Dorion Presser - April 12,18

Ice-Tray

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Jan 31, 2006
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Take out Ovechkin's contract because it was signed a decade ago. Way too much has changed since then in regards to the salary cap and the CBA to use that as a serious comparable.

Add cap hit percentages to each of those contracts, and then you get a more honest look at where Karlsson is at. Toews and Kane's contracts would be the equivalent to about 12.2M under an 80M cap.

Subban's contract is the equivalent to about 10.4M under next season's 80M cap, and his resume at the time he signed the contract paled in comparison to Karlsson's current resume.

10.5M IMO is the floor for Karlsson. It's basically the Subban contract adjusted for the upcoming cap ceiling.

Unless Tavares or Doughty (or somebody else) pushes the ceiling higher before Karlsson signs, 12.5M is the ceiling. It doesn't mean Karlsson will get 12.5M, but he's in the conversation as a top player in the league not that far off from McDavid. Karlsson has been established as the league's #1 D to the point that the only time he isn't in the Norris conversation is if he has a season where he is hurt or has to play hurt.

GMs (and agents for that matter) know that barring some crazy unlikely outside situation (CAD hyper inflation, World War 3, etc) that the cap will continue to rise and in turn a player's overall percentage of the cap will deflate from season to season. Subban's contract is a perfect example of this. Right now, his contract is a steal because the cap his risen accordingly. At the time he signed it, it was a contract on the very high end. The contract still has 4 years left in it, and the cap has gone up enough in that time frame to make it a steal. Anybody signing Karlsson to a 7-8 year 12M type contract will know that 3 or 4 years in, comparable players might be getting 14 or 15 million.

I'm not sure I agree that it will keep going up. Attendance is down, and the cost of a night at a game is nearing a critical point in many markets. If the NHL wants to continue to fill the stands across the league I'm not sure they can continue the way they are.

I can understand a team running under the cap deciding that they don't want any players making 12 million a season. Hard to argue that there isn't merit to that plan. McDavid is the best player right now and even he can't carry what looks like a decent team out of the cellar. EK can't either, this isn't the NBA. People argue that EK carried the team last year, but while a romantic sentiment, it just isn't the case. We had several of our best players playing some of their best hockey. Take away playoff Ryan and playoff Andy for instance and we're likely out in the first round.

We need a balanced and deep team with an eye on winning the cup. To that end we need to keep control over salaries and not let outside market influences set our salary structure as much as possible. Between 10-11 is fair for a player of EKs caliber, who will have only one year in his 20's left when the deal starts, and the vast majority of the deal being paid out during the declining years of his career. As many like to point out, while he will still likely be an excellent player, statistically his best years are already behind him.

Arguing that he's the statistical anomaly who will only get better, may have a chance of being true, but shouldn't carry much weight during a contract negotiation that will see him paid until he's 37. McDavid was signed to 12.5 FOR PRIME MCDAVID, that is a 12.5 gamble you make, not a likely declining EK (still a great player, but not getting better).

Care and a cap is needed here.
 
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BonHoonLayneCornell

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Take out Ovechkin's contract because it was signed a decade ago. Way too much has changed since then in regards to the salary cap and the CBA to use that as a serious comparable.

Add cap hit percentages to each of those contracts, and then you get a more honest look at where Karlsson is at. Toews and Kane's contracts would be the equivalent to about 12.2M under an 80M cap.

Subban's contract is the equivalent to about 10.4M under next season's 80M cap, and his resume at the time he signed the contract paled in comparison to Karlsson's current resume.

10.5M IMO is the floor for Karlsson. It's basically the Subban contract adjusted for the upcoming cap ceiling.

Unless Tavares or Doughty (or somebody else) pushes the ceiling higher before Karlsson signs, 12.5M is the ceiling. It doesn't mean Karlsson will get 12.5M, but he's in the conversation as a top player in the league not that far off from McDavid. Karlsson has been established as the league's #1 D to the point that the only time he isn't in the Norris conversation is if he has a season where he is hurt or has to play hurt.

