Doug McLean fails to consider 24% rollback in Rick Nash offer - bad RFA precendent

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Cole Caulifield

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Apr 22, 2004
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The thing I really dislike about the deal is that it's backloaded. It's stupid because it's the average on what's remaining that counts.

If you pay a guy 3M, 2M, 1M. He'll occupy 2M during the 1st year in cap space, 1.5M the 2nd year and 1M the third year. If you do it the other way it's 2M, 2.5M, 3M. It's the same money, but front loaded you have 4.5M over 3 years and backloaded you have 7.5M.
 

Pepper

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E = CH² said:
The thing I really dislike about the deal is that it's backloaded. It's stupid because it's the average on what's remaining that counts.

If you pay a guy 3M, 2M, 1M. He'll occupy 2M during the 1st year in cap space, 1.5M the 2nd year and 1M the third year. If you do it the other way it's 2M, 2.5M, 3M. It's the same money, but front loaded you have 4.5M over 3 years and backloaded you have 7.5M.

Actually it doesn't matter whether it's front loaded or backloaded, it's average of the whole contract that counts, not the remaining part.
 

GSC2k2*

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Pepper said:
Actually it doesn't matter whether it's front loaded or backloaded, it's average of the whole contract that counts, not the remaining part.
Yep, that calc is way off. The cap hit is $2 mil every year.

I will reply to your lengthier post later in the evening, Pepper. Some worthwhile points to discuss.
 

jacketracket*

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Pepper said:
My bad, I should have said 90% of the posters who didn't feel it was a overpayment were CBJ fans.
... and you'd still be wrong, although that doesn't seem to disturb you ...
 

Cole Caulifield

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Apr 22, 2004
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Pepper said:
Actually it doesn't matter whether it's front loaded or backloaded, it's average of the whole contract that counts, not the remaining part.

I didn't read the whole CBA, so if that's true then ok. But I read in article that it was the average of what's remaining on the contract. I'll check it out.
 

kdb209

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Jan 26, 2005
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E = CH² said:
I didn't read the whole CBA, so if that's true then ok. But I read in article that it was the average of what's remaining on the contract. I'll check it out.

The average of remaining years is only to be used for existing (pre-CBA) contracts - their remaining $$$s are averaged over remaining years, and that value is used for the cap hit for the remaining duration of the contract.
 

GSC2k2*

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Pepper said:
1) All of those are pre-CBA contracts

Well, that is silly. Of course they are pre-CBA contracts. They are also after the 24% has been deducted. That makes them as valid as post-CBA contracts. Are you suggesting that the only contracts that are relevant are non-UFA post-CBA contracts? At a point in time prior to arbitration, prior to many RFA's signing?

You asked for actual comparables. I provided them.

What's next? They were not signed on a Tuesday? ;)

2) All of them have EXCELLENT track records with several great seasons. Nash has exactly 1 great season (and not everyone consideres 57 points 'great' despite scoring 41 goals but I digress).

A more cogent point admittedly. As I said, however, each one of those players, and any elite player for that matter, starts with one excellent season. When you compound that with what many felt was an outstanding international showing playing against countries full of excellent players, you cannot say McLean had no evidence on which to base a judgment. Maybe you would have demanded more, but that is a question of degree. I submit that to suggest something is as obvious and as factual as you suggest, a signing has to have no defence whatsoever.

3) Hedjuk's new contract (under the new CBA) calls for average 5.0M per year. This guy has 50+ goal seasons and ~100p season under his belt.

I had read that Hedjuk's contract was $19.5 for 5 years. Clearly, he is the precise example of a player staying somewhere because he has been made to feel comfortable in a city. Exactly what McLean is trying to accomplish.

They are not comparables! All of them have 5+ great seasons in the NHL, they are PROVEN not to be one-year wonders.

In the NHL arb process, they are comparables.


Sorry but I really fail to see how is giving a 5y 5.4M per year deal 'risk mitigation'?? He takes 2 huge gambles (revenues rising nearly 10% per year and Nash developing in to a 50g+ scorer).
They are not really all that big a gamble. As far as revenues are concerned, there are a number of people who think revenues will not be that hard hit. I think it is safe to say that, as far as Columbus is concerned, McLean has sitting on his desk revenue projections for his franchise. Season ticket sales. Sponsorships. League-wide projectiosn (which have not been shared with anyone, I think it is safe to say - it would be stupid for the NHL to suggest that there will be no hit, as they would alienate the fans by seeming to be arrogant). The whole 9 yards.

Even if the revenues rise, how can he tell that Nash will develope in to a REGULAR 40-50G scorer?
As for Nash developing into an elite scorer? Well, I did a little research into the leading NHL goal scorers over the years. It may or may not surprise you to know that the list is essentially full of players who have been nothing less than players with many many successful seaosn when all was said and done in their careers. Bure. Selanne. Bondra. Tkaczuk. Mogilny. Hull. Kurri. Bossy. Lafleur. Shutt. Leach. Esposito. Bobby Hull. And, of course, 99 and Lemieux. Of all the guys who have led the league in goals, the only guys who are not in the above category of players might arguably be Charlie Simmer, Danny Gare and Blaine Stoughton (who all, coincidentally lef the league the same year). Even at that, each of THOSE guys had several excellent years, including multiple 50-goal seasons, 40-goal seasons, etc. Leach might be in more their category as well, but I seem to recall his career being cut short by personal demons.

