Post-Game Talk: Don't wanna let us wearing our Red Home Jersey? No Problem Mr Dundon... (Canes 4-6 Habs)

[CauZuki]

And hopefully we drafted a top player in KK, and traded for 3 in Domi/Suzuki/Drouin. All were top 15 picks in their own right. Ratenen was drafted 10 OVA. Suzuki and Domi 13 and 12th respectivly not to far off from Ratenen.

I was all for tanking at the begining of the season, but with the players over achieving I would prefer to reward them. Domi may never be this good again I would rather see what he can do in the playoffs then some nebulas future where everyone becomes great at the same magical time.

But the question when is good enough? We got the top 3 last year so it wasn't enough, if we got the 2nd next year is it ok to start to win or we need another 3 top draft picks? Who will turn the light switch so the habs go from a perenial loser to winning a cup. Very few teams go from finishing last to winning a cup the next year so at some point the team is going to have to finish outside the top 5 but not win a cup the same year.

When we actually see those players dominating their peers and leading the NHL.
Look at the top 20/30 players point producing players as of today , why are there are no Habs?
Why do we rarely ever have a player that other teams drool over?
The type of players currently dominating the NHL as young players.
The type of players that have been elite over the last decade in terms of point production , zero Habs.

Obviously we are doing something wrong or are we suggesting that we are cursed or unlucky?
Our current trajectory is to eventually be a team that can sneak into the playoffs and maybe win a round or two if we get lucky , does that sound like a strong strategy to you?

Hopefully Kotkaniemi ends up being a 90 point C and Domi/Drouin become perennial PPG players over the next couple of years. Those are the things that need to happen for the current Habs to actually win something in this league. They also have to do in the playoffs which is a whole other ball game (but that's a different discussion).

 

[Runner77]

Because Bergervin trying to save his job and he calls the shots

Obvious this team aint near ready to contend

Meantime in the batcave ...

 

[Lshap]

toronto was mired in the basement for DECADES and it was still a liscence to print money.

teams fortunes go up, they go down. the one way to ensure that you get to ride it out is to NOT go boom to bust and hope that the boom comes first.

and the oilers sucked for a really long time and its added up to nothing ? so what ?

the notion that tanking and sucking for years is gonna land you a white knight who will solve all of your problems and lead you one day ( someday???) to the promised land is a tale best left to children's books. There are so many variables ( weak draft year, bad luck in the draft lotterey, current composition of the team, injuries) that a team cannot control, to focus on the 1st and think that it will a salve for all systemic problems is idiotic.

as a fan, yeah it would be great if we had an owner who would throw money hand over fist to win at any cost. But the owner of the team is the owner first.

financially montreal will be fine for the discernable future. if you want to risk that by buying hope and potentials then buy some lottery tickets with your own scratch.

We might be misunderstanding each other. I never advocated tanking or sucking. I've said multiple times how happy I am with this surprisingly good team. I have no wish to see Domi, Tatar and Drouin stop playing well, in the hopes of a lucky draft number. But if we want success, there will be risk. Thus far, no market has abandoned its team for taking calculated risks to pursue a Cup.

All I've been saying is pick a timeline and aim for it. If Kotkaniemi and Suzuki look to enter their primes in, say, two years, then build the strongest roster you can for that future date. Who will be better by then? Who will be declining? If we can acquire a great prospect for Petry, Byron, Weber, etc., then in two years that prospect will likely have a bigger impact than the two-years-older vet we traded away. Every recent Cup winner has a strong homegrown core of stars. Habs haven't had that in years. The approach of buying UFAs and trading for quick-fixes has left us nowhere. The team can remain fun and competitive while trading up for better picks or prospects.

 

[admiralcadillac]

Not at all , it's much easier to acquire complimentary players than it is to acquire young players that are clearly a level above their peers.
Habs are building the team backwards and hoping they get lucky , while being a playoff bubble team. I don't find this produces a good product as our playoff chances are far from a guarantee.
It's easy to get excited about the current Habs team because last year was an absolute disaster , everything that could go wrong did and was in fact the worst season since the introduction of the 82 game schedule. I find it very hard to be excited for the future when we don't ever get a real chance at multiple quality top 3 picks. There are no guarantees in any of these scenarios but there is no denying that our current strategy has worked 0 times since the lockout.

