Doug Gilmour in St. Louis and Calgary.

[scott clam]

As everyone knows, Doug Gilmour is one of the most popular Leafs ever. His play from 1992-94 was some of the most dominant and inspired two-way hockey in NHL history, especially in the playoffs. His relatively short peak in Toronto is so revered that he remains a folk hero in this city and the rabid love of Leaf fans of a certain age will lead some to say that he is somewhat overrated because of it. I won't dispute that: leafs stars have a habit of becoming overrated before they are (often) ran out of town.

However I will maintain that his play in St Louis and Calgary is criminally underrated, especially his 86-87 season and his 89 playoffs. I was born in the late 80s and have seen a lot more footage of him with Calgary than in St Louis but for those who are old enough to remember I must ask: just how good was he really? based on what I've seen he looks like pretty much the same player as in Toronto and for me he's in my top 100 (not the most popular opinion). Whereabouts might some of you rank him?

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[GlitchMarner]

Gilmour was a favorite of mine when I was a younger fan. Still like him and respect him as a player.

I think I wouldn't quite put him in the top 100 all-time (if considering non-NHL play anyway). He had three outstanding seasons and was a tremendous playoff performer, but his RS prime outside of his three best seasons isn't quite impressive enough to make me think he's an obvious choice for a top 100 all-time list. Without his Toronto peak, I'm not sure there's that much separating him from Rod Brind'Amour (who was a damn good player).

That said, he's a worthy HHOF'er and his peak is definitely impressive and the best peak any Leafs skater has had since before I was born.

 

[scott clam]

Gilmour was a favorite of mine when I was a younger fan. Still like him and respect him as a player.

I think I wouldn't quite put him in the top 100 all-time (if considering non-NHL play anyway). He had three outstanding seasons and was a tremendous playoff performer, but his RS prime outside of his three best seasons isn't quite impressive enough to make me think he's an obvious choice for a top 100 all-time list. Without his Toronto peak, I'm not sure there's that much separating him from Rod Brind'Amour (who was a damn good player).

That said, he's a worthy HHOF'er and his peak is definitely impressive and the best peak any Leafs skater has had since before I was born.

yeah once you include non NHL play the top 100 looks a lot different. I still have him really high among players from my lifetime anyway, just above guys like oates, hawerchuk and lafontaine (but it's close)

 

[streitz]

Well he was accused of molesting a 12 year old in st louis then whined his way out of the flames.



He can be popular in Toronto, that city has a tendency to hype up those 'types' of players, Tucker, Corson, Domi.

 

[The Panther]

I like to remind people that Gilmour's peak in the scoring race was 1987... playoffs 1986. Canada Cup 1987. Stanley Cup 1989. After that, nothing...

 

[Howie Hodge]

Well he was accused of molesting a 12 year old in st louis then whined his way out of the flames.



He can be popular in Toronto, that city has a tendency to hype up those 'types' of players, Tucker, Corson, Domi.

Actually he was "alleged" to have had an affair with his 13 year old baby sitter. She kept a diary of the events, which the jury heard, but still acquitted him.

I am not suggesting his guilt or innocence, I have no idea.

He was promptly dealt to Calgary after this...

 

[Staniowski]

Gilmour was very good in both St. Louis and Calgary. A bit underrated, I would say, for these years, and a bit overrated for his first 2 1/2 seasons on the Leafs.

He had some big playoff performances on the Blues, leading the playoffs in scoring in '86 and scoring 17 points in 11 games in '88. And, of course, was named to Team Canada for the '87 Canada Cup (ahead of Yzerman and others).

He was a very important player on the Flames, arguably their best forward during the '89 playoffs when they won the Cup. Gilmour had extremely good hockey sense and was a great all-around player. Played with a lot of tenacity and drive. One thing to note, however, is that he wasn't generally an important member of the Flames power play unit, which, overall, was the best in the NHL during his years there. MacInnis (one of the best PP performers ever) and Suter led the PP, with Nieuwendyk a constant up front, with Loob, Mullen, then Makarov, Fleury. A few others got some time, and Gilmour did too, he just wasn't generally on the first PP unit.