Go further back? Howe, Geoffrion, Beliveau, Moore, Richard, Ullman, etc. Superstars all.

As you can see, it is a very safe bet that a player who leads the league in goals will be a star for several years. 100%? Nothing in life is 100% safe. But it is pretty close to a safe bet. You can pooh-pooh that achievement all you want, but it is a significant achievement, and an excellent indicator of future success (as you might logically guess). Rick Nash might be Danny Gare, sure. But the odds are very very good that he is not. Even if he is, Danny Gare scored over 50 twice, 40+ once, and 39 another year.

Sorry, in my books that's pretty far from risk mitigation. If he had wanted to mitigate risks, he would have given him a small base salary and lots of bonuses.

Reason #1 would be that bonuses are no longer legal in the NHL for guys like Nash. All that is allowed for him are what the league offers and pays (to awards winners, all-stars, etc).

EVEN IF such an arrangement were permissible, which it is NOT, that MIGHT be a fair point - if he would have taken it. Being only one year form arbitration, I fail to see how accepting such an offer is in Nash's interest in the long run. Why accept a contract of any length with bonuses when one more big year will get him a guaranteed pot of gold from an arbitrator? It does not matter anyway, of course, since those types of contracts are not available.


Well, all the current top stars who have remained in the organisation from the start. Brodeur, Sundin, Iginla, Leetch etc. all of them stuck with their teams despite getting the usual first-pro contract treatment i.e. didn't get the max amount of money.
Sundin has not been with one organization, of course, but let's put that factual inaccuracy aside. Back when they were earning their contracts, there was no such thing as "max money", which it is to be noted, Nash is also NOT receiving - significantly less, in fact. MUCH less, as he is making only $3.5 mil this year, and he does not get anywhere clsoe to what is now max money until 5 years form now, when the max money wil be far far greater. Eahc one of those guys were not lowballed by their teams in the manner you suggest the BJ's should have. Simple broad allusions to one-team players does not provide much persuasive evidence to your position.

Here's a counter-question: can you name any top players who bolted to other team at the first chance because they were low-balled after their ELC expired? I can't remember any such occasion (and I know it's hard to name them since they usually sugar-coat the farewell speeches, but I haven't even heard rumors of such, have you?)

I can suggest a few, but they are more guys who were clearly going to leave and were traded before they got to actual UFA and were signed by their new teams. As we both know, UFA action has been traditionally lowkey, since guys get trade beforehand by the team that could not afford them. Doug Weight comes to mind. As does Tkaczuk.
Another question: do you think it's a realistic scenario where Maclean gives Nash a 3y 7.5M offer (with possible bonuses for performance) and after than contract gives him a 5y 35M contract (assuming that Nash keeps performing)? Why wouldn't that work?

I am afraid i do not. First, as stated above, bonuses are not available to Nash. Secondly, as i stated above, Nash would have to have lost his mind to accept $2.5 per year for 3 years when he is close to arbitration and can win a bundle with one more big year. Then, when he has garnered a few more years of top-of-the-league goal scoring performances, the league max salary will be beckoning and it will be more than what it is now.

As i said before, it is risk management. The risk that he is mitigating is that (1) Nash will be able to command more than $27 mil over the next 5 years throught the arbitration process; (2) Nash will be disaffected with the franchise by refusing to give a long term contract when it was time.; (3) even if he is not disaffected, he will command a higher multi-year contract salary due to the ncrease in revenues (whatever such increase is).

The only real positon one can have is that Nash is going to be a bust. It is possible. But history strongly indicates otherwise.

Well that is all i got for you for now. Have a go.
 

Rotting Corpse*

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A LOT of you guys are missing the point.

The point isn't "is Rick Nash a good player," or even "is Rick Nash worth x amount of dollars," the point is that Nash is not going to be eligible for free agency for several years!

As I recall, Rick Nash will be eligible to become a free agent in four years, so a five year deal knocks off exactly ONE year of his free agency, while paying him ridiculously more money than the team has to. What is the point of locking him up to a long-term deal when he was already going to be Columbus property for that time period anyway?

Wouldn't it make sense to constantly give him 5%-10% raises until he's a year away from free agency and THEN lock him up long term? (Cancelling 4-5 years of his free agency instead of one?) What benefit is it to Columbus to give him a long-term contract RIGHT NOW? As was stated by a previous poster, MacLean was negotiating against himself here. There was no chance that Rick Nash was going to leave...he had no leverage whatsoever.

This deal just doesn't make any sense.
 

codswallop

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I haven't had the itch to read through every post on this thread, even though it seemed intriguing from what I skimmed.

