Doug Jarvis Ironman

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by UnrefinedCrude, Aug 10, 2011.

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  1. UnrefinedCrude

    UnrefinedCrude Registered User

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    Doug Jarvis holds the NHL record for consecutive games at 964.
    Total NHL games 964!!!

    means he played a little over 12 (12 plus 2 games, actually,) seasons without missing a game, then retired!!! (I know he was sent down to the minors, but he never resumed his NHL career.)

    seems impossible in the current era for this to ever happen again.
     
  2. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    Thats for sure. And no thanks for the reminder Crude; Toronto drafted him in 75, immediately traded him to Montreal for Nova Scotia Voyageur Greg Hubick. Remember Gregory Hubick?. I surely dont. One season & back to the minors. Exactly where he belonged. Exactly why the Habs had him down there for about 3 years before stealing Jarvis. :facepalm:
     
  3. Buck Aki Berg

    Buck Aki Berg Done with this place

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    In fairness, is Jarvis known for anything other than his ironman streak? Pretty sure the Habs would have won those four Stanley Cups without him (though you can't argue his PK proficiency :nod:).

    What I always found funny is that he ended up playing 82 games in the 85-86 season, because of a disparity in games played between Washington and Hartford at the time of his trade.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2011
  4. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Skills

    Excellent faceoff man. Would take key faceoffs in the defensive zone. Top defensive center on the team yet took very few penalties. Played against the #1 line - Trottier, Ratelle,Clarke thus allowing Jacques Lemaire to play on the offensive line with Lafleur and Shutt.

    All that matters is the Canadiens won four Stanley Cups with him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2011
  5. Buck Aki Berg

    Buck Aki Berg Done with this place

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    Thanks for the insight .. I wasn't even alive for his days with the Habs dynasty, so I appreciate getting set straight. Seems like all you ever hear about is the ironman streak, with a few words tacked on about his skills on the penalty kill, so it's definitely good to get a little more context :nod:
     
  6. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    No worries. Stats' of course dont tell the whole story. As pointed out above, the guy was an extremely useful defensive specialist who could both frustrate & shut down the best in the league at that time. Reliable and responsible, injury free throughout his career; and yes, a very valuable part of the Canadiens' Machinery. Indeed, just the kind of guy Toronto couldve' used in spades & was actually a throwback to the kind of prototypical forward once so valued by the Leafs. Instead we get winger/d-man Greg Hubrick in exchange for Jarvis, a player who as I do re-call upon reflection was like watching a blind man trying to sup broth;
    with a fork.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2011
  7. JoeMalone

    JoeMalone Registered User

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    Steve Larmer likely would have broken it if he hadn't been a contract hold-out for the Blackhawks. Wirtz kept lowballing him, figuring that he was so close to the record (884 games) that he would sign just to keep it going.

    Larmer stuck to his guns, and eventually got dealt to the Rangers, but the streak was over.
     
  8. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Very True

    Very true.

    Larmer's streak was just as impressive, perhaps more so given his first line responsibilities and that he was viewed as a player that the opposition had to defend when playing the Hawks.
     
  9. MS

    MS 1%er

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    It’ll be tough but I wouldn’t be shocked if someone gets there. Henrik Sedin is right now at about 500 games. Larmer obviously came close.

    His Selke win?

    Worth noting that Larmer actually got hurt later in his first season with NYR, so even if you take out the holdout, he would have fallen short of Jarvis in terms of consecutive GP while eligible to play and on an NHL roster.
     
  10. JoeMalone

    JoeMalone Registered User

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    Hard to say he would have suffered that injury playing for the Blackhawks, or if he would have just toughed it out if he was in sniffing distance of the record. Once the streak is over, it's easier to tell a guy to take a few games off.
     
  11. reckoning

    reckoning Registered User

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    I don't think it's more unlikely to happen in todays game. Tim Horton held the record for the longest streak by a defenceman, but both Karlis Skrastins and Jay Bouwmeester have surpassed that since the lockout.
     
  12. kdb209

    kdb209 Registered User

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    Impressive, nah.

    You want impressive - Glenn Hall's 502 consecutive complete games (551 if you include playoffs) as a goalie w/o a mask - every minute of every game (except when pulling the goalie).
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
  13. Peter9

    Peter9 Registered User

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    In fairness, even if one never saw Jarvis play and knew nothing else about him, wouldn't the fact that Scotty Bowman, one of the greatest coaches in NHL history, had him in action in every game played over four Stanley-Cup winning seasons by one of the great dynasty teams in NHL history indicate he was something pretty special?
     