I remember the first game I saw Gilmour play with the Leafs, after the trade. What I specifically remember was how different Gilmour looked. I think he was really just as good, in most regards, in St Louis and Calgary, but he was immediately given a somewhat bigger role in Toronto. He was carrying the puck more, with more confidence. During those 2 1/2 years, he was running the PP, which never happened in Calgary. I assume he was getting significantly more ice-time than he had on the Flames. He was just kind of dominating the team in Toronto, and he just never had that opportunity in Calgary. Really clicked with Andreychuk. But his domination of the team ended when they acquired Sundin. Sundin outscored Gilmour every season they played together.

Gilmour had really found that sweet spot for a couple seasons (after the depth of talent in Calgary; before Sundin's arrival in T.O.), where it seemed (especially to Leaf fans) that he could do almost whatever he wanted. When you think about it, I think a lot of players go through their whole careers and never find the ideal conditions for them to shine, as Gilmour found for those 2 seasons. I don't think Gilmour was a lot better in those 2 seasons....but it kind of looked like he was. He was given more responsibility, and he ran with it.

 

[The Panther]

Gilmour was very good in both St. Louis and Calgary. A bit underrated, I would say, for these years, and a bit overrated for his first 2 1/2 seasons on the Leafs.

He had some big playoff performances on the Blues, leading the playoffs in scoring in '86 and scoring 17 points in 11 games in '88. And, of course, was named to Team Canada for the '87 Canada Cup (ahead of Yzerman and others).

He was a very important player on the Flames, arguably their best forward during the '89 playoffs when they won the Cup. Gilmour had extremely good hockey sense and was a great all-around player. Played with a lot of tenacity and drive. One thing to note, however, is that he wasn't generally an important member of the Flames power play unit, which, overall, was the best in the NHL during his years there. MacInnis (one of the best PP performers ever) and Suter led the PP, with Nieuwendyk a constant up front, with Loob, Mullen, then Makarov, Fleury. A few others got some time, and Gilmour did too, he just wasn't generally on the first PP unit.

I remember the first game I saw Gilmour play with the Leafs, after the trade. What I specifically remember was how different Gilmour looked. I think he was really just as good, in most regards, in St Louis and Calgary, but he was immediately given a somewhat bigger role in Toronto. He was carrying the puck more, with more confidence. During those 2 1/2 years, he was running the PP, which never happened in Calgary. I assume he was getting significantly more ice-time than he had on the Flames. He was just kind of dominating the team in Toronto, and he just never had that opportunity in Calgary. Really clicked with Andreychuk. But his domination of the team ended when they acquired Sundin. Sundin outscored Gilmour every season they played together.

Gilmour had really found that sweet spot for a couple seasons (after the depth of talent in Calgary; before Sundin's arrival in T.O.), where it seemed (especially to Leaf fans) that he could do almost whatever he wanted. When you think about it, I think a lot of players go through their whole careers and never find the ideal conditions for them to shine, as Gilmour found for those 2 seasons. I don't think Gilmour was a lot better in those 2 seasons....but it kind of looked like he was. He was given more responsibility, and he ran with it.

Great post, I agree on all counts. Sometimes a guy just thrives when he's suddenly put into a position of greater responsibility. (Then there's the other extreme -- the guy who disappears when his role gets bigger.)

 

[Tarantula]

He was in the Canada Cup in 87, I remember him being a great player in St Louis and Calgary before he came to TO. Toronto raised his profile as most casual fans in Ontario only know the name stars of other teams and Leaf players.

What a change when he hit Toronto. I saw a game just prior, my luck, and Edmonton was on a road trip and came back in the third with a few goals and won. The Leafs were dog food up until that point, then the big Calgary deal. The Leafs began to climb the standings with Tom Watt behind the bench I believe, next season it was Pat Burns and it was like a new team completely.

 

[seventieslord]

I like to remind people that Gilmour's peak in the scoring race was 1987... playoffs 1986. Canada Cup 1987. Stanley Cup 1989. After that, nothing...