Worth, value, projection, restricted market (along with other similar concepts put forth); sounds like economic talk. Which is why I thought that I'd add my 2 cents.

Though, I think you'll be disappointed by my mini-overview. Simply, because it doesn't give a quick and dirty analysis of the overall situation. That isn't even possible here. The market for a professional sport is pretty unique; basically, it's an amalgum. Several and varied market types are present, even in the best of times it's difficult to distinguish patterns of behavior. With the many new rules and restrictions of this CBA, we're all left guessing.

Yeah, I could give you my take on what has gone on thus far with the signings of UFAs and RFAs; the possible meanings/repercussions and so forth. If prompted for my opinion, I wouldn't hesitate to give it (this is the type of conjecture that I like). BUT, I would always include a disclaimer with it. A disclaimer that has a pretty good chance of having the reader gloss over my post, and go onto another comment with more venom in it. Because that's basically the quid pro quo here.

Nobody wants to hear "this is why we should wait and see". They want some fairly instant gratification. From what I know and what I've seen, that just won't happen in this instance (no matter how much people want it to). This "new" market has barely even started, how in the hell could we possibly know the reasons why it will or will not work in the future? Speculate what might happen; fine. But don't try to play it off as any more than that.

Even established markets where the behavior is fairly predictable can change without much warning (even moreso with an extraneous outside influence). The NHL is far from an established marketplace given the new CBA, not that it was particularly normal in years past. Long story long, we don't know what the hell is going to take place in any particulars. It's not exciting, probably not a message board type of response. But I just thought it needed to be said.
 

Pepper

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gscarpenter2002 said:
Well, that is silly. Of course they are pre-CBA contracts. They are also after the 24% has been deducted. That makes them as valid as post-CBA contracts.

Pre-CBA contract with 24% rollback is NOT the same as post-CBA contracts!

gscarpenter2002 said:
Are you suggesting that the only contracts that are relevant are non-UFA post-CBA contracts? At a point in time prior to arbitration, prior to many RFA's signing?

In arbitration UFA contracts are not used as comparables anyway.

gscarpenter2002 said:
You asked for actual comparables. I provided them.

No you didn't and you still keep missing the point. Guys you listed have SEVERAL great seasons behind them, not one. They are *NOT* comparables in arbitration, that's for sure!

gscarpenter2002 said:
I had read that Hedjuk's contract was $19.5 for 5 years. Clearly, he is the precise example of a player staying somewhere because he has been made to feel comfortable in a city. Exactly what McLean is trying to accomplish.

You can't be serious! Hedjuk is a perfect example of complete opposite situation! Hedjuk has never been given long, rich contracts until now, yet he has always been treated fairly (which is not the same as giving huge contracts after 2 pro years!) and when the time came, he signed for less than market value because he liked the organisation & city. Sorry but again your example is way off.


gscarpenter2002 said:
In the NHL arb process, they are comparables.

100% wrong. They are much older, they have many more great seasons and most importantly they are proven. The closest comparables to Nash is Gaborik, Heatley and Kovalchuk and even they are much more proven at this point.

gscarpenter2002 said:
They are not really all that big a gamble. As far as revenues are concerned, there are a number of people who think revenues will not be that hard hit.

And there are number of people who think that the 1.7B revenue projection is optimistic at best.

gscarpenter2002 said:
I think it is safe to say that, as far as Columbus is concerned, McLean has sitting on his desk revenue projections for his franchise. Season ticket sales. Sponsorships. League-wide projectiosn (which have not been shared with anyone, I think it is safe to say - it would be stupid for the NHL to suggest that there will be no hit, as they would alienate the fans by seeming to be arrogant). The whole 9 yards.

Even if the revenues will grow at nearly 10% per year (VERY optimistic projection btw), who's to say that CBJ will use all the cap space available?? Who cares if the salary cap will be at 45M if CBJ can only spend 35M? Last year they had what 25M budget and were only slightly profitable IIRC.

gscarpenter2002 said:
As for Nash developing into an elite scorer? Well, I did a little research into the leading NHL goal scorers over the years. .

And there are plenty of guys like Joe Juneau who's rookie season was what 35g and didn't manage to crack 20 since then.

gscarpenter2002 said:
Reason #1 would be that bonuses are no longer legal in the NHL for guys like Nash. All that is allowed for him are what the league offers and pays (to awards winners, all-stars, etc). .

That is true, I forgot they were limited to ELCs only, my bad.

gscarpenter2002 said:
EVEN IF such an arrangement were permissible, which it is NOT, that MIGHT be a fair point - if he would have taken it. Being only one year form arbitration, I fail to see how accepting such an offer is in Nash's interest in the long run. Why accept a contract of any length with bonuses when one more big year will get him a guaranteed pot of gold from an arbitrator? It does not matter anyway, of course, since those types of contracts are not available..