Toronto got lucky but in the end they were toiling in mediocrity for years because the franchise didn't want to tank , they kept acquiring expensive plugs that never lead them anywhere.
Tanking + luck + strong personnel is what makes a team a contender , there are no examples of the contrary scenario , how can anyone put their faith in something that hasn't happened in the modern NHL?

You mean cup winners have good teams?

We might be misunderstanding each other. I never advocated tanking or sucking. I've said multiple times how happy I am with this surprisingly good team. I have no wish to see Domi, Tatar and Drouin stop playing well, in the hopes of a lucky draft number. But if we want success, there will be risk. Thus far, no market has abandoned its team for taking calculated risks to pursue a Cup.

All I've been saying is pick a timeline and aim for it. If Kotkaniemi and Suzuki look to enter their primes in, say, two years, then build the strongest roster you can for that future date. Who will be better by then? Who will be declining? If we can acquire a great prospect for Petry, Byron, Weber, etc., then in two years that prospect will likely have a bigger impact than the two-years-older vet we traded away. Every recent Cup winner has a strong homegrown core of stars. Habs haven't had that in years. The approach of buying UFAs and trading for quick-fixes has left us nowhere. The team can remain fun and competitive while trading up for better picks or prospects.

You guys put too much faith in young prospects unfortunately if you think we'll find a guy for Weber that will have a bigger impact than him in two years.

If that was the case no team would trade anything for Weber. Think about it.

 

[CauZuki]

You mean cup winners have good teams?

The talent isn't spread the way it is with other teams that don't win the cup. They have certain individuals that are clearly above their peers and it's been the method that everyone has used to win a cup since the lockout. It's also the method being used by all the current top teams in the NHL.

Let me present the current top teams in the NHL (standings as of today):

Tampa (young elite nucleus leading the league)
Toronto (young elite nucleus leading the league)
Nashville (elite D factory + Forsberg/Johansen)
Winnipeg (young elite nucleus leading the league)
Calgary (young elite nucleus leading the league)
Buffalo (young elite nucleus leading the league)
Washington (generational player + superstar player + young up and coming star)
Colorado (young elite nucleus leading the league)
San Jose (2 Norris winning D)

Where do the Habs fit into this group moving forward? Do you think our current prospects match up well with where the league is going? I think they are very solid but no where close to what is required to being a top team, let alone winning the Cup...I didn't even mention other teams that are starting to pile up stud talent like Vancouver. There are no guarantees with any strategy but picking the one that has never worked in the current era and doesn't trend well with the new young teams seems like a bad idea?

 

[Runner77]

I'd be interested in hearing the reasoning of posters who think that finishing 20th and out of the playoffs somehow guarantees a better long-term outcome than finishing 10th and loosing in the first or second round.

The finishing 10th fans will probably argue:

• Playoff experience needs to be acquired
• Anything can happen in the playoffs
• Lottery system, getting top pick not a certainty
• It's Montreal, you can't miss the playoffs
• Ownership will push for playoff revenue, since it's net in their pockets (no player salaries to pay in the post season)
• Going into playoffs shows that team is in win mode now, will be easier to attract UFAs in the summer and use massive cap space available

The finishing 20th fans will probably argue:

• Better percentages in draft lottery
• Still too many holes to fill, so increased chance of being able to draft an NHL-ready high upside player
• We're 2-3 years away from contention, provided we keep amassing early draft picks and as many of them as possible
• We have players who won't be as effective 2-3 years from now, who we should look to sell now so we can reload
• High quality prospects in next year's draft, can't afford to draft late
• Low organizational prospect depth, need more quality assets -- best way to land them is at the draft

 

[scrubadam]

When we actually see those players dominating their peers and leading the NHL.
Look at the top 20/30 players point producing players as of today , why are there are no Habs?
Why don't we rarely ever have a player that other teams drool over.
The type of players currently dominating the NHL as young players.
The type of players that have been elite over the last decade in terms of point production , zero Habs.

