Doug McLean fails to consider 24% rollback in Rick Nash offer - bad RFA precendent

[hfsb]

The kid scored 41 goals in a defensive minded NHL and he was awesome with the Canadian team. He's a future captain, a future 50 goals scorer and franchise player. I have absolutely no problem ith his contract at all.

I'd rather pay that kid 5 millions than pay Theodore 5 millions on my team.

Wait until you find out that this deal just cost the Habs an extra $1-2 million in salary for Ribs ansd Ryder, then maybe you'll have a problem. That could be the difference between getting that last piece of the puzzle to a contender or not.

I'm not saying that Ribs and Ryder will get anything close to Nash, but they both outpointed him and instead of $1.2-1.5 million, they are asking for $2-2.5 million.

This contract will pull up salaries for young productive RFAs to some degree.

 

[RLC]

I can imagin a day when a player scores 50 goals, then of course wants a raise but his GM says no money is available and no money is available at any other team. Will that player try for 50 again ?

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

In two years Ovechkin will ask for 6 mill. I can not wait to hear you whining that he doesn't deserve all this money. And what this crap about the third world hockey country? What an idiotic thing to say. Playing Phil Esposito tune? But he was a moron. Just not so long ago Zherdev, Ovechkin, Malkin and company were making a shishkebab out of Canadian juniors.

You make as much sense as usual, I see.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

I'm curious...

Why is it assumed that Ovechkin will be a superstar within two years, before he has played a single shift in the NHL, but Nash simply got lucky?

Consider the source...

 

[GSC2k2*]

Hate to call you on the carpet, but Holik, Murray, Kovalev, and Satan were all UFA signings, and JR's current deal was also as a UFA. I'm not sure about Brindy, but given his age, it's likely he is on a UFA deal also. Those deals are not eligible as arbitration comps (as I'm sure you know).

I'll give you Peca though.

Understood. Although I used the term "comparables", i was not intending to use it in the arbitration context. I was making a point that even in the new CBA, $4 million is not that big a number. It does not get you as much of a player as other posters seem to think it does. In my haste to make a bunch of separate points all at once, I appear to have jumbled up my points into a bit of a mess as far as my post goes.

I still stand by my original assertion which (more clearly stated now that the kids are asleep and i can put some thoughts together) is that paying a little more in this year of non-arbitration eligibility in order to (a) buy out 3 years of arbitration, (b) buy out one year of free agency, and (c) place the team in a better position to try to retain Nash after he has deeper roots in the city, is a reasonable business decision. Reasonable people may disagree, but some geniuses around here would suggest that it is sheer lunacy - LUNACY, I SAY! - when they are just regurgitating the same old refrain that they have heard from other similar geniuses ("GM's are stupid, dumb owners, blah blah blah").

 

[GSC2k2*]

I can imagin a day when a player scores 50 goals, then of course wants a raise but his GM says no money is available and no money is available at any other team. Will that player try for 50 again ?

Have you ever played a sport?

 

[Dion Mustard*]

What's up with all the Nash hating lately, too? When he's on Team Canada leading the team in points he's your poster child, but when he's not playing for Toronto, he's just another overrated and overpaid player.

The Blue Jackets were nothing before Rick Nash... like Kallio said, we had some pretty crap players on the roster. Our best players were Mike Stillinger, Ray Whitney, Ron Tugnutt. Our NHL ALL STAR was Espen Knutsen.

Give me a break guys, this is ridiculous.

Maybe you should check the standings since his arrival. They ain't much with him either.

 

[X0ssbar]

let me leave you with this ... Doug MacLean is a TFM, there are no ifs, ands or buts about it CBJ fans, just look at the UFA's your incompetent GM has signed over the last couple of years that were released this offseason

Interesting...if you go and take a look - virtually every player bought out this offseason was a UFA signing at one point. Did MacLean make some bad moves?..absolutely - but he certainly ain't the only one.

...seems to me there is alot of your so called "incompetence" going around the GM ranks these days.

 

[me2]

It seems to me, that most people here think
1. UFA=big payday
2. RFA=get screwed

The question I have to ask is, why should this be? What law should there that says this should always be the way. With the way UFA age is coming down, I don't see this system lasting indefinitely anyway.

Maybe MacLean thinks
1. Best players = best pay. Screw UFA/RFA status.

Without try to exonerate MacLean too much (I think it was gross overpayment no matter how you want to look at it since Nash needs to prove more than he has to be classed a "best" player), perhaps he's think about this a little differently from most people.