Arbitrator wouldn't give Nash more than the last years of Nash's new contract (6M & 7M), that's almost certain given the new arbitration rules. Maclean could have given the same kind of treatment as Risenbrough gave to Gaborik, there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that players bolt to another city because of low early offers.

gscarpenter2002 said:
Eahc one of those guys were not lowballed by their teams in the manner you suggest the BJ's should have. Simple broad allusions to one-team players does not provide much persuasive evidence to your position.

They were given the usual treatment, the exact treatment that guys like Gaborik, Heatley and Kovalchuk are given. Why should Nash be treated any differently??

gscarpenter2002 said:
I can suggest a few, but they are more guys who were clearly going to leave and were traded before they got to actual UFA and were signed by their new teams. As we both know, UFA action has been traditionally lowkey, since guys get trade beforehand by the team that could not afford them. Doug Weight comes to mind. As does Tkaczuk..

Dough Weight was traded because Oilers were going to lose him anyway, not because he was treated badly during his early years at Edmonton, that's not a valid example.

Tkachuk? He was traded for financial reasons also, not because he was lowballed by Jets/Yotes.

More examples??

gscarpenter2002 said:
I am afraid i do not. First, as stated above, bonuses are not available to Nash. Secondly, as i stated above, Nash would have to have lost his mind to accept $2.5 per year for 3 years when he is close to arbitration and can win a bundle with one more big year. Then, when he has garnered a few more years of top-of-the-league goal scoring performances, the league max salary will be beckoning and it will be more than what it is now.

First of all, at this point Nash has either the option to take the deal or sit out the whole season. He didn't have any choice to accept the deal, just like Gaborik did!

Maclean achieved his goal but he did by terrible asset management (=asset being money here). He could have gone 'the usual' route like GMs have done with all other young players but he didn't. Not only he didn't mitigate the risk of Nash becoming a bust at all, he also didn't mitigate the risk of Nash staying at his 60p level at all.
 

Hoek

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Pepper said:
Heh, no it's not me. It's a e-mail joke making rounds over here, it's the result of a 5 straight guys giving a make-up to a queer (as in Queer Eye For The Straight Guy but vice versa).

Unless I'm misinterpreting the picture and it's just really badly misplaced makeup, that's really quite offensive.
 

futurcorerock

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Nov 15, 2003
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King Ryan said:
What is the point of locking him up to a long-term deal when he was already going to be Columbus property for that time period anyway?

Because Rick Nash asked for a long-term deal. Doug had to keep him happy. What happens when he finishes his shorter deals and feels like Columbus didn't please him? Goodbye Rick Nash, Free Agency calls.

It's hard to tell the the most important person on your franchise "no". Just ask Boston
 

Pepper

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Hoek said:
Unless I'm misinterpreting the picture and it's just really badly misplaced makeup, that's really quite offensive.

It's just a badly misplaced makeup. Happy?
 

GSC2k2*

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King Ryan said:
A LOT of you guys are missing the point.

The point isn't "is Rick Nash a good player," or even "is Rick Nash worth x amount of dollars," the point is that Nash is not going to be eligible for free agency for several years!

As I recall, Rick Nash will be eligible to become a free agent in four years, so a five year deal knocks off exactly ONE year of his free agency, while paying him ridiculously more money than the team has to. What is the point of locking him up to a long-term deal when he was already going to be Columbus property for that time period anyway?

Wouldn't it make sense to constantly give him 5%-10% raises until he's a year away from free agency and THEN lock him up long term? (Cancelling 4-5 years of his free agency instead of one?) What benefit is it to Columbus to give him a long-term contract RIGHT NOW? As was stated by a previous poster, MacLean was negotiating against himself here. There was no chance that Rick Nash was going to leave...he had no leverage whatsoever.

This deal just doesn't make any sense.
It is you that has missed the point, as has Pepper. In addiiton to the one year of UFA, McLean bought out 3 years of arbitration.
 

Pepper

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gscarpenter2002 said:
It is you that has missed the point, as has Pepper. In addiiton to the one year of UFA, McLean bought out 3 years of arbitration.

True in theory but perfectly avoidable in practice.

Give him 2y deal at 2.5M per year, during the second year of the contract start negotiating a new deal (hey, give him the 5-7M he wants if he keeps developing like you & Maclean assume) well before the season is over and thus avoid arbitration.

Happens all the time.

My point: Maclean could have reached the same situation with a lot less money and more importantly RISK.
 

jacketracket*

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King Ryan said:
A LOT of you guys are missing the point.

The point isn't "is Rick Nash a good player," or even "is Rick Nash worth x amount of dollars," the point is that Nash is not going to be eligible for free agency for several years!

As I recall, Rick Nash will be eligible to become a free agent in four years, so a five year deal knocks off exactly ONE year of his free agency, while paying him ridiculously more money than the team has to. What is the point of locking him up to a long-term deal when he was already going to be Columbus property for that time period anyway?

Wouldn't it make sense to constantly give him 5%-10% raises until he's a year away from free agency and THEN lock him up long term? (Cancelling 4-5 years of his free agency instead of one?) What benefit is it to Columbus to give him a long-term contract RIGHT NOW? As was stated by a previous poster, MacLean was negotiating against himself here. There was no chance that Rick Nash was going to leave...he had no leverage whatsoever.

