Doug Harvey - 1963

[arrbez]

Just looking things over, I'm surprised Harvey didn't at the very least make an allstar team in 1963. He led all defensemen in scoring by a 30% margin that year. Did his defensive play drop noticeably from the previous year when he won the Norris (despite finishing well back of the defensive scoring leader)? Does anyone have some insight?

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[MS]

Just looking things over, I'm surprised Harvey didn't at the very least make an allstar team in 1963. He led all defensemen in scoring by a 30% margin that year. Did his defensive play drop noticeably from the previous year when he won the Norris (despite finishing well back of the defensive scoring leader)? Does anyone have some insight?

It is an odd year.

Pilote had the worst year statistically of his career (save for his rookie and final seasons) but somehow broke through to win his first Norris despite a huge scoring drop from the previous season.

Harvey had a great offensive year but failed to make either post-season All-Star team.

I'm guessing that Harvey must have been visibly slowing that season but still putting up a fair few points on the PP. He must have been on that path as he was in the minors before the end of the next season.

 

[overpass]

Maybe the fact that the Rangers allowed the second most goals in the league overshadowed Harvey's 39 points.

Harvey actually scored only 12 points on the power play, fewer than he had in years. His 27 even strength points was his highest total since at least 1954-55, and possibly a career high.

 

[arrbez]

It's strikes me as odd because just the year before it would seem that his defensive skills were still thought to be elite. He didn't win that 1962 Norris on offense alone, because his 30 point were well behind Talbot's 47.

The next season he outscores the field pretty handily, and not even a second-team vote. Granted, the Rangers were weak in 1963 (22-36-12), but they weren't very good in 1962 either (26-32-12)

 

[Peter9]

Harvey not only won the Norris and was first All-Star in 1961-62, but also finished second in Hart voting behind only Jacques Plante. At that time, voting was conducted in two stages, halfway through the season and at season's end. Harvey's votes for the Hart were 53 and 7 for a total of 60. His votes for the Norris were 83 and 19 for 102. I can't find a breakdown of the all-star voting for 1961-62. Anyway, the point is that Harvey's decline MAY have begun sometime in the second half of the 1961-62 season. The all-star voting for that season would be the best indication as to whether that were true (if anyone has it).

 

[GNick42]

Harvey was rumoured to be heavy drinker, going to NY make have spiked this even higher.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Reading the Stats

Some background having seen Doug Harvey play for app 15 years. During the 1961-62 season Doug Harvey was also the Rangers player-coach leading them to a surprising 4th place finish and the playoffs. His defense play was up to his usual standards however the dual role increased stress and fatigue and he gave up the coaching role before the start of the next season.His efforts 1961-62 were recognized during All-Star and award voting.

The 1962-63 season saw a defensive decline as age caught up and his mobility suffered a bit.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/h/harvedo01.html

For some who just paper discussions with stats, a full and proper presentation should be expected. If you look at Doug Harvey's stats for the era in question you will notice the PIM stats - to the right of the points, rose from 42 to 92 minutes an indication that his defensive play and mobility declined. More striking when you go back three seasons for a similar comparison.

As for the Norris and All-Star voting. The two vote factor showed that in 1962 the other d-men were improving while Doug Harvey was starting to show his age. Pierre Pilote won the Norris in 1963
despite missing game due to injury. Tim Horton was a viable candidate but split the voting with teammates.

 

[Axxellien]

Harvey's role & end result in NYC were different than his years in Montreal...Perhaps the pundits had started looking elsewhere...

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

So- I'm still having my look-see concerning the statistical run for Harvey in this season. Normally, I try to find some macro-trends to find some insight as to what happened. Before I get to this, I DID find one micro-snapshot-- and it's an absolute shocker.

Thursday, March 14 1963- it's the Rangers' penultimate road game- against the Red Wings. Rangers are playing for nothing but pride at this point- Detroit (presumably) is battling Montreal for 3rd-place in the standings and avoiding the Wales Trophy winner in the first Playoff Round. Detroit takes a 2-0 lead after one... but in the 2nd period, New York manages to catch up at 3-3. Then, the comprehensive collapse. The final score is Detroit 9, New York 4. Doug Harvey is on the ice for ALL EIGHT even-strength goals. [Suppose it's more likely than not that he's was there for the Red Wings' lone power-play marker, as well.]