GMs (and agents for that matter) know that barring some crazy unlikely outside situation (CAD hyper inflation, World War 3, etc) that the cap will continue to rise and in turn a player's overall percentage of the cap will deflate from season to season. Subban's contract is a perfect example of this. Right now, his contract is a steal because the cap his risen accordingly. At the time he signed it, it was a contract on the very high end. The contract still has 4 years left in it, and the cap has gone up enough in that time frame to make it a steal. Anybody signing Karlsson to a 7-8 year 12M type contract will know that 3 or 4 years in, comparable players might be getting 14 or 15 million.
Yes, Ovechkin's contract is too old to be a comparable. I just pulled the top ten overall cap hits to show that while inflation will bring the next round up at some point, it hasn't happened yet and there is clearly a sizable gap between what McDavid got and what the next set of players is at currently. I don't think this is by accident or due to inflation, I think it's because nobody is on his level on the ice or in marketability. McDavid is only 21 so all those years are guaranteed prime years with no poison years attached, which I think negates the fact that there are rfa years involved. Until someone other than McDavid is at or at least near that number, I don't think it is the standard, even taking inflation in to account... maybe Karlsson and Tavares are the first ones this summer though and i have egg on my face. If it is heading to that territory, then unfortunately I feel pretty confident saying he won't be an Ottawa Senator next year.

I think the Price contract is the best comparable for Karlsson personally. It's only a year since signing, their importance to their team is similar, and they're one of if not the best players at their position. 10-11 for eight years is just right for Karlsson imo.
 
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stempniaksen

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Yes, Ovechkin's contract is too old to be a comparable. I just pulled the top ten overall cap hits to show that while inflation will bring the next round up at some point, it hasn't happened yet and there is clearly a sizable gap between what McDavid got and what the next set of players is at currently. I don't think this is by accident or due to inflation, I think it's because nobody is on his level on the ice or in marketability. McDavid is only 21 so all those years are guaranteed prime years with no poison years attached, which I think negates the fact that there are rfa years involved. Until someone other than McDavid is at or at least near that number, I don't think it is the standard, even taking inflation in to account... maybe Karlsson and Tavares are the first ones this summer though and i have egg on my face. If it is heading to that territory, then unfortunately I feel pretty confident saying he won't be an Ottawa Senator next year.

I think the Price contract is the best comparable for Karlsson personally. It's only a year since signing, their importance to their team is similar, and they're one of if not the best players at their position.

You're not taking into account comparable though. I mean, the highest paid goalies (outside of Price) are all signed for at least ~$1 million less than their counterparts on defence. Does that mean the floor for a Karlsson contract gets bumped up by ~$1 million as well? Because there's obviously a big difference between $10.5/season vs $11.5/season.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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Yes, Ovechkin's contract is too old to be a comparable. I just pulled the top ten overall cap hits to show that while inflation will bring the next round up at some point, it hasn't happened yet and there is clearly a sizable gap between what McDavid got and what the next set of players is at currently. I don't think this is by accident or due to inflation, I think it's because nobody is on his level on the ice or in marketability. McDavid is only 21 so all those years are guaranteed prime years with no poison years attached, which I think negates the fact that there are rfa years involved. Until someone other than McDavid is at or at least near that number, I don't think it is the standard, even taking inflation in to account... maybe Karlsson and Tavares are the first ones this summer though and i have egg on my face. If it is heading to that territory, then unfortunately I feel pretty confident saying he won't be an Ottawa Senator next year.

I think the Price contract is the best comparable for Karlsson personally. It's only a year since signing, their importance to their team is similar, and they're one of if not the best players at their position. 10-11 for eight years is just right for Karlsson imo.
Again , I agree and If the Senators discuss something with EK between 10 and 11 they will get it done; If Karlsson really wants to stay.. If he wants to win sooner than he reasonably expects the Sens to be able to then he won't sign for 10,11 or 12. If he wants to stay 10-11 gets it done; probably as low as 10. If the Sens play a 9 is the most we can offer game .. I think he'll say he wants to go but you never know.
 
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JD1

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The rational case for signing him for anything at McDavid or lower is stronger than the one for letting him go if he wants over 10M and it isnt particularly close.

Please stop acting like anyone who disagrees is basing it on emotion over logic.

your 6 month history here Sensung has included a lot of emotion, much less logic.
 