This deal just doesn't make any sense.
Follow along here ...

Rick Nash will now be elligible for UFA status at the age of 25 (as oppsed to 31 --- I believe --- under the old CBA).

The point of offering Nash a hassle-free contract, at a figure that isn't unreasonable for either Nash or the club, is to engender good faith; when Nash becomes a UFA at 25, hopefully he recalls that MacLean didn't give him the old in and out, back when he had Nash over a barrel.
 

Rotting Corpse*

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jacketracket said:
Follow along here ...

Rick Nash will now be elligible for UFA status at the age of 25 (as oppsed to 31 --- I believe --- under the old CBA).

What did I say? Read my post. What did I say? I said, four years. Let's see. He's 21. Free agency at 25. So that's....hmmm....take out your calculator now...25-21=four years! Wow! Looks like I was right!

The point of offering Nash a hassle-free contract, at a figure that isn't unreasonable for either Nash or the club, is to engender good faith; when Nash becomes a UFA at 25, hopefully he recalls that MacLean didn't give him the old in and out, back when he had Nash over a barrel.

This seems weak, to be honest.
 

jacketracket*

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King Ryan said:
What did I say? Read my post. What did I say? I said, four years. Let's see. He's 21. Free agency at 25. So that's....hmmm....take out your calculator now...25-21=four years! Wow! Looks like I was right!
I'll go a bit slower for you, this time.

MacLean's intentions were not merely to lock up Nash in a contract until he had reached the age of UFA --- it was to engender good will, for the negotiations that will take place once Nash has the right to sign with any team he likes.
 

Rotting Corpse*

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jacketracket said:
I'll go a bit slower for you, this time.

MacLean's intentions were not merely to lock up Nash in a contract until he had reached the age of UFA --- it was to engender good will, for the negotiations that will take place once Nash has the right to sign with any team he likes.

Right, and like I said last time, this sounds very weak to me.
 

Pepper

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jacketracket said:
Probably a good thing you're not an NHL GM then, huh?

Any GM whose modus opererandi is giving huge fat deals to 21y old kids in hoping that they will remember it in 5 years when they are UFAs won't be GMs for too long. When Nash is a UFA and Rangers come knocking with 7y max salary deal, do you seriously think he's going to skip it just because Maclean was stupid enough to overpay him royally 5 years earlier?

He could have given him the normal treatment like to other young stars (Gaborik, Heatley, Kovalchuk etc) and saved his owner a lot of cash but I guess Maclean got sentimental there.
 

GSC2k2*

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Pepper said:
Pre-CBA contract with 24% rollback is NOT the same as post-CBA contracts!

If you cannot understand that, nothing I can say here will help you.

In arbitration UFA contracts are not used as comparables anyway.
You missed the point. Again. You keep narrowing the field of comparables so that the only relevant contract is what the guy bagging my groceries is earning. In terms of eligible comparables, UFA contracts are not eligible, but others are. I have selected for you contracts that are eligible for use as comparables. Whether YOU think the players are comparable is the next step in the equation. Don't jump ahead. We are establishing a field of comparables. Feel free to provided some of your own. Going by what you said, the only players are comparables are the ones who have not yet resigned. Given the objective of locking a guy up for a few years (whether it is 5 or less is a different question, for now), the Heatleys and Kovalchuks and Lecavaliers of the NHL have not resigned.

No you didn't and you still keep missing the point. Guys you listed have SEVERAL great seasons behind them, not one. They are *NOT* comparables in arbitration, that's for sure!
They are ELIGIBLE for use as comparables. Let's go step by step here. You took issue with my earlier use of UFA's. Fine. Can we agree that the contracts I have referenced ARE eligible? If they are eligible, then let's go to the next step.


You can't be serious! Hedjuk is a perfect example of complete opposite situation! Hedjuk has never been given long, rich contracts until now, yet he has always been treated fairly (which is not the same as giving huge contracts after 2 pro years!) and when the time came, he signed for less than market value because he liked the organisation & city. Sorry but again your example is way off.

Yes, I am serious. I question your sincerity. You admit yourself that he signed for less because he liked the city and organization. Accoridngly, you concede that those aspects are relevant to a player's decision (although you have argued otherwise previously). Playing for a franchise with Colorado's success, has also played a part, for sure. Hedjuk has been paid substantial money thus far. More than he might (or might not) have otherwise earned.


100% wrong. They are much older, they have many more great seasons and most importantly they are proven. The closest comparables to Nash is Gaborik, Heatley and Kovalchuk and even they are much more proven at this point.

You may not think they are comparables. You also might be coming to the conclusion that your opinion is not the final word on NHL player evaluations. Or maybe not. Those guys have not yet had their multi-year discussions with their respective teams. They may or may not have those discussions. If they do not, they are subject to the risk of arbitration, where the player's salary is determined by a guy who is not even in the hockey business and often does not even know what PPG stands for. Risk mitigation is taking away a risk. The BJ's have mitigated the risk of having Nash's value set in a crapshoot.

