Vernon on a mix up that ended as a two-on-one. Watching the footage you can literally see fans just getting to their seats as the faceoff is dropped.
 

decma

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Feb 6, 2013
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Based on contemporaneous articles, it seems there was doubt re who Montreal would take first, and that size was very important in Montreal's decision to go with Wickenheiser.

From a Globe article on April 8, 1980, after a one-goal win in their final regular season game cost the Jets the first overall pick.

The win tied the Jets with the Rockies for last place in the over-all standing but, because the Jets had one more victory than Colorado, they were awarded 20th place and lost the rights to the No. 1 selection in the NHL's entry draft. That was a plum Ferguson had been cherishing since the team was eliminated from the playoffs about a month ago. "I couldn't sleep all night I felt so bad," said Ferguson, who loses the No. 1 choice, probably defenceman David Babych of Portland Winter Hawks, to Montreal Canadiens. ...

Babych is considered the finest player available in the draft. He is a strapping 18-year-old defenceman, whose brother, Wayne, is a right winger with St. Louis Blues. Doug Wickenheiser, a talented centreman with Regina Pats who scored 89 goals this season, now is almost certainly ticketed for the Jets as the second choice over all. "Don't make any prejudgments," warned Ron Caron, Canadiens' director of player personnel and recruiting. "We will not be deciding until the Stanley Cup is over. We're still looking at possible candidates. Babych is excellent, Wickenheiser is a real player, too. Denis Savard (Montreal Juniors) is a very good player. There are a lot of good hockey players in this draft." The Canadiens are being pressed by the Quebec media to select Savard, a crafty centreman, and, if the Stanley Cup defending champions opt for either Babych or Wickenheiser, then Savard or defenceman Fred Arthur of Cornwall Royals will be taken by Chicago Black Hawks, who acquired the third pick over all in a trade with Colorado Rockies.



From a Globe article on June 7, 1980:

The following players - on the basis of Central Scouting's report and interviews with NHL general managers and scouts - are those most likely to be chosen in the draft's first round: David Babych (D) Portland; Doug Wickenheiser (C) Regina; Larry Murphy (D) Peterborough; Denis Savard (C) Montreal; Rick Lanz (D) Oshawa; Fred Arthur (D) Cornwall; Mike Allison (C) Sudbury; Normand Rochefort (D) Quebec; Brad Palmer (LW) Victoria; Craig Muni (D) Kingston; Jim Foxx (RW) Ottawa; Mike Blaisdell (RW) Regina; Mike Bullard (C) Brantford; Paul Coffey (D) Kitchener; Paul Gagne (C-RW) Windsor; Darren Veitch (D) Regina; Denis Cyr (RW) Montreal; Ken Solheim (LW) Medicine Hat; Jerome Dupont (D) Toronto; Barry Pedersen (C) Victoria; Rick Wilson (D) Kingston.

From another Globe article from June 7, 1980.

It's the belief of Central Scouting, a department of the NHL, and various NHL general managers, that David Babych, a 6-foot, 2-inch, 200- pound defenceman with Portland of the Western Junior Hockey League, is the best junior player available. But the Canadiens have a few top young defencemen and a few talented experienced ones in Larry Robinson and Serge Savard, so they will opt for Doug Wickenheiser of Regina Pats or Denis Savard of Montreal juniors, both centres.

Wickenheiser, 6 feet and 199 pounds, scored 171 points for the Pats last season and has the three Ts - talent, tenacity and toughness. Montreal fans would prefer that the club select Denis Savard, a local favorite who accumulated 181 points in 72 games last season. But Savard is a mere 5 feet, 9 inches and 165 pounds and, despite having fine centres in Pierre Larouche, Doug Jarvis, Doug Risebrough and Pierre Mondou, Canadiens don't have a big one like Wickenheiser. That, according to many NHL scouts, is the only advantage Wickenheiser has over Savard so it shouldn't be shocking if they select Savard instead.



