Management Dorion’s worst moves

[Imnotagoodposter]

In your opinion what are Dorion’s 3 worst moves. Try to separate Melnyk from Dorion and also stick to hockey decisions rather than Dorions issues with public speaking and nervous statements.

1. Alex Burrows

I hated the trade even without the extension. Burrows was a biting, slur saying weasel and I threw up in my mouth when he became a Sen. The extension was so obviously horrible at the time that no excuse can be made. I didn’t even care about the return I just hated this move so much so that I called TSN1200 and let loose to Ian.

2. Condon re-signing

Simply put too much teem, too much money, and too early. This was really dumb and might be #1 if not for my disgust of Burrows.

3. Colin White signing

This one hurts to say because I believe White will be a good player. My issue is that White had no arb rights and was offer sheet exempt. I like the idea of locking him up but this seemed rushed and feels like it was done for show to Chabot and fans rather than a well thought out position.

Honourable mention - Stone handling summer 2018 (hindsight for me).

Yes, let us wallow in negativity like pigs in ****! Woo!!

 

[Micklebot]

We all know about the elephant in the room at this point, but that doesn't absolve PD of responsibility for his moves.

Anyways, back on topic, I think Dorion has made as many good moves as bad moves, it's just too bad some of his worst deals were "big" deals while the deals he's clearly won are (more often than not) minor.

To be fair, his biggest move to date (and likely ever) looked really bad at first but with the benefit of hindsight is looking like a win.

Had we been offered a top 10 pick, a 20 yr old rookie scoring leader in the AHL, two NHL roster players (not cap dumps) along with a solid prospect and two 2nds, we'd have been thrilled despite the disappointment of losing a fan favourite.

It was the equivalent of getting Batherson, someone in the range of Byram, Seider, Cozens, Turcotte, or Broberg (with the potential of the lottery making it Hughes, Kakko or Dach) a 3rd (DeMelo), an RFA middle six forward (Tierney), and a couple 2nds. Not bad.

 

[Alfie11]

2. Mika Zibanejad.
Zibanejad has become a legit 1C for New York at the age of 26, and all Ottawa has to show for him is Filip Gustavsson (who is trending towards busting), JBD, and the 3rd they got for Ian Cole. They also gave up a 2nd in the Zibanejad trade. I like JBD, but when he looks like the last remaining asset for Zibanejad... that's not a good situation.

I will never have a problem with this move as it is a trade that is totally dependant on context, which isn't addressed here. Stripped of context it is a horrible move an[d whatever the Brassard to Pittsburgh deal becomes shouldn't negate the trading of a young 1B centre for a 2nd liner that immediately started to decline.

The context for this team, as always, is the limited budget. The Sens had a limited window with Karlsson being a true impact player on a below market deal and were trying to win immediately. They wanted a impact offensive centre to go with Turris. Zibanejad at the time showed some good things but was inconsistent. These types of players usually have bigger salaries. Ottawa needed (1) an impact centre that was (2) not well paid for his role. Teams aren't going to give up their inexpensive, good players without getting something substantial in return.

So limited by the supply of (1) impact offensive centres in the NHL, (2)that were available for trade and (3) that were low paid, Dorion went looking. Brassard was a guy that fit the criteria after they coughed up a 2nd rounder for the Rangers to pay a $2 million bonus. Ottawa got a player that fit in the Karlsson window for salaries of $3 million/$3.5 million/$3.5 million for three years. That was basically $3 million under market value for that type of player. They lost on the talent side but they got a player that fit their needs. It worked in the first year when the Sens made it to the conference finals. Unfortunately, Brassard (and the team) fell apart after that.

To me, Ottawa is trying to compete with a limited budget and so there are always going to be compromises. They have to make deals a "normal" team wouldn't have to. A team without money is always going to value certain players more than others, simply because they are affordable.

I'll always defend that move because it was an attempt to win, within budget limitations. It's the type of deal the team will probably have to make again in the future.

 

[Matsens15]

From what I can see he as way more good moves than bad moves.

 

[swiftwin]

#1 - Hoffman trade by a huge margin.

~~Big Gap~~

#2 - Signing Anderson at the beginning of the 2017-18 season. There was no reason for this, he could have waited until the end of the season.