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JD1

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Again , I agree and If the Senators discuss something with EK between 10 and 11 they will get it done; If Karlsson really wants to stay.. If he wants to win sooner than he reasonably expects the Sens to be able to then he won't sign for 10,11 or 12. If he wants to stay 10-11 gets it done; probably as low as 10. If the Sens play a 9 is the most we can offer game .. I think he'll say he wants to go but you never know.

pretty much spot on in agreement with your numbers here
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

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Again , I agree and If the Senators discuss something with EK between 10 and 11 they will get it done; If Karlsson really wants to stay.. If he wants to win sooner than he reasonably expects the Sens to be able to then he won't sign for 10,11 or 12. If he wants to stay 10-11 gets it done; probably as low as 10. If the Sens play a 9 is the most we can offer game .. I think he'll say he wants to go but you never know.
I think so too. If we offer him somewhere in 10-11, he stays if that's what he wants.

I don't really understood the importance of a few million when you're earning so much money, in his case it will be over 100 million over his career. With the money he's earned at this point, the extra he can squeeze is completely irrelevant to him and his family until maybe 5 or more generations from now, and even then it still likely won't matter if managed/invested properly. Also humans wont last on Earth that long anyways. Easy for me to say cuz I'm not rich, but the way I feel now, I would be making the decision 100% on other factors at that point.
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

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You're not taking into account comparable though. I mean, the highest paid goalies (outside of Price) are all signed for at least ~$1 million less than their counterparts on defence. Does that mean the floor for a Karlsson contract gets bumped up by ~$1 million as well? Because there's obviously a big difference between $10.5/season vs $11.5/season.
I see your point, but imo I don't think that's really a factor.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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I think so too. If we offer him somewhere in 10-11, he stays if that's what he wants.

I don't really understood the importance of a few million when you're earning so much money, in his case it will be over 100 million over his career. With the money he's earned at this point, the extra he can squeeze is completely irrelevant to him and his family until maybe 5 or more generations from now, and even then it still likely won't matter if managed/invested properly. Also humans wont last on Earth that long anyways. Easy for me to say cuz I'm not rich, but the way I feel now, I would be making the decision 100% on other factors at that point.

Agree. I think it gets to be more about Ego than need for 12 vs 11 as an example at some point.
 

aragorn

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IMO it's in the best interest of the team over the course of the next few yrs that they should seriously look at moving EK rather than re-signing him. He's already 28 yrs old with a yr left on his current contract & while he might still be a good player for the next several yrs I would argue the team would benefit more from the assets it would receive back from an EK trade as well as be able to sign two good players for the same amount of money.

Ottawa has already started going younger & replacing there older players & need to continue this trend between now & the end of next season. Re-signing EK to a huge amount of money is only going to saddle this team with more financial problems that they already seem to be unable to deal with. I would prefer to keep adding good young players to the prospect pool with the hope that they will be able to at some future date challenge for a cup run. I doubt they will be able to afford that paying EK $12 mil per season unless these young players perform at their potential much sooner than expected. Tampa Bay IMO seems like a team that has the prospects I would like to see Ottawa acquire along with at least one good roster player & a 1st rd pick for 2019.
 

Sensung

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IMO it's in the best interest of the team over the course of the next few yrs that they should seriously look at moving EK rather than re-signing him. He's already 28 yrs old with a yr left on his current contract & while he might still be a good player for the next several yrs I would argue the team would benefit more from the assets it would receive back from an EK trade as well as be able to sign two good players for the same amount of money.

Ottawa has already started going younger & replacing there older players & need to continue this trend between now & the end of next season. Re-signing EK to a huge amount of money is only going to saddle this team with more financial problems that they already seem to be unable to deal with. I would prefer to keep adding good young players to the prospect pool with the hope that they will be able to at some future date challenge for a cup run. I doubt they will be able to afford that paying EK $12 mil per season unless these young players perform at their potential much sooner than expected. Tampa Bay IMO seems like a team that has the prospects I would like to see Ottawa acquire along with at least one good roster player & a 1st rd pick for 2019.
Just curious.

If it was Doughty and not EK who played for the Sens, woukd you be in favour of locking Drew up for 8 years?
 

JD1

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Just curious.

If it was Doughty and not EK who played for the Sens, woukd you be in favour of locking Drew up for 8 years?

right here right now personally yes I'd be ok with it.

here's the difference though

Doughty is sitting on a Norris nomination. Come contract time in July he may be a 2 time Norris winner also.

Karlsson is sitting on the worst year of his career coming off a freak injury for which there is no history on which to predict a future.

you see the difference?
 

Sensung

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right here right now personally yes I'd be ok with it.

here's the difference though

Doughty is sitting on a Norris nomination. Come contract time in July he may be a 2 time Norris winner also.