And from the Globe on June 12, right after the draft:

The Canadiens passed on Babych, whose older brother, Wayne, plays for St. Louis Blues, because they already have a strong, balanced defensive corps and decided that a centre of Wickenheiser's calibre, to go along with Pierre Larouche, Doug Risebrough and Doug Jarvis, will be a major boost to the team. In 71 games for the Pats last season, Wickenheiser had 89 goals and 81 assists for 170 points. ''It's like having a weight taken off my shoulder,'' Wickenheiser said. ''I was in the dark until (yesterday) morning about who I'd end up with. I didn't really care what number I was picked. I was only interested in the team. ''I tried to stay away from the rumors about this for the past few months, but it was difficult. All I know now is that it's a great feeling getting picked by the Canadiens. They have so many great players.'' By choosing the 6-foot, 199-pound Wickenheiser, the Habs refused to bow to local pressure to draft Denis Savard, a centre with Montreal Juniors of the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League. Savard, chosen third by Chicago Black Hawks, also is an excellent player, but is three inches shorter than Wickenheiser and about 45 pounds lighter. He had 63 goals and 118 assists last season. ''I'm not disappointed about not getting picked by Montreal,'' Savard said. ''I just wanted to be drafted high and I was. I can't complain about going to Chicago. It's a good city with a good team.'' This wasn't a year in which an abundance of top graduating juniors was available. After the 11th pick was made, most clubs drafted prospects for the future. Six 18-year-olds were selected in the first round, the first being defenceman Rick Wilson of the Ontario Major Junior Hockey League's Kingston Canadians, who was drafted by St. Louis.


And from a Globe article during 1980 training camp:

One of the excuses for the decline of the former NHL rulers is that they lacked a big, strong, imposing centre. They needed someone along the lines of a Jean Beliveau or a Phil Esposito to skate with the offensive stars. Size was a primary consideration to ward off unsolicited attacks on Lafleur and Shutt.

It was for this reason that the Habs selected Wickenheiser from Regina Pats instead of a prolific but small scorer named Denis Savard from Montreal Juniors or a defenceman named David Babych of Portland Winter Hawks.
 

Freddy The Fog

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Aug 3, 2005
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Thanks for the explanation.

Says a lot when you can't list the players you would have had ahead of them. I am sure you saw the draft class often to have a more valid ranking (that you can't list) than The Hockey News.

I'm glad I could make you feel vindicated that he was such a fine pick. His NHL play speaks volumes about his skill set and how valid his ranking was. As a no. 1 pick....he was the NHL equivalent of JaMarcus Russell. The scouts had it wrong. Way wrong.

But I'm glad he met Blues hockey standards for no.1 skills.
 

member 83027

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I'm glad I could make you feel vindicated that he was such a fine pick. His NHL play speaks volumes about his skill set and how valid his ranking was. As a no. 1 pick....he was the NHL equivalent of JaMarcus Russell. The scouts had it wrong. Way wrong.

But I'm glad he met Blues hockey standards for no.1 skills.

No need for me to feel vindicated. I stated facts that we was ranked #1 by THN. I could have thrown something out there like you did and not back up my statement.

He was much closer to #1 than the maybe top 15 that you claim and then chose not to back up when asked to do so.

Thanks for playing.



He was not a No. 1 talent (Maybe top 15)
 

Iron Mike Sharpe

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Not to distract from Wickenheiser himself, but I really think Montreal not drafting Savard #1 is one of the great what-ifs in hockey history. Imagine a mid-80s core of Savard, Chelios, Roy, with an experienced Robinson and Bob Gainey as the leaders, and complimentary stars like Smith and Naslund and Carbonneau. Then throw in the additional what-if of not trading Langway.

The Habs traded for Smith because they determined Wick to be a bust - if they had drafted Savard & he grabbed the number one C spot & was as immediately successful in Montreal as he was in Chicago (imagine him skating with Lafleur!), would they still have made a play for Smith? Savard being there would not have negated their need for a big center, but would they have traded for another scoring 1C? They shipped out the pint-sized C Acton as the key in the Smith trade. The Langway trade netted them another big C in Ryan Walter. Larouche, Risebrough & Jarvis were shipped out, too, allowing Smith, Walter & Carbonneau to come in.

Remember, part of the reason the Habs cut some of their stars loose was because they commanded large (for the time) salaries. It's hard to imagine that they could have drafted Savard, traded for Smith & kept Langway as you suggest, while retaining other stars. To keep Langway, they likely would've had to move Robinson to make space for more salary & give Langway the number one D spot.

