Don Cherry HHOF worthy as a builder? (Read mod notes #320, #323)

[scott clam]

I'll play Devil's Advocate here and say that Willie was a pure PC vote, which really is fine. He DID NOT pave the way for non-whites to play in the NHL. There was virtually no change in the colour of the game for decades after O'Ree.

I have no problem recognizing him in the Hall for symbolic reasons, but he's basically an answer to a trivia question. It would be great if more African-Canadians got in BECAUSE of O'Ree, but that has never been the case.

As far as Foster Hewitt goes, I think it's a "no-brainer" for him. Pioneers that actually built the game get in.

Well fine, if O'Ree didn't do it was only a matter of time before someone else did. Because unlike Jackie Robinson, he wasn't anything special as a player. But he's still the first.

Seeing as we live in a very PC era it's no surprise the hall of fame would vote in such a way. I have to admit I didn't even know who he was before he got inducted. But maybe more people should know about him.

And he has been active in his post-playing career in promoting junior hockey, so it's not like he's just some obscure one-off...

 

[DannyGallivan]

Well fine, if O'Ree didn't do it was only a matter of time before someone else did. Because unlike Jackie Robinson, he wasn't anything special as a player. But he's still the first.

Seeing as we live in a very PC era it's no surprise the hall of fame would vote in such a way. I have to admit I didn't even know who he was before he got inducted. But maybe more people should know about him.

And he has been active in his post-playing career in promoting junior hockey, so it's not like he's just some obscure one-off...

Personally, I like the guy, which may be the real reason why Cherry doesn't get in... he's way too polarizing.

 

[scott clam]

Personally, I like the guy.

Yeah, I think a lot of people like him. No doubt that helped his case.

 

[seventieslord]

I think if a person is inducted in a "builder's" category that they should have made a major contribution to a franchise or that they should have boosted the game's profile in some meaningful way. Or they should have changed the game for the better.

Most of the "builders" in the the HOF are coaches and GMs of championships and dynasties. Don Cherry coached for six years and his teams didn't win anything.

The two most notable outliers are broadcasting pioneer Foster Hewitt, the guy who coined the phrase "He shoots he scores" and the first guy to ever call a television game. The other is Willie O'Ree, the player who broke the "colour barrier".

O'Ree is a recent inductee, and with all the emphasis on race these days, it's no mystery why he got in. Even though he played most of his career in the minors, being the first "racialized" player in the NHL is now considered significant enough to be enshrined as a builder in the NHL. After all he paved the way for hall of famer Grant Fuhr and future hall of famer Jerome Iginla.

Foster Hewitt, the lone media figure, was the protypical game caller and colour commentator. Widely revered as a genuine class act the Hall of Fame also has a trophy named after him.

Don Cherry on the other hand is very much the antithesis of these two. I used to think he deserved to get in because he was an "icon", but then the hangover wore off.

He may be an "icon", but he's an icon for people living in the past. A glorified bigot, clown and bully.

I listened to a very long multiple part podcast about Willie o'Ree and I can tell you that simply briefly making the NHL while being black is not why he is in the Hall of Fame as a builder right now. He's had a very long life since the 1950s, during which he's contributed greatly to grassroots hockey at a local level. He deserves to be called a builder of the game for sure.

 

[Barnum]

1	Tommy Douglas	NDP leader, "founder" of Canadian healthcare system 1986
2	Terry Fox	Cancer activist who died during an attempted cross-country marathon	1981
3	Pierre Trudeau	Liberal Prime Minister of the 70's and 80's	2000
4	Dr. Frederick Banting	inventor of Insulin	1941
5	David Suzuki	CBC nature show host, environmentalist
6	Lester Pearson	Prime Minister, "founder" of modern peacekeeping	1972
7	Don Cherry	CBC hockey commentator
8	Sir John A. MacDonald	Canada's first Prime Minister	1891
9	Alexander Graham Bell	purported inventor of the telephone	1922
10	Wayne Gretzky	hockey player

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Which means what, man? It was a non-scientific poll done over the early interwebzzzz. It also limited a chunk of Canadians that were never polled.

Over history we have learned, popularity does not equate quality.

 

[scott clam]

I listen to a very long multiple parts podcast about Willie o'Ree and I can tell you that simply briefly making the NHL while being black is not why he is in the Hall of Fame as a builder right now. He's had a very long life since the 1950s, during which he's contributed greatly to grassroots hockey at a local level. He deserves to be called a builder of the game for sure.

Yea I shouldn't have left that out of my initial post.

But being the first black guy is what he's best known for. That's his "milestone moment".

But I defnitely don't have a problem with him being the hall

 

[seventieslord]

Yea I shouldn't have left that out of my initial post.

But being the first black guy is what he's best known for. That's his "milestone moment".