Obviously we are doing something wrong or are we suggesting that we are cursed or unlucky?
Our current trajectory is to eventually be a team that can sneak into the playoffs and maybe win a round or two if we get lucky , does that sound like a strong strategy to you?

Hopefully Kotkaniemi ends up being a 90 point C and Domi/Drouin become perennial PPG players over the next couple of years. Those are the things that need to happen for the current Habs to actually win something in this league. They also have to do in the playoffs which is a whole other ball game (but that's a different discussion).

The only way to see is to build on what we have. Keep in mind Drouin/Domi/KK/Suzuki are still young they aren't at the tail end of their careers.

I was all for tanking before the season started, I even thought that Byron and Petry would be traded (before Byron signed his contract). But that went out the window once the team became competitive. The team has built up enough points now that catching the bottom 5 is probably out the window. Even if we traded pieces I don't think we can lose enough. Team played without its 1D for the first like 20 games and was still in a playoff spot.

So the train is moving and unfortunatly we can't get off of it. Maybe next year we pull a Jersey and find ourselves at the bottom of the league.

Let me ask you if lets say we trade Petry, Weber, and Tatar and manage to get the 2nd overall pick are we good at that point or do we need to get more elite talent? Can we only stop losing once one of the players we drafted becomes a top 30 player? Lets say we get Hughes but he turns out to be a RNH how does that work into your plan? Back to back top 3 picks but KK and Hughes turn out to be 2nd liners we keep losing? When have we stop piled enough top picks to finally turn things around.

Honest truth is that MB screwed up should of kept AG and Max and we would probably be bottom 5 right now. Instead he went and made 2 good trades and the team is better than they should of been. If you really want to tank we need to trade Domi/BG/Drouin but then we don't have anymore young talent...

 

[CauZuki]

I'm not buying any of the tanking talk. By next season, we have an actual pair of top6 C's (Kotka, Domi), youth, depth and adding just Suzuki to our current group changes alot of things (including the PP). Bergevin basically has to acquire a LD (which he can do given our assets) and hope to also get a top6 RW to play with Domi. We have a lot of capspace too. We're not drowning in bad contracts, our team isn't over the hill, it doesn't lack talent (it needs to get more from our pipeline - which has it). We're in a unique position where being in the bubble spot is not a sign that we're spinning our wheels and so on. It's a competitive league, and right now we're competing which is fantastic for the development and culture of this team.

Since when is having Price signed for 10.5M until he is 39 , Weber signed until he is 40 , Alzner signed for another 3.5 years , no bad contracts?

Also we don't have any proven star talent , which is the basic requirement for a cup over the last 10 years. Yeah it's easy not to buy the tanking method , when you expect a method that comes with some form of guarantee. There are no guarantees in any of the scenarios presented but acting like the way we are building the team is the way to go is simply false. It doesn't match up with how the new top teams in the NHL have built their teams. Sometimes being different is a good thing , in this case it's what guarantees perennial mediocrity.

The current team is way better and more promising than last years team , but going from the bottom to the middle isn't going to sway me. Especially when I know the type of pieces we are missing , teams rarely acquire through trading. Bergevin did a good job this summer , but let's not act like we aren't cursed to repeat the same cycle of 2012.

 

[scrubadam]

Meantime in the batcave ...

And LA or Chicago will draft Hughes and next year they will be cinderalla back in the playoffs and cup contenders because along with Hughes they will still have most of the talent that won them cups.

When you are losing the narrative is you should tank, but if you start winning then you did it right. NJD is a perfect example, wonder how many pundits were calling for them to lose for Hughes this year after Hall winning the Hart and making the playoffs last year. Or same with Colorado who surprised last season and are better this year with Ratanen tearing it up.

Chicago/LA are not going to tank and lose for 3/4 years in a row while their elite talent wastes away. They will do what good teams should do, tank for 1 year or 2 out of 3 and them get better each year.

 

[Runner77]

And LA or Chicago will draft Hughes and next year they will be cinderalla back in the playoffs and cup contenders because along with Hughes they will still have most of the talent that won them cups.

When you are losing the narrative is you should tank, but if you start winning then you did it right. NJD is a perfect example, wonder how many pundits were calling for them to lose for Hughes this year after Hall winning the Hart and making the playoffs last year. Or same with Colorado who surprised last season and are better this year with Ratanen tearing it up.