In all likelihood, those players will all be locked up at some point by their teams. The question becomes, do you want to set the market yourself based on your own evaluation of what the player is worth to you, or do you want his market set by what Heatley/Kovalchuk/Gaborik is worth to their clubs. There is no right or wrong answer per se. It is based on personal preference and how astute McLean thinks those GM's will be in negotiating with those players.

Age and number of successful years has squat to do with anything in arbitration. Even the rawest articling student could put together a convincing argument that Nash is better than the guys i mentioned. Not convincing to you, maybe, but you have to admit your mind is made up. An arbitrator will not be so. To assess this business decision, you have to not assess it using your own evaluation, but rather your evaluation of what someone else's evaluation will be. I am not sure wehy you cannot appreciate that.


And there are number of people who think that the 1.7B revenue projection is optimistic at best.
Right, a draw. The one caveat I would add is that the majority of people on your side are some media types who cannot even balance their checkbook, and one media guy that I read a quote from whose office is a hole in the wall in Mississauga. On my side, however, are the tons of people in the business who cannot really say how better it will be out of fear of alienating the fans by appearing cocky ("we had the lockout, but so what - the fans are coming back"). That being said, only time will tell either way, so this is a stalemate.


Even if the revenues will grow at nearly 10% per year (VERY optimistic projection btw), who's to say that CBJ will use all the cap space available?? Who cares if the salary cap will be at 45M if CBJ can only spend 35M? Last year they had what 25M budget and were only slightly profitable IIRC.

It might interest you to know that the cap mechanism in the CBA is such that revenue projections are assumed to go up 5% automatically. The parties have accordingly taken 5% as a given. It is still subject to the escrow, but that number did not come from the air. It represents the base minimum case in the view of the parties who know better than both of us.

You also missed the point anyway. The point is not whether the BJ's will use their cap space. The point is in calculating what the max player salary will be. That is the relevant number for guys like Nash and the number from which they will peg their salary. They do not get the max necessarily, but that is the number they work from. In this contract, Nash's contract will never be anywhere near the max in any given year.

And there are plenty of guys like Joe Juneau who's rookie season was what 35g and didn't manage to crack 20 since then.

You either missed the point by a mile, or intentionally are not acknowledging the point. Rick Nash did not score 41 goals. HE LED THE LEAGUE IN GOALS. Joe Juneau scored 32 in 92/93, when there were 14 50-goal scorers. My point is that guys who lead the entire league in goal scoring almost without exception turn out to be elite-level players with a large number of elite-caliber goal-scoring decisions. Even the 3 who are questionable as being in that category have had many VERY productive seasons. There are guys for sure who have had a good season and dropped off. Rick Nash did not have such a season. He led the league in goals. He was the best sniper in the league. It almost never happens that this type of achievement is a fluke.


That is true, I forgot they were limited to ELCs only, my bad.
Noted.

Arbitrator wouldn't give Nash more than the last years of Nash's new contract (6M & 7M), that's almost certain given the new arbitration rules.

Exactly what new arbitration rules are you talking about? Other than the waiting period, there are no new rules.

You are also missing the point that, as the allowable max salary increases, the salaries of the elite level guys are going to increase. Once the max salary is about $9.5 million, $6 or $7 million is not all that impressive for an elite player.

Maclean could have given the same kind of treatment as Risenbrough gave to Gaborik, there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that players bolt to another city because of low early offers.

THere is no evidence because, as I said, player who are going to bolt have been traded to bigger markets and signed before their time comes. As well, you also miss the point that, in the new marketplace, an elite player will get the same from a every market, so his choice is solely based on peripheral factors such as how he likes the organization (which includes chances of winning) and city.



They were given the usual treatment, the exact treatment that guys like Gaborik, Heatley and Kovalchuk are given. Why should Nash be treated any differently??

First off, we do not yet know what treatment Kovalchuk and eatley will be given. Their time is coming. See my earlier point about the decision point of deciding whether you would rather set the market or have it set for you.

Dough Weight was traded because Oilers were going to lose him anyway, not because he was treated badly during his early years at Edmonton, that's not a valid example.

The Oil were "going to lose him anyway" because they did not do anything special to create that tie that binds. It is not about being treated badly necessarily. It is also about that special treatment expected by elite players.

Tkachuk? He was traded for financial reasons also, not because he was lowballed by Jets/Yotes.

Ditto above.

More examples??

Examples from me? It is interesting that you make it sound like I am defending an assertion, when it was you who made the original assertion and I asked you for examples for your position (which you have never supported with a single example, BTW). You stated your original position most definitively. I asked you for an example. You provided none and then turned it around on me!

Incidentally, while he is far from a star like the guys we are discussing, Domi left $2.5 mil on the table to sign with Toronto.


First of all, at this point Nash has either the option to take the deal or sit out the whole season. He didn't have any choice to accept the deal, just like Gaborik did!