#3 - Zibanejad. This is a roller coaster ride. Part of that trade was financially motivated (blame Melnyk). Part of it was a desire to win-now, which kinda worked as Brassard was better in the 2017 playoffs. Part of if was Zib not motivated and not developing here. He ended up being better than expected, but at the same time, we got a pretty good return for Brass.

 

[Alfie11]

The three worst deals (IMO):

1. Hoffman trade: They wanted to get rid of Hoffman ASAP and wanted a player in return that would help them. Boedker is horrible and while I don't know what else was available, getting useless player that wasn't much cheaper salary wise is a total waste.

2. Duchene (Turris) trade: This was a legit firing offence. Justifiable when it first happened, the fact is that Dorion was horribly wrong in his assessment of his team. The Duchene to Columbus trade is irrelevant. They traded a first rounder only to see the team flop right after and gave up a top 5 pick.

3. Not keeping Methot/not getting a proper replacement/getting Oduya: They should have found a way to keep Methot in the expansion draft. Barring that, they should have spent the money or trade assets to get a legit top 4 to play with Karlsson. Instead they got Oduya.

 

[Emerica]

 

[Hale The Villain]

Hard to pick just 3, but if I had to:

1. Zibanejad trade

Rangers have a 26YR old legit #1 center with 56P in 46GP and we have JBD, Tychonick and Gustavsson to show for it

2. Hoffman trade

Traded a top line/top 6 winger for a cap dump in Boedker. Made worse by the fact that Wilson immediately flipped him for a 2nd.

3. Duchene trades

Turned what amounts to Turris (or Girard, Kamenev, 2nd), Bowers and a 4th OVR pick (Byram) into Abramov, Thomson and Abramov.

As a general rule Dorion has been more-or-less fine with it comes to the smaller deals, but he's badly screwed up pretty much every major trade he's made.

 

[JD1]

To be fair, his biggest move to date (and likely ever) looked really bad at first but with the benefit of hindsight is looking like a win.

Had we been offered a top 10 pick, a 20 yr old rookie scoring leader in the AHL, two NHL roster players (not cap dumps) along with a solid prospect and two 2nds, we'd have been thrilled despite the disappointment of losing a fan favourite.

It was the equivalent of getting Batherson, someone in the range of Byram, Seider, Cozens, Turcotte, or Broberg (with the potential of the lottery making it Hughes, Kakko or Dach) a 3rd (DeMelo), an RFA middle six forward (Tierney), and a couple 2nds. Not bad.

To be truly fair

If you don't see something coming, but only see it after the fact, its hindsight

If you do see it coming, its foresight

What one man sees in hindsight another sees in foresight

 

[JD1]

I will never have a problem with this move as it is a trade that is totally dependant on context, which isn't addressed here. Stripped of context it is a horrible move an[d whatever the Brassard to Pittsburgh deal becomes shouldn't negate the trading of a young 1B centre for a 2nd liner that immediately started to decline.

The context for this team, as always, is the limited budget. The Sens had a limited window with Karlsson being a true impact player on a below market deal and were trying to win immediately. They wanted a impact offensive centre to go with Turris. Zibanejad at the time showed some good things but was inconsistent. These types of players usually have bigger salaries. Ottawa needed (1) an impact centre that was (2) not well paid for his role. Teams aren't going to give up their inexpensive, good players without getting something substantial in return.

So limited by the supply of (1) impact offensive centres in the NHL, (2)that were available for trade and (3) that were low paid, Dorion went looking. Brassard was a guy that fit the criteria after they coughed up a 2nd rounder for the Rangers to pay a $2 million bonus. Ottawa got a player that fit in the Karlsson window for salaries of $3 million/$3.5 million/$3.5 million for three years. That was basically $3 million under market value for that type of player. They lost on the talent side but they got a player that fit their needs. It worked in the first year when the Sens made it to the conference finals. Unfortunately, Brassard (and the team) fell apart after that.

To me, Ottawa is trying to compete with a limited budget and so there are always going to be compromises. They have to make deals a "normal" team wouldn't have to. A team without money is always going to value certain players more than others, simply because they are affordable.

I'll always defend that move because it was an attempt to win, within budget limitations. It's the type of deal the team will probably have to make again in the future.

Best post I've seen here in a month

 

[JD1]

As a general rule Dorion has been more-or-less fine with it comes to the smaller deals, but he's badly screwed up pretty much every major trade he's made.