Chicago/LA are not going to tank and lose for 3/4 years in a row while their elite talent wastes away. They will do what good teams should do, tank for 1 year or 2 out of 3 and them get better each year.

I won't discuss that word that starts with a t and ends with a k, cause it's not what I'm advocating.

You have to choose a path and stick to it. That's how most businesses and hockey teams are built. The Habs looked to be on a reset/ rebuild path. Stick to it otherwise risk doing what was done in past years by overpaying for patchwork, is all. And then be back in the same spot next year.

 

[CauZuki]

The finishing 10th fans will probably argue:

• Playoff experience needs to be acquired
• Anything can happen in the playoffs
• Lottery system, getting top pick not a certainty
• It's Montreal, you can't miss the playoffs
• Ownership will push for playoff revenue, since it's net in their pockets (no player salaries to pay in the post season)
• Going into playoffs shows that team is in win mode now, will be easier to attract UFAs in the summer and use massive cap space available

The finishing 20th fans will probably argue:

• Better percentages in draft lottery
• Still too many holes to fill, so increased chance of being able to draft an NHL-ready high upside player
• We're 2-3 years away from contention, provided we keep amassing early draft picks and as many of them as possible
• We have players who won't be as effective 2-3 years from now, who we should look to sell now so we can reload
• High quality prospects in next year's draft, can't afford to draft late
• Low organizational prospect depth, need more quality assets -- best way to land them is at the draft

The issue is not where we finish but the vision we have when rebuilding the team. It's nearly impossible to make the playoffs every year and acquire the pieces we are missing to contend. This has been proven by stats , anecdotal evidence and every other metric we have. No team in the current NHL era has won the cup without 1-2 elite pieces that were acquired in the lottery draft. Everybody thinks they are the exception to the rule , there is a reason they call it probability , anything can happen but that doesn't mean the scenarios presented are equal choices when we know they clearly aren't.

It's simple , lets look at all the top point producing players under 24 and compare each teams top players to our players and prospects. It's not even close in terms of offensive production and game breaking talent. The counter argument is always that some lottery teams still end up being bad and never see success , that is true but it's still a better strategy than the strategy that has literally never worked over the last 10+ years.

Any team can be relatively competitive due to parity but the hard part is being bad and lucky enough to get that elite talent that sets your team apart. That combined with a solid coaching staff and a GM to acquire the complimentary pieces to succeed (with a vision that makes sense and that he follows through on). Obviously it's a multi-factor solution but it always starts with 1-2 young elite talents that are top of the league year after year.

 

[dinodebino]

How in the world is Petry wasted? He will be too old? He will be Weber's age when his contract ends!



When exactly he actually did this?

Actually, it started in 2014. He traded his second round picks for three consecutive seasons. No?

 

[cphabs]

2 primary assists, solid game overall as per usual.

I swear, does somebody somewhere have a highlight reel of Danault whiffing beauty passes from Gallagher and Tatar? It's not his job on that line to finish. Gallagher and Tatar are scoring plenty.

Oh, I get it! He’s like Adam Oats, a 1st line playmaking center. That explains it. Thanks!

 

[admiralcadillac]

I won't discuss that word that starts with a t and ends with a k, cause it's not what I'm advocating.

You have to choose a path and stick to it. That's how most businesses and hockey teams are built. The Habs looked to be on a reset/ rebuild path. Stick to it otherwise risk doing what was done in past years by overpaying for patchwork, is all. And then be back in the same spot next year.

How do you do that in this case?

The problem is that trading away the veterans on the team won't do it for us.

 

[scrubadam]

I won't discuss that word that starts with a t and ends with a k, cause it's not what I'm advocating.

You have to choose a path and stick to it. That's how most businesses and hockey teams are built. The Habs looked to be on a reset/ rebuild path. Stick to it otherwise risk doing what was done in past years by overpaying for patchwork, is all. And then be back in the same spot next year.

and at the same time if something unexpected happens sometimes you have to modify your plan/path.