I think with Savard coming in, the lineup would've looked a lot different, in terms of who they traded & drafted... it's hard to know how some of this stuff might've shaken out, because all of this stuff would've had a chain effect. With Savard & Walter there, there's no room for Smith... with Savard there, Larouche & Acton are potentially redundant & expendable, but if Risebrough & Jarvis stick around, is there room for Carbonneau? & remember Mondou hung on for a few years through this logjam at center, too... how do the drafts pan out with different picks?
 
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Sticks and Pucks

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Based on contemporaneous articles, it seems there was doubt re who Montreal would take first, and that size was very important in Montreal's decision to go with Wickenheiser.

From a Globe article on April 8, 1980, after a one-goal win in their final regular season game cost the Jets the first overall pick.

The win tied the Jets with the Rockies for last place in the over-all standing but, because the Jets had one more victory than Colorado, they were awarded 20th place and lost the rights to the No. 1 selection in the NHL's entry draft. That was a plum Ferguson had been cherishing since the team was eliminated from the playoffs about a month ago. "I couldn't sleep all night I felt so bad," said Ferguson, who loses the No. 1 choice, probably defenceman David Babych of Portland Winter Hawks, to Montreal Canadiens. ...

Babych is considered the finest player available in the draft. He is a strapping 18-year-old defenceman, whose brother, Wayne, is a right winger with St. Louis Blues. Doug Wickenheiser, a talented centreman with Regina Pats who scored 89 goals this season, now is almost certainly ticketed for the Jets as the second choice over all. "Don't make any prejudgments," warned Ron Caron, Canadiens' director of player personnel and recruiting. "We will not be deciding until the Stanley Cup is over. We're still looking at possible candidates. Babych is excellent, Wickenheiser is a real player, too. Denis Savard (Montreal Juniors) is a very good player. There are a lot of good hockey players in this draft." The Canadiens are being pressed by the Quebec media to select Savard, a crafty centreman, and, if the Stanley Cup defending champions opt for either Babych or Wickenheiser, then Savard or defenceman Fred Arthur of Cornwall Royals will be taken by Chicago Black Hawks, who acquired the third pick over all in a trade with Colorado Rockies.



From a Globe article on June 7, 1980:

The following players - on the basis of Central Scouting's report and interviews with NHL general managers and scouts - are those most likely to be chosen in the draft's first round: David Babych (D) Portland; Doug Wickenheiser (C) Regina; Larry Murphy (D) Peterborough; Denis Savard (C) Montreal; Rick Lanz (D) Oshawa; Fred Arthur (D) Cornwall; Mike Allison (C) Sudbury; Normand Rochefort (D) Quebec; Brad Palmer (LW) Victoria; Craig Muni (D) Kingston; Jim Foxx (RW) Ottawa; Mike Blaisdell (RW) Regina; Mike Bullard (C) Brantford; Paul Coffey (D) Kitchener; Paul Gagne (C-RW) Windsor; Darren Veitch (D) Regina; Denis Cyr (RW) Montreal; Ken Solheim (LW) Medicine Hat; Jerome Dupont (D) Toronto; Barry Pedersen (C) Victoria; Rick Wilson (D) Kingston.

From another Globe article from June 7, 1980.

It's the belief of Central Scouting, a department of the NHL, and various NHL general managers, that David Babych, a 6-foot, 2-inch, 200- pound defenceman with Portland of the Western Junior Hockey League, is the best junior player available. But the Canadiens have a few top young defencemen and a few talented experienced ones in Larry Robinson and Serge Savard, so they will opt for Doug Wickenheiser of Regina Pats or Denis Savard of Montreal juniors, both centres.

Wickenheiser, 6 feet and 199 pounds, scored 171 points for the Pats last season and has the three Ts - talent, tenacity and toughness. Montreal fans would prefer that the club select Denis Savard, a local favorite who accumulated 181 points in 72 games last season. But Savard is a mere 5 feet, 9 inches and 165 pounds and, despite having fine centres in Pierre Larouche, Doug Jarvis, Doug Risebrough and Pierre Mondou, Canadiens don't have a big one like Wickenheiser. That, according to many NHL scouts, is the only advantage Wickenheiser has over Savard so it shouldn't be shocking if they select Savard instead.