... Not sure if serious

 

[GlitchMarner]

... Not sure if serious

I assume he means before his time with TOR.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I think he was really just as good, in most regards, in St Louis and Calgary, but he was immediately given a somewhat bigger role in Toronto. He was carrying the puck more, with more confidence. During those 2 1/2 years, he was running the PP, which never happened in Calgary. I assume he was getting significantly more ice-time than he had on the Flames. He was just kind of dominating the team in Toronto, and he just never had that opportunity in Calgary.

one of my favourite press quotes of that era is cliff fletcher after the trade, i forget how long after exactly but probably sometime in the 1993 season. (paraphrasing here) “the flames thought their number one center was joe nieuwendyk. now they know it was doug gilmour.”

 

[seventieslord]

I assume he means before his time with TOR.

OK, well that would make more sense, but that still doesn't say much.

Gilmour was only putting up elite point totals in three seasons (1987, 1993 and 1994) but he was always a consistently high scorer that would have led over many NHL teams from 1988 through 1992. He was 19th, 23rd, 24th, 25th and 26th in the seasons that The Panther referred to as "nothing". Being able to consistently place that high in scoring while also being an elite two-way player is not nothing. In fact, Gretzky, Robitaille, Yzerman, Lafontaine and Gilmour were the only players to turn up five times in the top-28 in scoring in these five seasons. (in case anyone is wondering, Hawerchuk, Lemieux, Messier, Turgeon and Larmer all did it four times).

He had the 13th most points in the league over that time, and the 15th highest PPG (if two seasons of Hakan Loob should even count; otherwise 14th). He had seasons at 12th, 17th and 18th in ESP as well, indicating that there's some truth to what Staniowski was saying about him not being the primary PP option some seasons, even though his ES production probably merited it.

 

[seventieslord]

one of my favourite press quotes of that era is cliff fletcher after the trade, i forget how long after exactly but probably sometime in the 1993 season. (paraphrasing here) “the flames thought their number one center was joe nieuwendyk. now they know it was doug gilmour.”

Seems to be accurate. Gilmour outscored Nieuwendyk at ES 0.71 to 0.64 per game during the time that they were both on the Flames. Nieuwendyk outscored him 0.38 to 0.35 per game on the PP, helping his raw production look similar to Gilmour's. Add in that he was 3 years younger and it's somewhat understandable that they thought they were making the right call.

The right call would have been to keep both, of course...

 

[GlitchMarner]

Gilmour was very good in both St. Louis and Calgary. A bit underrated, I would say, for these years, and a bit overrated for his first 2 1/2 seasons on the Leafs.

Wait... what?

 

[streitz]

Wait... what?

Yeah how can he be overrated for his back to back cups on the leafs?

 

[scott clam]

Seems to be accurate. Gilmour outscored Nieuwendyk at ES 0.71 to 0.64 per game during the time that they were both on the Flames. Nieuwendyk outscored him 0.38 to 0.35 per game on the PP, helping his raw production look similar to Gilmour's. Add in that he was 3 years younger and it's somewhat understandable that they thought they were making the right call.

The right call would have been to keep both, of course...

What's surprising to me is that Gilmour actually(just barely) outpointed Nieuwy on the PP in 89-90. I dont know how much icetime either of them got that year, but I believe it was the year after, when Doug Risebrough replaced Terry Crisp as head coach that Gilmour started to see a lot less PP time. The lessening of ice time and Riser's claims that Gilmour's "skills were diminishing" and that he wasn't worth what the money he was asking for were the reasons why Gilmour wanted out.

 

[tony d]

I've heard many words to describe Gilmour's 1992-1994 run with the Leafs. Over rated isn't 1 of them. He did quite amazing with that team and helped get Toronto as close to glory as they had been since 1967.

 

[scott clam]

I've heard many words to describe Gilmour's 1992-1994 run with the Leafs. Over rated isn't 1 of them. He did quite amazing with that team and helped get Toronto as close to glory as they had been since 1967.