So who is getting screwed by all of this? Well, basically GMs and teams thinking "old school screw the RFAs and overpay the UFAs". If MacLean screws up their payscales by making their RFAs more expensive then he's just made their life harder and his easier. It'll take them time to adjust but they will.

 

[ClosetOilersFan]

paying a little more in this year of non-arbitration eligibility in order to (a) buy out 3 years of arbitration, (b) buy out one year of free agency, and (c) place the team in a better position to try to retain Nash after he has deeper roots in the city, is a reasonable business decision. Reasonable people may disagree, but some geniuses around here would suggest that it is sheer lunacy - LUNACY, I SAY! - when they are just regurgitating the same old refrain that they have heard from other similar geniuses ("GM's are stupid, dumb owners, blah blah blah").

I couldn't say it better my self!

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I still stand by my original assertion which (more clearly stated now that the kids are asleep and i can put some thoughts together) is that paying a little more in this year of non-arbitration eligibility in order to (a) buy out 3 years of arbitration, (b) buy out one year of free agency, and (c) place the team in a better position to try to retain Nash after he has deeper roots in the city, is a reasonable business decision. Reasonable people may disagree, but some geniuses around here would suggest that it is sheer lunacy - LUNACY, I SAY! - when they are just regurgitating the same old refrain that they have heard from other similar geniuses ("GM's are stupid, dumb owners, blah blah blah").

Yes, exactly.

And I'll add something more, it's 5 years where Colombus won't have to worry about other teams making a RFA offer sheet to him. Which could become a serious possibility, we just don't know. If one player is worthy of such a move it's him.

Nash has showed unbelievable stuff ever since he stepped foot in the NHL and chances are he'll be one of the most useful player in the league. Locking that guy up for 5 years at 5M is a fair deal, even if he's still young. The Jackets are planning to build around Nash right now. I don't see what's the big problem.

 

[Paisano*]

One thing people are forgetting is under the last year of the CBA, Nash made over $4 miilion when all the incentives were added in. This contract does not include those and he will make $3.5 mill the first year. So he will actually make less than last year. He'll make $7 mill in the 5th year when he is 26, a figure that will be equal to the top stars of the league like Iginla who is making that now.

 

[Paisano*]

Scoring 41 goal by Nash was a sheer luck. Iginla along should win it. Because his goals actually reserved Calgary a playoff spot.

41 goals on a team that finsihed last, had a +/- record in triple digits, had the worst road record in hockey and played with AHL linemates and you call that lucky!? He was among the top scorers in the Swiss League, he was at the top in scoring for Team Canada was that luck too? Go ask Joe Thornton how lucky Nash is!!

What a dumb post!!

 

[HughJass*]

If revenues go up the backend of this deal will look like robbery to some of you. Why make threads like this when this CBA is barely a week old?

Furthermore, to imply MacLean didn't think about the 24% roll back when he made this deal is an insult to his intelligence. If some of you think you are GM material, then apply for the next job that is available.

 

[Pepper]

As far as comparables? do you know what about $4 mil gets you? Here are a few names:

Bobby Holik
Glen Murray
Rod Brind'Amour
Alexei Freakin' Kovalev
Miro Satan
Mike Peca
JR Roenick (closer to $5, actually)

Offer me any two of those guys for Nash. I will own you (or pwn you, as the kids say these days apparently).

Incidentally, of course we are all talking about the fact that Nash is going to receive $3.5 mil this year. Less than Hejduk.

To me, Hejduk is a comparable I could easily overcome. He lowballed himself badly. Him not making a shade under $5 mil is a failure of his agent. Put him in the above pile, and his salary is the odd one out.

The main premise seems to be that Rick Nash, the top goal scorer in the league (and the only teenager to ever do so, I believe), sucks. He plays a one-dimensional game. That is like saying Beethoven was a decent composer but his vision was for s**t. Or that Albert Einstein really sucked at grooming his hair.

As far as using up cap room. That would be a worthwhile issue for McLean - if he planned on using it all.

Think a little bit in the future. The NHL has recouped its revenue, say 4 years from now. Revenues are at $2.2 bil. The cap is $47.6 mil. Max players are then earning $9.52 million. Nash has rung up about 200 or 225 goals in those four years and is a perennial all-star. What do you think Nash is going to ask for on the RFA market? How about the year after that? Does a small market like Columbus hold him then?

I've agreed with you on pretty much everything during the CBA war but let me just say that you're totally off the mark there.

COMPARABLES doesn't mean UFAs or older players who are getting similar money, it means players who are close to you in age & production & intanglibles.

Zero players on your list are comprables to Nash.

If you claim that your CBA knowledge is that high level, you should know that.