And from the Globe on June 12, right after the draft:

The Canadiens passed on Babych, whose older brother, Wayne, plays for St. Louis Blues, because they already have a strong, balanced defensive corps and decided that a centre of Wickenheiser's calibre, to go along with Pierre Larouche, Doug Risebrough and Doug Jarvis, will be a major boost to the team. In 71 games for the Pats last season, Wickenheiser had 89 goals and 81 assists for 170 points. ''It's like having a weight taken off my shoulder,'' Wickenheiser said. ''I was in the dark until (yesterday) morning about who I'd end up with. I didn't really care what number I was picked. I was only interested in the team. ''I tried to stay away from the rumors about this for the past few months, but it was difficult. All I know now is that it's a great feeling getting picked by the Canadiens. They have so many great players.'' By choosing the 6-foot, 199-pound Wickenheiser, the Habs refused to bow to local pressure to draft Denis Savard, a centre with Montreal Juniors of the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League. Savard, chosen third by Chicago Black Hawks, also is an excellent player, but is three inches shorter than Wickenheiser and about 45 pounds lighter. He had 63 goals and 118 assists last season. ''I'm not disappointed about not getting picked by Montreal,'' Savard said. ''I just wanted to be drafted high and I was. I can't complain about going to Chicago. It's a good city with a good team.'' This wasn't a year in which an abundance of top graduating juniors was available. After the 11th pick was made, most clubs drafted prospects for the future. Six 18-year-olds were selected in the first round, the first being defenceman Rick Wilson of the Ontario Major Junior Hockey League's Kingston Canadians, who was drafted by St. Louis.


And from a Globe article during 1980 training camp:

One of the excuses for the decline of the former NHL rulers is that they lacked a big, strong, imposing centre. They needed someone along the lines of a Jean Beliveau or a Phil Esposito to skate with the offensive stars. Size was a primary consideration to ward off unsolicited attacks on Lafleur and Shutt.

It was for this reason that the Habs selected Wickenheiser from Regina Pats instead of a prolific but small scorer named Denis Savard from Montreal Juniors or a defenceman named David Babych of Portland Winter Hawks.

Thanks for all this. I had no idea Dave Babych was considered the top prospect of the draft.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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The Habs traded for Smith because they determined Wick to be a bust - if they had drafted Savard & he grabbed the number one C spot & was as immediately successful in Montreal as he was in Chicago (imagine him skating with Lafleur!), would they still have made a play for Smith? Savard being there would not have negated their need for a big center, but would they have traded for another scoring 1C? They shipped out the pint-sized C Acton as the key in the Smith trade. The Langway trade netted them another big C in Ryan Walter. Larouche, Risebrough & Jarvis were shipped out, too, allowing Smith, Walter & Carbonneau to come in.

Remember, part of the reason the Habs cut some of their stars loose was because they commanded large (for the time) salaries. It's hard to imagine that they could have drafted Savard, traded for Smith & kept Langway as you suggest, while retaining other stars. To keep Langway, they likely would've had to move Robinson to make space for more salary & give Langway the number one D spot.

I think with Savard coming in, the lineup would've looked a lot different, in terms of who they traded & drafted... it's hard to know how some of this stuff might've shaken out, because all of this stuff would've had a chain effect. With Savard & Walter there, there's no room for Smith... with Savard there, Larouche & Acton are potentially redundant & expendable, but if Risebrough & Jarvis stick around, is there room for Carbonneau? & remember Mondou hung on for a few years through this logjam at center, too... how do the drafts pan out with different picks?

imo, if bobby smith is on the market for pennies on the dollar, you go after him whether or not you need a number one center. knowing serge savard, i don't think he would have passed up the opportunity if all it cost was acton and napier.

would have been a wonderful 1-2 punch.

also, walter was a winger most of the time, wasn't he?
 

ChuckLefley

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Jan 5, 2016
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A few items:

1) Wickenheiser injured his knee when he was hit by a car after stumbling while climbing into the back of a pickup truck on a team outing. This was during his 5th season in the NHL.

2) The Habs never gave him a chance. In his third season, his first full season, he had 55 points and was their second highest scoring center. He had a slow start in his fourth season and was traded to the Blues.

3) The only reason anyone was upset in Montrèal when he was drafted instead of Savard was because Savard was French-Canadien.
 
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Sticks and Pucks

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It's also interesting to note that Wickenheiser's junior linemate Ron Flockhart ended up having a better career.
 

Tarantula

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It's also interesting to note that Wickenheiser's junior linemate Ron Flockhart ended up having a better career.

Did not believe this so I looked it up and that seems to be the case. I thought the knee injury was earlier in his career and thus more of a factor.
 

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