Karlsson is sitting on the worst year of his career coming off a freak injury for which there is no history on which to predict a future.

you see the difference?
As I assumed...
 

aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
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Just curious.

If it was Doughty and not EK who played for the Sens, woukd you be in favour of locking Drew up for 8 years?
Probably not, although I prefer Doughty due to the status of the team at this time & where they will be over the course of the next few yrs. I just don't think given that they will likely not be a contending team that they can afford to give one player over $10 mil. I would prefer the assets coming back & to build towards a contending team with the number of good prospects they already have plus whoever else they can accumulate should IMO build a better team than what they have now with EK or Doughty in the lineup. I imagine he is going to be asking for almost as much too.
 

Sensung

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Probably not, although I prefer Doughty due to the status of the team at this time & where they will be over the course of the next few yrs. I just don't think given that they will likely not be a contending team that they can afford to give one player over $10 mil. I would prefer the assets coming back & to build towards a contending team with the number of good prospects they already have plus whoever else they can accumulate should IMO build a better team than what they have now with EK or Doughty in the lineup. I imagine he is going to be asking for almost as much too.
Ok thanks for the info.

I think Doughty will ask for (and sign for) more.
 

OD99

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Oct 13, 2012
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I respect anyone's opinion that disagrees, but no he isn't there imo.
I would agree with this - McDavid is on a level all by himself at this stage.

That list actually makes me feel a lot better because I don't see any way Karlsson gets that close to it so I am thinking $10.5M may be the wheelhouse.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

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*sigh* once again, McDavid was offered a bigger contract than what he signed. If you want to be honest, pencil him in as a $13 mil cap hit...and add to that as it is an RFA deal.
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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*sigh* once again, McDavid was offered a bigger contract than what he signed. If you want to be honest, pencil him in as a $13 mil cap hit...and add to that as it is an RFA deal.

RFA doesn't really matter with McDavid or other players of his ilk, unless you don't think there would be a lineup of teams willing to give up their next 4 1st round picks for him. Any team in the league would give up their next 4 1st rounders for the priveledge of paying him 12.5-13 mil.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

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RFA doesn't really matter with McDavid or other players of his ilk, unless you don't think there would be a lineup of teams willing to give up their next 4 1st round picks for him. Any team in the league would give up their next 4 1st rounders for the priveledge of paying him 12.5-13 mil.

I'm thinking more along the lines that players tend to get their biggest paydays in that UFA deal. That tends to skew numbers.

But the real key is, Edmonton was willing to sign a deal with a 13+ mil cap. That is the true market for McDavid. Folks simply throwing out the numbers for the signed contract don't factor in that McDavid himself took a discount.
 

Micklebot

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I'm thinking more along the lines that players tend to get their biggest paydays in that UFA deal. That tends to skew numbers.

But the real key is, Edmonton was willing to sign a deal with a 13+ mil cap. That is the true market for McDavid. Folks simply throwing out the numbers for the signed contract don't factor in that McDavid himself took a discount.

RFA years are typically down because opposing teams are hesitant to give up the picks. Typically, the cost in picks is enough to limit the market, if not eliminate it giving the re-signing team leverage. That doesn't happen when the player the best player in the league at 20.

I had heard the initial thought was McDavid was going to sign for 13.2 or thereabouts, I hadn't heard confirmation though, I thought that was just speculation, but it wouldn't shock me.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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Thoughts in Bold: Dorion Speaks on TSN 1200’s ‘In the Box’ | The 6th Sens

The 6th sens guy has a lot of the same thoughts many here have expressed. I will add ; If Dorion was not shopping Karlsson and merely listening to offers, and as he said ;
"I’m not going to get into specifics on Bobby Ryan. The one thing I will say and it’s the only thing that I will say – I don’t want to talk about it anymore – is that there were teams that made multiple offers where he wasn’t even part of it. So let’s be clear on that. The last time we talk about it.” To me that means there were "offers" or discussions where Bobby Ryan was a part of it... Would the other team initiate that kind of dialogue? I wonder.

Hi Pierre , I am calling to find out if Karlsson is available, but I am really interested if he is, that you be willing to include Bobby Ryan. What are the chances?
 

Sensinitis

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Aug 5, 2012
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Hi Pierre , I am calling to find out if Karlsson is available, but I am really interested if he is, that you be willing to include Bobby Ryan. What are the chances?

To be fair, it might have been a "Hey, what if we take on Ryan? Would that lower the price on EK?" type of thing.
 

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