  14. jumptheshark

    jumptheshark Rebooting myself Sponsor

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    Doug jarvis was one of the better two way centermen in the league and he could shut down your best center. jarvis was also better then average on the dot

    If Jarvis was 6-1 and not 5-9--that would have been interesting
     
  15. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

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    Jarvis was a good piece but pretty special isn't how one would describe a role player who played on one of the most stacked dynasties in history, compared to their opponents.

    Doug Gilmour or Dave Keon were pretty special players, similar although way better players than Jarvis.
     
  16. Peter9

    Peter9 Registered User

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    Jarvis was pretty special. He was a bit more than a role player because he played, at a superb level, several roles. Gilmour and Keon were stars. Lafleur and Howe were superstars.
     
  17. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

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    Maybe we have a different definition of pretty special. Jarvis was a usefull player who was very good defensively and in the dot as well but if he had played for another team and didn't win those 4 cups would you still call him really special?

    If Doug Jarvis was pretty special there were probably at least 100 guys who fit that bill any year he played, Craig Ramsay being the obvious example and one that isn't talked about much.

    This isn't a slight against Jarvis as teams need most all their players to step up to win cups but honestly if one were to say the Habs would never have won those 4 cups if player a,b,c,d,e,f,g wasn't on the team.

    Would Jarvis be any higher than 5th-10th (probably closer to 10th than 5th) in his best year?

    Let's for arguments say that he would be the 7th overall in any such poll or even coaches mind in the matter. Would that still even be called pretty special?

    Maybe I'm nitpicking here but pretty special means more IMO than a decent 2 way center and type of player and impact that Jarvis had on his teams.

    The more I look at Jarvis the more he looks like a role player who happened to start his career on a team with a 4 year playoff run and has a great consecutive game streak as well.
     
  18. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Details

    Doug Jarvis did not happen to start his career on a team with a 4 year playoff run but was obtained specifically in a post draft trade, detailed up thread, to replace Henri Richard. Coming directly from Junior he filled the important checking center and PK role, enabling Jacques Lemaire to fill important roles on the top two lines for the next four seasons until retirement.

    Craig Ramsey was not a center so he could NOT fill the role. Which other NHL centers had the skills that Jarvis brought AND WERE AVAILABLE? Centers like Luce, Goring were not available. Larry Patey was available at a cost of a starting line-up player - Blues traded Wayne Merrick to get Patey.

    So within the context of the NHL and value to the team, Jarvis was definitely special.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  19. Peter9

    Peter9 Registered User

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    The observations made above by two of our colleagues, Canadiens1958 and Killion, accurately describe Jarvis's value to the team--so well that I won't bother to elaborate.

    It's also worth noting that coach Scotty Bowman was notorious for benching players when their performances were not up to standard--and the standard was very high on that superb dynasty team. Not once in those four Stanley Cup winning years did Bowman rest Jarvis although the team, one of the greatest in NHL history, was loaded with talent. Those four years were Jarvis's first four years in the NHL, and it was precisely because of Jarvis's value to the team that his consecutive game record got underway.

    For an interesting description of Bowman's coaching style, including his benching of players, see this 1993 Sports Illustrated article.

    Edit: Not sure my linking effort works, so here is the address for the SI article:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1138058/1/index.htm
     
  20. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

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    I'm fully aware that Ramsey was a winger, he's just a guy that doesn't get much attention because he played in buffalo and not Montreal.

    Jarvis was a 4th line checking center who played on the PK on a team that had a stacked defense and a great goalie.

    If Jarvis was pretty special i guess that would make Kris Draper extremely special and while draper was a fine player and fellow Pete grad no one is calling him pretty special even with his role on 4 cup teams.

    The term "pretty special" should be reserved for players that actually were that IMO but i guess we can agree to disagree on this one.
     
  21. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Draper and Ramsay

    Kris Draper floundered in the Winnipeg organization for a few years before Scotty Bowman defined a role for him in Detroit. Even so his overall performance did not match that of Doug Jarvis nor did he make an instant transition from junior to the NHL.

    Craig Ramsay, another Peterborough grad like Jarvis and Draper made a fairly quick transition from junior to the NHL as a LW. Benefited defensively from the smaller Buffalo ice surface, less effective on the regulation NHL ice surface. Solid defensively overall but never able to dominate a good offense in key situations the way Jarvis/Gainey/Roberts could.

    1977 playoffs game 6 vs NYI on Long Island:

    http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?O19770040

    Dominated the Trottier line offensively and defensively from the opening face-off in the clinching game. Same Islander team that had swept the Sabres and Ramsay in the previous round. That is the difference between a Doug Jarvis and a Craig Ramsay or a Kris Draper.
     