But I defnitely don't have a problem with him being the hall

Yeah, he could have just sat back the rest of his life, content being the answer to a very important trivia question, but he didn't. If he had, I'd call him a token induction myself.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I listened to a very long multiple part podcast about Willie o'Ree and I can tell you that simply briefly making the NHL while being black is not why he is in the Hall of Fame as a builder right now. He's had a very long life since the 1950s, during which he's contributed greatly to grassroots hockey at a local level. He deserves to be called a builder of the game for sure.

As has Cherry.

 

[seventieslord]

As has Cherry.

yep, but without being a.... well I better stop before I violate posts 320 and 323, but you get the picture.

 

[Big Phil]

I do agree with all of that. To me it’s just hard to stretch from there to the Hall of Fame.

Did he really coin the term “rock em sock em”? I always assumed it was an idiom, didn’t realize it was that recent.

I was thinking more in the hockey world. That term didn't exist until his movies. Of course the whole robot thing existed before, I was talking about within the sport of hockey.

No, Harry Sinden built a contender and gave everything Cherry needed to put a very good Boston team out on the ice. All Cherry had to do was put lines out and he failed in 1979 when the game was just about all over, he blew it. The Lunch Pail Gang mentality was already in Boston before Cherry got there, thx to the Flyers. He was gifted great teams and was unable to win a Cup.

Let’s talk about Cherry’s **** up. Huge **** up. You want to give him credit for not naming the player to the press or publicly? Lol all coaches do that, Donny’s not special in that category nor should he be applauded for it because there’s not a coach alive that does it. We know who the player (s) were and Donny admits he thinks Nifty heard him say “go out there”. It was Donny’s strategy and game plan to shadow Lafleur for the series. Donny sees Lafleur jump back out and he didn’t wait for Jonathan to come back. It’s that simple. Either way Donny was in charge of the bench, he ****ed up. There’s no defending that night and probable Cup. Instead, the Coach’s Clown put on a show with a few minutes left serenading the Montreal crowd with his stupid antics. Donny ate major crow. I remember my dad telling me that night after the OT, this is why you don’t gloat until the clock reads 0:00.

Stop trying to find little silver linings in Donny’s lacklustre coaching career. Fastest to 250....big whoop. As I said, after what Sinden gave him for a roster, anyone could have coached that team.

What do you mean "gave everything" to Cherry? The biggest knock on Sinden's GM career was that he was too cheap. Ask Ray Bourque why he left. The Bruins were often just a player or two from a Cup and Sinden's penny pinching cost them.

I have been on these boards for 16 years and never seen anyone so adamant - or even at all - that the Bruins should have beat the Habs in those years. Why didn't the Flyers, Sabres or Islanders ever give them a run for their money? Why was it just the Bruins? For starters, it is a testament to the Habs, not a knock on everyone else, that they were so dominant. The fact that it came down to an overtime in Game 7 is pretty darn good considering this was a dynasty. I think whether or not you like the guy you have to give the one behind the bench some credit, he did well in his time in Boston. The Broad Street Bullies got swept by the Habs, for comparison.

 

[Big Phil]

"In 2004, Cherry was voted by viewers as the seventh-greatest Canadian of all-time in the CBC miniseries The Greatest Canadian. In March 2010, his life was dramatized in a two-part CBC movie, Keep Your Head Up, Kid: The Don Cherry Story, based on a script written by his son, Timothy Cherry. In March 2012, CBC aired a sequel, The Wrath of Grapes: The Don Cherry Story II."

Seems to me some posters here have no idea how much of an Icon Don Cherry is in Canada.

Oh, they know. Heck, everyone knows the icon he is in Canada. No bartender ever turns up the sound to hear Ron MacLean talk, it is Don Cherry. This is just the natural way people act at times like this. Blame the internet I guess, we have incredibly short memories that supposedly don't go back as far as two weeks. You loved him or you loved to hate him. Reminds me of Bill Barber in an interview about the Broad Street Bullies. He said that even the teams that hated us he still thinks they loved them. I always thought Cherry was similar to that. Look at this thread, what, 400-500 posts and counting? People that didn't like him were still concerned with what he said, or interested at least.

We'll see how much more of a leash he gets with his new Grapevine show. But the guy is irreplaceable. If that isn't impact, well, I don't know what is.

 

[MXD]

He said that even the teams that hated us he still thinks they loved them. I always thought Cherry was similar to that. Look at this thread, what, 400-500 posts and counting? People that didn't like him were still concerned with what he said, or interested at least.

We'll see how much more of a leash he gets with his new Grapevine show. But the guy is irreplaceable. If that isn't impact, well, I don't know what is.