The Erik Karlsson trade called to say "Hi, how ya doing Hale?"

 

[DaveMatthew]

In my opinion, the Zibanejad trade was the worst.

I get that there were some commitment issues, but when you have a 6th overall pick that you've invested those resources into, you 100% have to give him more time to figure it out. And it's not like Z was chump, he scored 51 points in his D+3 season.

We traded a 6th overall pick when he was 22 years old because he had some question marks.

Logan Brown has just as many question marks, if not more, and I don't think anyone would advocate trading him right now. Why? Because he's only 22. And if he scored 50 points in the NHL next year, everyone would be thrilled, not disappointed.

22 year old, big centers, need time. We didn't give Zibanejad nearly enough.

 

[coladin]

Stone trade. I like Brannstrom, but Stone , even on this team this year, would have the team maybe 6 points out. He was supposed to lead this team and be a Senator for life. Still hurts, and it isn't so much a knock on Brannstrom, but Dorion should have identified his qualities much sooner and not put the organization into that one year deal

 

[Micklebot]

To be truly fair

If you don't see something coming, but only see it after the fact, its hindsight

If you do see it coming, its foresight

What one man sees in hindsight another sees in foresight

Right, I should have said it looked bad to many, not all. I don't recall anyone looking at that trade at the time and thinking we'd for sure be getting a top 10 pick and Norris would blossom into what he has, but I'm sure somebody out there did given even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I think most that saw that deal as fair or good saw it that way because they had a more pessimistic view of Karlsson's value (which also has come true, at least for now) rather than an optimistic view of the return. My point though was that no matter how you viewed the trade at the time with the exception of what I assume is the minority who both saw Karlsson as steeply declining and saw future greatness in Norris and a top 10 pick, you've probably seen your perception of the trade improve significantly since the day it happened.

 

[SpezDispenser]

Hoffman, zibanejad (although I liked it at the time), burrows.

Duchene was the right move, who the f*** knew we would flame out like that.

 

[Micklebot]

Stone trade. I like Brannstrom, but Stone , even on this team this year, would have the team maybe 6 points out. He was supposed to lead this team and be a Senator for life. Still hurts, and it isn't so much a knock on Brannstrom, but Dorion should have identified his qualities much sooner and not put the organization into that one year deal

Yeah, I'd say less the Stone trade, and more the Stone 1yr extension (assuming there was a number that Stone would have gone long term for at that time).

Losing Stone imo is huge, but I have a hard time saying that trade was an all time worst knowing that Stone wasn't going to extend short of a massive overpayment I suppose. Back in the summer of 2018 though, maybe an 8x8 deal would have been enough to lock him in.

 

[Icelevel]

Zibanejad, Hoffman, Stone

 

[GCK]

How are you forgetting the Hoffman trade? That's easily #1 and its not even close.

I started reading some replies and everybody says Hoffman. The reasons I didn’t include Hoffman is that he was tainted and even Wilson got way below value moving him to Florida as well, even though it was better than we received.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Not interested in having them justifed or explained away anymore, but my list would have to include the following. I realize there are some justification for context, but its fair to say I still wouldn't have made these choices and gone other routes. These are ones I disliked the moment they happened, more so than using hindsight.

Hoffman trade
Anderson, Condon, Burrows & Smith re-signings
Zibanejad trade
1st Duchene trade
Taking on Zaitsev's contract
Stone handling
Keeping Ceci as an obviously inept option for so long

 

[stempniaksen]

I started reading some replies and everybody says Hoffman. The reasons I didn’t include Hoffman is that he was tainted and even Wilson got way below value moving him to Florida as well, even though it was better than we received.

That's exactly why it's the easiest deal to point and laugh at though.

Most of the time there could be an argumen made that the team got the "best deal" (I don't agree with this line of thinking, but moving on) while it was immediately clear that Dorion took the wrong deal in this case.

 

[Micklebot]

I started reading some replies and everybody says Hoffman. The reasons I didn’t include Hoffman is that he was tainted and even Wilson got way below value moving him to Florida as well, even though it was better than we received.

I suppose, but if we traded a 2nd, 4th and 5th for Boedker that would probably be up there on my list of bad trades...

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Talking to the media

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I suppose, but if we traded a 2nd, 4th and 5th for Boedker that would probably be up there on my list of bad trades...