The sit-out-the-season rule puts pressure on both sides. Nash cannopt afford to sit out, but the BJ's cannot afford him to sit out as well. Plus, before then he would secure a RFA offer most likely. He is not Gaborik. He led the freaking league in goals scored. Either way, in such a scenario, he would have accepted his QO and taken the team to the cleaners in arb or via the threat of arb every year, and would be gone by age 25 no matter what.
Maclean achieved his goal but he did by terrible asset management (=asset being money here). He could have gone 'the usual' route like GMs have done with all other young players but he didn't. Not only he didn't mitigate the risk of Nash becoming a bust at all, he also didn't mitigate the risk of Nash staying at his 60p level at all.

In the new marketplace, there is no "usual route". Nash is the first young top-level RFA guy of his age to sign. As much as you may want to believe it, you cannot simply offer a guy like the league's leading goal scorer $7.5 for 3 and expect him to be grateful or impressed by the flashing of a few bucks. In fact, you can be pretty well assured that he will be quite unimpressed. For guys like that, they expect that they will make big bucks either now or when it is their time via arb of RFA and eventually UFA. Your assessment as GM is not the only relevant factor. It also depends what he thinks, when it comes to the signing of a longer term contract.

Sure, in the interveing 5 years, perhaps Nash might get slightly less than $27 million if he is forced to sign a one year deal this year at his QO and arbitrates 3 years and then goes on the market. He also might get more; you cannot deny that is a real possibility. That is a risk. It is also a risk that, after doing so, he is more likely to go to another team after being forced to do so. In either scenario, Columbus is left at the end of the day without a franchise player around which they can market their team.

As far as risk, I have already demonstrated that historically there is a miniscule risk. You keep thinking of guys like Juneau. I repeat: he led the league in goals. That puts you in elite company historically. Look at the names. A Gretzky/Lemieux? Of course not. A Mogilny/Hull/Shutt/Bondra? Extremely likely. A Blaine Stoughton? Perhaps, but unlikely. A Reggie Leach? Depends on his personal habits, but also unlikely.
 
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GSC2k2*

Guest
Pepper said:
True in theory but perfectly avoidable in practice.

Give him 2y deal at 2.5M per year, during the second year of the contract start negotiating a new deal (hey, give him the 5-7M he wants if he keeps developing like you & Maclean assume) well before the season is over and thus avoid arbitration.

Happens all the time.

My point: Maclean could have reached the same situation with a lot less money and more importantly RISK.
Again with the 3 year deal for peanuts! Do you think maybe any sentient being might have tried that on at some point? Why would McLEan want to offer something to buy out FEWER arb-eligible years?

Incidentally, it is not true that it "happens all the time". It didn't happen with Bertuzzi. It didn't happen with Thornton. It is not happening with Lecavalier. It is the case that teams try to lock up their young stars. Your only point is Gaborik. Sorry, but he hasn't led the league in jacksquat, as far as I know.

Look, i am not a huge Nash fan. I am jsut saying you are speaking with SUCH confidence on this signing when you have no real idea of the magnitude of what Nash has accomplished objectively at this age. A teenager has never led the NHL in goals. Goal scoring leaders do not tank (with 3 exceptions over 50 or so years, and even then those exceptions are VERY fine players for several years). Goal scoring league leaders do not sign 3-yr deals for $7.5 mil. They don't.
 

Pepper

Registered User
Aug 30, 2004
14,693
269
First of all, I have to ask you to learn to quote properly, replying to your posts is quite a chore when you have to copy paste & edit all the texts from your post instead of simply clicking quote. I'm sure you can do it.

gscarpenter2002 said:
If you cannot understand that, nothing I can say here will help you.

I thought you agreed to cut that childish crap from your posts??

pre-CBA contracts with 24% rollback is not the same as post-CBA new contracts, that should be obvious to everyone, the level is different.

gscarpenter2002 said:
You missed the point. Again. You keep narrowing the field of comparables so that the only relevant contract is what the guy bagging my groceries is earning. In terms of eligible comparables, UFA contracts are not eligible, but others are.

Sorry but you're obviously way off here. First you listed bunch of UFAs and then bunch of 30+ players with several great seasons behind them as comparables to Nash. If you can't see the difference between the players you listed and Nash, we can stop the discussion here. I've already given you 3 examples of comparables (Gaborik, Heatley, Kovalchuk) which are much closer than the players you have listed.

gscarpenter2002 said:
Feel free to provided some of your own.

Please pay attention, I already listed comparables few posts ago.

gscarpenter2002 said:
Yes, I am serious. I question your sincerity. You admit yourself that he signed for less because he liked the city and organization. Accoridngly, you concede that those aspects are relevant to a player's decision (although you have argued otherwise previously).

Hedjuk wanted to stay in a well-managed franchise, he obviously wants to be part of a contender in the future as well. So of course those things were relevant to his decision.

gscarpenter2002 said:
Playing for a franchise with Colorado's success, has also played a part, for sure. Hedjuk has been paid substantial money thus far. More than he might (or might not) have otherwise earned.