Seems to me they are sticking to their retool plan/path. MB dumped some underperforming players and picked up some good youth and has his top 3 pick. I doubt MB will all of a sudden change and sell the farm this TDL. Guy didn't even want to sell the farm for ROR. He probably at most trades a 2nd and a Hudon but he isn't going to move Phoeling/KK/Brook and our next 5 1st at TDL.

 

[Simarino]

Since when is having Price signed for 10.5M until he is 39 , Weber signed until he is 40 , Alzner signed for another 3.5 years , no bad contracts?

Also we don't have any proven star talent , which is the basic requirement for a cup over the last 10 years. Yeah it's easy not to buy the tanking method , when you expect a method that comes with some form of guarantee. There are no guarantees in any of the scenarios presented but acting like the way we are building the team is the way to go is simply false. It doesn't match up with how the new top teams in the NHL have built their teams. Sometimes being different is a good thing , in this case it's what guarantees perennial mediocrity.

The current team is way better and more promising than last years team , but going from the bottom to the middle isn't going to sway me. Especially when I know the type of pieces we are missing , teams rarely acquire through trading. Bergevin did a good job this summer , but let's not act like we aren't cursed to repeat the same cycle of 2012.

In what universe Weber’s contract is a bad contract?? The guy is a solid no1 dman making 7.8M on the cap hit and when his game might be trending down hes gonna get paid 2-3M in actual money so budget team will happily take him

 

[CauZuki]

In what universe Weber’s contract is a bad contract?? The guy is a solid no1 dman making 7.8M on the cap hit and when his game might be trending down hes gonna get paid 2-3M in actual money so budget team will happily take him

Yeah solid D always carry an 8M caphit until they are 40+ , once he is older and retires what happens then how do we replace him? Essentially we are paying for what will most likely be his worst years and this after he earned it playing prime minutes on another team? Makes sense to me...I have nothing against Weber he is a good D , he provides great leadership (and role model for prospects) just the contract isn't a good one (and the trade obviously).

 

[cphabs]

That Russian kid on Carolina is something special.

 

[David Suzuki]

Define labor please.

I'm not going to get too into it because it's an inherently political question that isn't allowed on this forum anymore. But sharing profits among a small wealthy clique is the opposite of socialism. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[cphabs]

I'm not going to get too into it because it's an inherently political question that isn't allowed on this forum anymore. But sharing profits among a small wealthy clique is the opposite of socialism. I'll just leave it at that.

Ya, hope all is well brother!

 

[David Suzuki]

Ya, hope all is well brother!

Since I can't like posts anymore I'll just reply saying cheers lol

 

[cphabs]

Since I can't like posts anymore I'll just reply saying cheers lol

You can’t like posts?

 

[Kraken Jokes]

Oh, I get it! He’s like Adam Oats, a 1st line playmaking center. That explains it. Thanks!

No, you obviously don't get it.

 

[Runner77]

and at the same time if something unexpected happens sometimes you have to modify your plan/path.

Seems to me they are sticking to their retool plan/path. MB dumped some underperforming players and picked up some good youth and has his top 3 pick. I doubt MB will all of a sudden change and sell the farm this TDL. Guy didn't even want to sell the farm for ROR. He probably at most trades a 2nd and a Hudon but he isn't going to move Phoeling/KK/Brook and our next 5 1st at TDL.

Something unexpected? Like what? Making the playoffs extrapolating on their record to date?

Yes, he deviated from his "reset" plan. He went hard after ROR and Tavares -- he had no business doing that if he was truly committed to it.

Also, he kept saying how the team was going for it this year, even after he had found out that Weber's injury was worse than thought and that he was going to miss a significant part of the year.

We don't know what a lame duck GM who is coming off a miserable season and had his share of mishaps, is capable of doing. Won't be the first time he deviates from a slogan/plan based on a amassing a young core. We had to wait 6 years to see him actually draft in a manner consistent with the idea of "building through the draft".

The telling move will be whether he goes for a significant piece between now and the TDL and the price he'll cough up. Only then will we know if he's continuing with this summer's youth movement or whether he's going to veer off again into trying to make the playoffs as soon as this year.

 

[Runner77]

You can’t like posts?

I'll like your posts for the other guy. And for me, at the same time.