  22. Peter9

    Peter9 Registered User

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    You are insulting us in claiming in your last sentence that we are arguing that the term "pretty special" should not be reserved for players who actually are that. No, we do not disagree that the term pretty special should be reserved for players that actually were that. Where we disagree is on whether Jarvis was in fact pretty special.

    Your evaluation of Jarvis gets worse and worse the more board members who actually saw him play tell you of his value. For some reason you seem resistant to the point of absurdity.

    Your description of Jarvis as "a 4th line checking center who played the PK on a team that had a stacked defense and a great goalie" is demeaning to Jarvis and grossly underestimates his value. It underlines what I have said before on this board: the impossibility of fairly evaluating players when one has never seen them play. It also underlines the failure to accord appropriate respect to players who have defensive skills, the mindless focus on goals and assists, on statistics, rather than on what actually happens on the ice. Those two points are related. Those who never saw a player perform and who discard the evaluations of long-time fans who actually saw the player perform are relegated to black and white numbers in their evaluations, which suffer accordingly, particularly with respect to players given defensive responsibilities.

    Jarvis came to the Canadiens because Scotty Bowman was adamant about it. Bowman had attempted to have the Canadiens draft him, but he was overruled and the Toronto Maple Leafs grabbed him. The trade that sent Jarvis to the Canadiens soon after the draft is regarded as one of the Maple Leafs' worst ever. (The trade that sent Jarvis to the Washington Capitals is regarded as one of the worst the Canadiens ever made, although the inclusion of Rod Langway in that deal plays a huge part in that characterization. But Jarvis played an important role in transforming the Capitals and he went on to win the Selke trophy in his second season in Washington).

    Jarvis was the NHL's premier defensive center while with the Canadiens, and the line he played on was regarded as the NHL's best two-way line. He, Bob Gainey and Jimmy Roberts, Rick Chartraw or whoever else played on the right wing often contributed important goals, particularly in tight games when they were sent out to preserve a lead. As Gainey said of the line: "We think offensively. We want the puck. If we get a goal against the other team's big line, we have a psychological edge." Jarvis was a solid player in all aspects of the game. He had been a leading scorer in OHA junior hockey, although even then his superb defensive skills were evident (and the reason Bowman was desperate to get him). Since he was the NHL's best defensive center on a line sent out to contain the opposition's top players and since he spent a lot of time killing penalties, his scoring opportunities with the Canadiens were somewhat limited, but, given the opportunity, he was certainly more than capable on offense.

    Jarvis was the NHL's best at winning faceoffs. He was a superb penalty killer. He was tough and perhaps the most resilient player in the league, as shown by his consecutive games streak over 12 seasons. He sometimes played through injury or illness. He was also an incredibly consistent performer, again as shown by his consecutive games streak. No coach ever benched him or rested him. Finally, he was an extremely intelligent player. That's the primary reason he has had a successful career in coaching.

    Jarvis was indeed pretty special. But I recognize we are not going to convince you. Your version of NHL history is not mine, and for that I am grateful.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  23. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    Well no, not quite Hardyvan. As C58 & Peter9 have pointed out Scotty Bowman had a bead on Dougie Jarvis through his Junior years with the Pete's under Roger Neilson, where he logged a lot of ice-time, used in virtually all crucial situations both offensively & defensively, in his last season combining for 133 points (74-75). He was a smart player who only needed to be taught a lesson once for it to stick & was NHL ready right out of the Draft, playing years ahead of his rookie status; followed orders, which in Bowmans case were "implied" as opposed to barked, low maintenance.

    When I think of Jarvis, its always with Bob Gainey, and really, combined, I dont think you'll find two smarter linemates, guys who really knew how to shut down top players & get into their heads so cleanly & effectively. I particularly enjoyed seeing them play with Rejean Houle' who was also an extremely intelligent player, responsible defensively but like Jarvis & Gainey was a complete opportunist, but in Reggies' case a guy who could put the puck away in the best tradition of the "Flying Frenchman".

    So Hardyvan, to suggest Doug Jarvis wasnt "special" specifically to the Montreal Canadiens' at that time & place is to deny reality & be-littles the guys contributions, which were huge. Would you suggest the Beatles wouldve been "The Beatles" had they just stuck with Stuart Sutcliffe as their drummer instead of going with Ringo Starr?. That "just anyone" instead of Javier Bardem couldve' played the role of a psycho hitman with a bad haircut in No Country for Old Men, making that movie really click, and for which he won a Best Supporting Actor Academy Award?.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  24. Does anybody know what Bouwmeester's streak is at? Doubt he catches Jarvis, but...
     
  25. Wee Baby Seamus

    Wee Baby Seamus Yo, Goober, where's the meat?

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    At least 492. I'm not sure how many consecutive games he played at the end of 2003-04.
     

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