Identifying Boedker as being anything but a cap dump was obviously a bad assessment.

Talking to the media

Probably the biggest of all. Him and Nick R. did some serious damage.

 

[Liver King]

Zibanejad Hoffman Stone Duchene

Burrows Condon Anderson Smith contracts

 

[Xspyrit]

In your opinion what are Dorion’s 3 worst moves. Try to separate Melnyk from Dorion and also stick to hockey decisions rather than Dorions issues with public speaking and nervous statements.

1. Alex Burrows

I hated the trade even without the extension. Burrows was a biting, slur saying weasel and I threw up in my mouth when he became a Sen. The extension was so obviously horrible at the time that no excuse can be made. I didn’t even care about the return I just hated this move so much so that I called TSN1200 and let loose to Ian.

2. Condon re-signing

Simply put too much teem, too much money, and too early. This was really dumb and might be #1 if not for my disgust of Burrows.

3. Colin White signing

This one hurts to say because I believe White will be a good player. My issue is that White had no arb rights and was offer sheet exempt. I like the idea of locking him up but this seemed rushed and feels like it was done for show to Chabot and fans rather than a well thought out position.

Honourable mention - Stone handling summer 2018 (hindsight for me).

I didn't really want to engage in an ad nausea thread but these 3 choices are kinda weird to me, kinda marginal to be honest when it should be :

1- Zibanejad : was the highest Sens Draft pick since 1996, he was very raw when drafted and took time to fully develop but he should have been part of our core for a long time. The idea of getting Brassard was good (60 pts center, huge playoff performer) but if it was at the price of sacrificing Zibanejad, then no. Would have preferred a package like 2017 first, another pick and a prospect like Chlapik. It should have been enough, no? Imagine having Brassard AND Zibanejad for that playoffs run. And then when you acquire Duchene you have :

Hoffman-Duchene-Dzingel
Ryan-Zibanejad-Stone
Smith-Pageau-Brassard

At least, Dorion partially redeemed this trade by selling Brassard to Pittsburgh. JBD, Tychonick, Columbus 2020 3rd and Gustavsson could pay good/great dividends

2- Hoffman : Yes the situation with Karlsson and Hoffman's reputation probably hurt his value a lot but there will be nothing to show for it outside of a few good months out of Boedker at the beginning. It's basically like if we let a 29 y/o top-6 forward go as a UFA

3- Duchene : the idea of upgrading Turris (who was going on his last year before UFA) to Duchene was great, but sometimes things don't go well and you crash down (exactly like San Jose this year). So if you're going all in (by trading a future 1st round pick) you have to give yourself the best chance possible to succeed and don't let holes in your line-up with poor coaching/goaltending. Of course, Melnyk has a large part of blame in all of this and a limited budget makes it very hard to compete in the NHL. Result :

Turris + Bowers + 3rd for Abramov + Davidsson (+ Duchene as a "2 year rental" but we missed the playoffs twice)
worsening a 4th OA to 19th OA

Farther down the list :

Burrows : "only cost" Dahlen who in hindsight might not be the great prospect we thought, so basically acquired Burrows for free. Yes the extension didn't turn out great but Burrows wasn't coming to Ottawa without it. My opinion is Dorion should have explored a cheaper/simpler avenue but you're clearly biased about Burrows (a guy I played against long time ago), you dislike him but ask Canucks fans if they do. Yes he was that type of player, like a Chris Neil or a Brad Marchand, that everybody else outside your own fans absolutely hate. Again, not a big consequential move since it might only have cost a bit of money in the end.

Condon re-signing : yeah didn't like that move from the 2nd it was made. I was a bit alone at the beginning but with time more people started to realize. But that being said, it shouldn't be anywhere near a crippling deal for a NHL team, just a bit of money and a contract spot wasted. In Montreal for example, they just send players to the AHL even with NHL salaries. It was only an issue because Ottawa is damn poor.

White extension : It doesn't look great this year but just have to think about how much of a bargain he was last year at $925,000. And you know, while 4.75 M$ is a lot of money, for a NHL salary going forward (and not 10 years ago), it's not that much. It's actually closer and closer to the NHL average salary every year. So basically, all White will have to do in the future is to play at a good/great 3rd line level. Just need to be a strong 2-way 0.5 PPG player. Do you believe he can rebound to that level?