Hedjuk has always been underpaid, yet he wanted to be part of a contender. Taking less money means better team as it leaves more money for better players.

Hejduk didn't stay in Avs because he has been given huge deals before, he stayed there for different reasons.

So Hedjuk's situation is completely different to Nash's.

gscarpenter2002 said:
Risk mitigation is taking away a risk. The BJ's have mitigated the risk of having Nash's value set in a crapshoot.

Wow, you sure have very different definition for risk mitigation, giving Nash a huge fat deal to prevent a POSSIBLE arbitration with POSSIBLE higher compensation makes very little sense, especially when you can avoid arbitration altogether!

That's like amputating your leg from knee to prevent a possible blood poisoning from small wound in big toe spreading to your heart. Sure you saved yourself from possibly fatal infection but maybe you should have cleaned the wound first. You see my point? Risk mitigation with a very high price.

gscarpenter2002 said:
Age and number of successful years has squat to do with anything in arbitration.

Sorry but your credibility flew right out of the window there. NHLPA itself uses age, past production etc. when searching comparables when negotiating new contracts.

Read this article, it might open your eyes.

http://www.prosportsgroup.com/SportsAgentNews/Nov2004/News/nhl.htm

gscarpenter2002 said:
Right, a draw. The one caveat I would add is that the majority of people on your side are some media types who cannot even balance their checkbook,

Ok, please start listing people (not media types mind you) who have said that revenues will rise like you claimed.

gscarpenter2002 said:
It might interest you to know that the cap mechanism in the CBA is such that revenue projections are assumed to go up 5% automatically. The parties have accordingly taken 5% as a given. It is still subject to the escrow, but that number did not come from the air. It represents the base minimum case in the view of the parties who know better than both of us.

That 5% was demanded by NHLPA as an automatic inflationary mechanism to rise salaries.

Also you missed the point as well. I'm not talking about salary cap, I'm talking about CBJ's player budget which will most likely stay well below the salary cap. 7M per year takes a huge chunk of the budget, and players like Zherdev are going to demand compensation which is in line with Nash's deal. That makes it very hard for BJ's to build a contender if they have to allocate huge amounts of player budget to couple of players.

gscarpenter2002 said:
You either missed the point by a mile, or intentionally are not acknowledging the point. Rick Nash did not score 41 goals. HE LED THE LEAGUE IN GOALS.

I'm fully aware of that, my point is that despite leading the league in goals he can still cool off considerably or remain at the 60pts level. Many players have plateaued after 2nd pro-season.

gscarpenter2002 said:
Exactly what new arbitration rules are you talking about? Other than the waiting period, there are no new rules.

I meant that in the new NHL marketplace the arbitration won't give him more than that.

gscarpenter2002 said:
You are also missing the point that, as the allowable max salary increases, the salaries of the elite level guys are going to increase. Once the max salary is about $9.5 million, $6 or $7 million is not all that impressive for an elite player.

First of all, with very high probability the max salary won't be 9.5M in 2 years (i.e. my proposition of giving Nash 2y deal now) and secondly, there's also a very high probability that nobody is earning that max money. Jarome Iginla, the best player in the league is almost 1M under the current max salary.

gscarpenter2002 said:
THere is no evidence because, as I said, player who are going to bolt have been traded to bigger markets and signed before their time comes.

And we're supposed to buy your theory that players bolt because of early hardballing by GMs which happened 5-7 years earlier, you don't even have any rumors of that happening to support your theory for crying out loud!

Sorry, you provided 2 very poor examples which neither were relevant to support your case.

gscarpenter2002 said:
First off, we do not yet know what treatment Kovalchuk and eatley will be given. Their time is coming. See my earlier point about the decision point of deciding whether you would rather set the market or have it set for you..

First of all, both Heatley and Kovalchuk are RFAs which means they have much more leverage against Waddell but so far all the indications are that Waddell is not rolling over for them. Gaborik is the best example as he was in the exact same situation as Nash.

gscarpenter2002 said:
The Oil were "going to lose him anyway" because they did not do anything special to create that tie that binds. It is not about being treated badly necessarily. It is also about that special treatment expected by elite players...

Wrong. Oilers could have paid something like 5.5M per year to Weight and he got what 7.8M from the Blues. That 2.3M is the reason why Weight bolted, not because Oilers lowballed him earlier in his career.

gscarpenter2002 said:
Ditto above....

And basicly the same answer to this one.

gscarpenter2002 said:
Examples from me? It is interesting that you make it sound like I am defending an assertion, ...

Sorry, you're the one who made the claim that players bolt from organisations who have lowballed them several years earlier when negotiating their 1st pro-contract after ELC.

I don't think it's unfair that I ask you to name examples of such cases and it seems you can't come up with any.

gscarpenter2002 said:
Incidentally, while he is far from a star like the guys we are discussing, Domi left $2.5 mil on the table to sign with Toronto

How does this support your claim that players bolt from organisations who lowball them during early years of their career??
 
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