Arbitrators don't use 30+ UFAs when comparing 21y players with 2 season in the NHL, that should be obvious to everyone.

No matter how much you twist this, Nash robbed Maclean blind.

No RFA rights, no arbitration rights, no leverage whatsoever. Look what Minny did with Gaborik (comparable to Nash btw). They gave him a proposal and told him to take it or sit out. AFter 2 weeks of thinking he took it. Needless to say, Gaborik is earning less than half what Nash is getting (on average).

Maclean could have gone the same route but he didn't.

Brutal overspending.

 

[eye]

Understood. Although I used the term "comparables", i was not intending to use it in the arbitration context. I was making a point that even in the new CBA, $4 million is not that big a number. It does not get you as much of a player as other posters seem to think it does. In my haste to make a bunch of separate points all at once, I appear to have jumbled up my points into a bit of a mess as far as my post goes.

I still stand by my original assertion which (more clearly stated now that the kids are asleep and i can put some thoughts together) is that paying a little more in this year of non-arbitration eligibility in order to (a) buy out 3 years of arbitration, (b) buy out one year of free agency, and (c) place the team in a better position to try to retain Nash after he has deeper roots in the city, is a reasonable business decision. Reasonable people may disagree, but some geniuses around here would suggest that it is sheer lunacy - LUNACY, I SAY! - when they are just regurgitating the same old refrain that they have heard from other similar geniuses ("GM's are stupid, dumb owners, blah blah blah").

I'm glad another poster put your cocky butt back into it's rightful place. For an agent or a self proclaimed CBA expert you think you would do your homework. I never called Nash anything but a great player but also think he is somewhat 1 dimensional. He rarely passes the puck and his defensive game still needs work. As a RFA McLean was out to lunch on this signing as are all other GM's that are rolling the dice on these 5 year deals. 1 career ending injury of any type and the organization will suffer for years. Just ask Raptors fans.

As for your claim that Nash was the only teen to score over 40 once again you better do your homework before making such claims. Just off the top of my head, Gretzky over 50 and 135 pts, Jimmy Carson over 50 and 100 pts., Dale Hawerchuk over 50 and 100 pts., Mario Lemieux had over 40 and there's probably more if you check around.

 

[allelsefails]

Maybe you should check the standings since his arrival. They ain't much with him either.

So true, been successively worse since inauguration - yet as the face of the franchise last year, attendance during the regular season was still around 97%. A season in which they were among the firsts out of the playoffs.

 

[jacketracket*]

let me leave you with this ... Doug MacLean is a TFM, there are no ifs, ands or buts about it CBJ fans, just look at the UFA's your incompetent GM has signed over the last couple of years that were released this offseason

Where were you when the signings were made? Had you been poo-pooing them then, you'd have something. Calling MacLean out after the fact, for deals that were considered good moves at the time, doesn't make you a great seer, but more a Nostra-dumbass type ...

 

[GSC2k2*]

I've agreed with you on pretty much everything during the CBA war but let me just say that you're totally off the mark there.

COMPARABLES doesn't mean UFAs or older players who are getting similar money, it means players who are close to you in age & production & intanglibles.

Zero players on your list are comprables to Nash.

If you claim that your CBA knowledge is that high level, you should know that.

Arbitrators don't use 30+ UFAs when comparing 21y players with 2 season in the NHL, that should be obvious to everyone.

No matter how much you twist this, Nash robbed Maclean blind.

No RFA rights, no arbitration rights, no leverage whatsoever. Look what Minny did with Gaborik (comparable to Nash btw). They gave him a proposal and told him to take it or sit out. AFter 2 weeks of thinking he took it. Needless to say, Gaborik is earning less than half what Nash is getting (on average).

Maclean could have gone the same route but he didn't.

Brutal overspending.

Please refer to my subsequent explanatory post regaridng my use of the term "comparables".

 

[GSC2k2*]

I'm glad another poster put your cocky butt back into it's rightful place. For an agent or a self proclaimed CBA expert you think you would do your homework. I never called Nash anything but a great player but also think he is somewhat 1 dimensional. He rarely passes the puck and his defensive game still needs work. As a RFA McLean was out to lunch on this signing as are all other GM's that are rolling the dice on these 5 year deals. 1 career ending injury of any type and the organization will suffer for years. Just ask Raptors fans.

As for your claim that Nash was the only teen to score over 40 once again you better do your homework before making such claims. Just off the top of my head, Gretzky over 50 and 135 pts, Jimmy Carson over 50 and 100 pts., Dale Hawerchuk over 50 and 100 pts., Mario Lemieux had over 40 and there's probably more if you check around.