I would only call it overrated in the sense that streitz(who is obviously not a Gilmour fan) suggested that some Leaf fans talk about it as if Gilmour led them to back to back cups. FWIW I think Gilmour's 93 playoff is the most impressive run by any player who's team did not reach the final, although I can see why people might argue for Peter Forsberg.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I think Gilmour did a great job in Toronto, but his heroics are talked about in tones normally reserved for guys who actually won the Cup or at least made the Finals. I don't think it's a comment on Gilmour's play as much as a comment on how everything, both good and bad, gets blown out of proportion if it happens in Toronto.

 

[scott clam]

I think Gilmour did a great job in Toronto, but his heroics are talked about in tones normally reserved for guys who actually won the Cup or at least made the Finals. I don't think it's a comment on Gilmour's play as much as a comment on how everything, both good and bad, gets blown out of proportion if it happens in Toronto.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Staniowski]

Wait... what?

I've heard many words to describe Gilmour's 1992-1994 run with the Leafs. Over rated isn't 1 of them. He did quite amazing with that team and helped get Toronto as close to glory as they had been since 1967.

Gilmour played exceptionally well those 2 years in Toronto. I don't have anything negative to say about it. I watched those Leafs teams a lot. That team really gelled, and he was certainly their leader and most important player.

I do think his play during this period is "a bit" overrated as compared to his previous 9 seasons. I mean, he was 29 and 30 years old. He had already had a very good career, had really great playoff runs in '86, '88, and '89 - he led the playoffs in scoring in '86, even though the Blues lost in the semis; and he could have won the Conn Smythe in '89, IMO he was 2nd to MacInnis during these playoffs. He finished 5th in PPG in '87 regular season (which was the highest finish in his career).

The only other thing I would say is that if there had been a best-on-best competition in the summer of '93 (the middle of Gilmour's best seasons in Toronto), and everybody was healthy, Gilmour would have been, at best, a 4th line player. At his very best, he was still not Gretzky or Lemieux or Messier. Even this is assuming he's ahead of Yzerman, Lindros, and the others. Remember Gilmour didn't make Team Canada 2 years earlier, nor did he make it 3 years later.

 

[Staniowski]

otherwise 14th

Yeah, so 14th in PPG from '88 to '92. This is not that different from his 2 big seasons with the Leafs - he finished 9th in PPG in both '92-'93 and '93-'94. His huge increase in points in '92-'93 is primarily because of his 59 points on the PP, which is by-far the highest total of his career.

 

[scott clam]

Gilmour played exceptionally well those 2 years in Toronto. I don't have anything negative to say about it. I watched those Leafs teams a lot. That team really gelled, and he was certainly their leader and most important player.

I do think his play during this period is "a bit" overrated as compared to his previous 9 seasons. I mean, he was 29 and 30 years old. He had already had a very good career, had really great playoff runs in '86, '88, and '89 - he led the playoffs in scoring in '86, even though the Blues lost in the semis; and he could have won the Conn Smythe in '89, IMO he was 2nd to MacInnis during these playoffs. He finished 5th in PPG in '87 regular season (which was the highest finish in his career).

The only other thing I would say is that if there had been a best-on-best competition in the summer of '93 (the middle of Gilmour's best seasons in Toronto), and everybody was healthy, Gilmour would have been, at best, a 4th line player. At his very best, he was still not Gretzky or Lemieux or Messier. Even this is assuming he's ahead of Yzerman, Lindros, and the others. Remember Gilmour didn't make Team Canada 2 years earlier, nor did he make it 3 years later.

Gilmour played as a left wing in the 87 Canada Cup, he could have easily been moved there again.

 

[Staniowski]

Gilmour played as a left wing in the 87 Canada Cup, he could have easily been moved there again.

Yeah, he could have. There are always centres playing the wing on these teams. Also, Gretzky and Lemieux could have played together. Many other possibilities.

My point is that Gilmour, even at his best, was not quite as good as some people believe he was. Although, players like Gilmour are always extremely valuable.