People that didn't like him and are posting in this thread are concerned with the Hockey Hall of Fame.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

People that didn't like him were still concerned with what he said, or interested at least.

It's possible to believe that Cherry does not belong in the HHOF as a builder without disliking him.

 

[Moose Head]

Yeah, I think a lot of people like him. No doubt that helped his case.

Hey, likeability is important in these things. For example Was Gerry Cheevers a better goalie than Tom Barasso?

 

[McGuillicuddy]

We'll see how much more of a leash he gets with his new Grapevine show. But the guy is irreplaceable.

Well the Grapevine podcast is him and his son, and produced (I think) by his grandson. So presumably he gets all the leash he wants!

FWIW I listed to the podcast and it was just okay. Tim Cherry is fairly bland as a co-host. Don needs a straight man to push back a little bit (like Brian Williams) to be at his best. Tim is just there to set up the stories for his father - which is okay, but not great.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Don needs a straight man to push back a little bit (like Brian Williams) to be at his best. Tim is just there to set up the stories for his father - which is okay, but not great.

Ron MacLean for the HHOF?

 

[The Roy Of Ottawa]

Will there be protests on the streets if he is inducted? Should it be a surprise induction on induction night

 

[scott clam]

People that didn't like him and are posting in this thread are concerned with the Hockey Hall of Fame.

I like him, even though I don't agree with him on a lot of things. But I don't think being a polarizing media figure should get him into the builder's category.

Because what did he do to "build" the game? Didn't he mostly just complain about rule changes? I mean he was the leading voice for the people who dragged their feet on fighting, but ultimately that camp lost in the end.

Hockey today is very different from Don Cherry's ideal/romanticized version of hockey.

 

[Big Phil]

People that didn't like him and are posting in this thread are concerned with the Hockey Hall of Fame.

It's possible to believe that Cherry does not belong in the HHOF as a builder without disliking him.

Sure that's true, but there are those going completely the opposite direction. The guy had a huge following and people all of the sudden act like he wasn't a Canadian cultural icon. If there is a post about the Kardashians I skip it, just like I do on TV. A lot of people followed him and watched him, if you didn't like him, you didn't have to, but people did. His overall resume is something that belongs in the HHOF in my mind. Too much impact to ignore.

Well the Grapevine podcast is him and his son, and produced (I think) by his grandson. So presumably he gets all the leash he wants!

FWIW I listed to the podcast and it was just okay. Tim Cherry is fairly bland as a co-host. Don needs a straight man to push back a little bit (like Brian Williams) to be at his best. Tim is just there to set up the stories for his father - which is okay, but not great.

I didn't hear it yet, I assume the first one is just his feet getting wet. So Tim is more or less like Ron, but I am guessing he would stick up for his dad a bit more. I agree, Williams and Cherry were excellent together.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Cherry is in Vancouver right now for the CHL draft prospects game and all the buzz is why he isn't in the HHOF as a builder.

Although I don't always agree with Cherry there is little doubt that he is a hockey (and Canadian icon) and should be in the HHOF.

Does he deserve to be in the Hall?

Reasons why or not as well.

will add PK Subban's parity of Cherry (because Subban is one of the greater ambassadors of the game today and the NHL has many of them IMO

This is a joke, right ?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

This is a joke, right ?

You're responding to a 3.5-year-old post. Consider that.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

You're responding to a 3.5-year-old post. Consider that.

The good old times when I was 66 !!!

 

[McGuillicuddy]

FWIW I listened to the latest Grapevine podcast and it's growing on me. What it is NOT is insightful commentary on the current NHL. That's not what Grapes brings to the table any more even if he does try a little. Rather, it is more like listening to an old soldier tell war stories, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Staniowski]

FWIW I listened to the latest Grapevine podcast and it's growing on me. What it is NOT is insightful commentary on the current NHL. That's not what Grapes brings to the table any more even if he does try a little. Rather, it is more like listening to an old soldier tell war stories, and there's nothing wrong with that.

It sounds like it's very much like his long-running Grapeline radio show (with Brian Williams)...except Grapeline was only a few minutes per episode.

 

[Big Phil]

Ron MacLean for the HHOF?

I sincerely hope not. But is he liked by the committee? Probably. The best comparison is to ask if Ward Cornell is in the HHOF and he isn't.

As has Cherry.

Correct. Excellent exposure to minor hockey. Always had an ear to the ground in the GTA area. Went to the games with his son Tim all the time. Profiled these teams on Coach's Corner.

Indirectly may have helped the popularity of the World Juniors in Canada. The 1987 Piestany Punch-Up is widely considered what peaked the interest of Canadians with this tournament and his back and forth debate with Brian Williams and then later his slaughtering of Michael Farber debating that same thing (why on earth did Farber think he could debate hockey?) got that tournament a lot of recognition.