Cocky? Whatever.

Regarding Nash's dimensions, refer to my earlier post in this thread about that angle specifically.

Regarding career-ending injuries, that is why longer term contracts are insured. That risk is accordingly addressed and is not a relevant factor (except for the applicable deductible).

As for my claim that "Nash was the only teen to score over 40" and "once again better do your homework before making such claims", perhaps you need to read my post before ASCRIBING such a claim to me. My claim was that Nash is the only teenager to lead the league in goal scoring.

 

[Pepper]

Please refer to my subsequent explanatory post regaridng my use of the term "comparables".

I saw that but I feel your explanatory post is just poor damage control, no offense.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Am I missing something here? Rick Nash is a great young player that has had good fortune in finding the net early in his career but what was Doug McLean thinking? After whining about high salaries and how his 4th liners were making more money than the Blue Jackets ownership he goes out and makes this unnecesary and unprovoked offer to Nash who is a RFA. In essence, he actually gave Nash over 7 million per if you take the 24% rollback into cosideration and set a bad precedent for the entire league and future negoatiatons with RFA's. What if the puck doesn't go in as often for the somewhat one dimensional Rick Nash?

With all the stupid contracts being offered I can already anticipate Bettman going after 3 year max length contracts in the next CBA.

With a cap in place this is completely unimportant. Teams cannot spend over the cap so there is nothing to worry about at all. That will keep salaries in check.

 

[Pepper]

With a cap in place this is completely unimportant. Teams cannot spend over the cap so there is nothing to worry about at all. That will keep salaries in check.

League-wide that's not a problem but it causes huge problems to certain teams (Atlanta & Ottawa come to my mind) where there are comparable players in similar situations. When they see Nash getting that ridiculous contract, they will use it as a benchmark. Also Nash's contract can be used as an example in arbitration.

That can screw up some certain teams pretty badly and this can really affect BJ's team-building as well.

 

[Dion Mustard*]

So true, been successively worse since inauguration - yet as the face of the franchise last year, attendance during the regular season was still around 97%. A season in which they were among the firsts out of the playoffs.

Listen, I applaud the fan support the Blue Jackets get, but, as the only major attraction in town (yes, I know the Buckeyes play there too), I expect it. It's yet to be seen if 5 more years with no playoffs if the fans are still there. And judging by some of MacLean's decisions, it is quite possible.

Look at it this way, you just couched up $27 million to a kid who since his arrival, the team has gotten worse. Maybe you should be using that money to find a couple faces for your team, so they could actually make the playoffs (And i doubt anyone thinks Berard or Prusek are those guys).

My claim was that Nash is the only teenager to lead the league in goal scoring.

Not to be picky, but he didn't lead, he tied with two other guys for the top spot. To lead is to be out front on your own, IMO. Plus, those two other guys had a hell of a lot more points. Moreover then that, I don't care how many goals he scored. The Jackets were out of the playoff race at Christmas. While Iggy and Kovi's teammates were more concerned with making the dance, CBJ players spent half the year feeding Nash in the slot. Considering what the Jackets record was last year, and what Nash's stats look like without the goal total, you'd be wise to stop talking about what this kid did ONCE.

Why when Jagr and Lindros tied for most points one year, did the Art Ross go to Jagr for having more goals, yet when these three tie, no such tie breaker is used?

League-wide that's not a problem but it causes huge problems to certain teams (Atlanta & Ottawa come to my mind) where there are comparable players in similar situations. When they see Nash getting that ridiculous contract, they will use it as a benchmark. Also Nash's contract can be used as an example in arbitration.

That can screw up some certain teams pretty badly and this can really affect BJ's team-building as well.

You're absolutly right Pepper. While Heatley hasn't recovered fully from the accident, no one in their right mind would take Nash over a healthy Heater. And Kovi, at this point has proven he is better then Nash. So, here the Thrashers are, possibly up the creek when dealing wiith these two because of a stupid move by Doug MacLean.

 

[DougKnowsBest]

The bottom line is when this deal was drawn up, the CBJ were more concerned with protecting an asset than RFA precident being set for other teams. I know its open season on bashing DM but let me defenend him on this point. He is well aware of the dangers of overpaying RFA. IN fact we let one of our first 2nd round picks walk because he was demanding to much and DM didnt want to blow the RFA curve.

This deal was bigger than any one aspect, or anyone year of the deal. It was about rewarding and tying up one of the leagues best young players. I will admit I wish the cap hit number was a million less a year. But I dont think it is such a grave error that it deserves all this turmoil.