Even accounting for that stunner, Harvey's second half of 62-63 doesn't seem qualitatively inferior to his first half. Still, probably not a good time to have a "worst-game-of-career" candidate.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Some terrible reasearch with accompany jibber-jabber has been presented.

Actual data linked below for all to peruse. Macro/micro researcher did not provide these links.

1964 Bruins vs Leafs
Boston Bruins - Toronto Maple Leafs - January 18th, 1964
1960 Rangers vs Canadiens
New York Rangers - Montréal Canadiens - January 21st, 1960
1963 Rangers vs Wings
New York Rangers - Detroit Red Wings - March 14th, 1963
1969 Bruins vs Canadiens
Boston Bruins - Montréal Canadiens - November 1st, 1969
Jim Neilson :
Jim Neilson Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Teams and players will be involved in outlier games. 1963 Rangers Harvey was playing either with a rookie Jim Neilson. Jim Neilson was also -6 that game. 3rd and 5th link.Factor out that game Harvey's season becomes +5, Neilson -20.

Other outlier games, samples provided. 1st, 2nd, 4th links.

Bruins vs Leafs, 1964, Bruins win 11-0. Leafs played a depth goalie. Horton was -6, Stanley was -7. Leafs won SC.

Bruins vs Canadiens, 1969. Canadiens win 9-2 against a tired Bruins team, last game, returning from a western trip. Bruins win 1970 SC.

Rangers vs Canadiens, 1960. Canadiens sitting at home waiting for 4 days, Rangers on a 5 game road trip. Rangers 4th game in 7 days all on the road. Canadiens win 11-2.

Outlier games have reasons and come out in the wash.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Some terrible reasearch (sic) with accompany (sic) jibber-jabber has been presented.
1963 Rangers vs Wings
New York Rangers - Detroit Red Wings - March 14th, 1963
1963 Rangers Harvey was playing either (sic?/huh?) with a rookie Jim Neilson. Jim Neilson was also -6 that game. 3rd and 5th link.Factor out that game Harvey's season becomes +5, Neilson -20.
Outlier games have reasons and come out in the wash.

I'll deal with this later- since (and I'm saying this in all honesty) quite frankly, the language and word-usage errors do make it difficult for me to understand exactly what the point is, here. I guess the implication is that Harvey's statistical performance that day can be put down to partnering with Nielson(?)

Anyway... moving on to the comprehensible text here in this thread...

Just looking things over, I'm surprised Harvey didn't at the very least make an allstar team in 1963. He led all defensemen in scoring by a 30% margin that year. Did his defensive play drop noticeably from the previous year when he won the Norris (despite finishing well back of the defensive scoring leader)?

Yeah, me, too. I see NO calculus that results in any conclusion other than that Harvey was still one of the four best Defensemen in the league- even at age 38, even with his 92 penalty minutes [By the way, that PiM total was thoroughly eclipsed by Carl Brewer- (and pipped by Gadsby, for the matter of that) but of course, Carl Brewer was 'playing-for-a-winner'].

Granted, the Rangers were weak in 1963 (22-36-12), but they weren't very good in 1962 either (26-32-12)

And THAT's really a great point. Thing is, The 61-62 Rangers DID eke into the playoffs, and improbably gave champion Toronto about as rough a ride in the Cup Semis as they received from Chicago in the Final. The next year, they were judged to have declined by not making The Playoffs- and then (as now), whenever teams decline year-over-year, criticism of the Superstars comes to-the-fore, justly or not.

Harvey was rumoured to be heavy drinker, going to NY make have spiked this even higher.

Yeah- well... I suppose I shouldn't be joking about such a serious matter as this point- but I couldn't help but think of President Lincoln's quip re: Ulysses Grant when reading that one (i.e.: find out what brand he drinks, and send a case of it to all of his colleagues...)

 

[The Panther]

A bit off-topic, but what happened that Harvey played 2 games for Detroit in 1966-67? I guess they coaxed him out of retirement first (as Bowman / St.Louis did a year later), but why only 2 games? Strange to think he was Gordie Howe's teammate for a matter of hours.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Harvey was not retired. Playing in the minors.