Does size matter in hockey?

[tucker3434]

The league's most successful penalty killers are small, quick boys, and the days of a top 6/bottom 6 dichotomy are long gone

They aren’t typically small, maybe average.

And are they? How many guys under 5-10 are playing regularly in a bottom 6/bottom pairing role? It’s got to be near zero.

 

[The S5]

Any opinions on the two absolute heaviest and towards the tallest teams winning the last two Cups?

I suppose it could be a coincidence that it happened, but I see game 5 of last year’s series between Washington and Tampa starting the change in thinking. Tampa seemed to be coasting in the series and then Washington changed their game plan to being all out physical. It went from small dominating through skill and then turned on a dime to size dominating through physicality with skill.

Google some of the articles of Washington’s game plan change in game 5. I know this sent the NHL teams in a different direction on how to play these smallish skilled teams and it’s why you saw so many of them have early exits this year.

Did you hear Jon Cooper’s interview during the draft? He was very clear about needing to get way bigger up front.

There seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the direction the game has been going and winning in the playoffs. I think more intensity, heavier forecheck etc.. are givens come playoff time. Where I believe there is a disconnect is in the way the games are officiated in the playoffs, which don't resemble the regular season. It seems once the playoffs start, the officials look away from interference/obstruction which take on a whole new meaning in the playoffs. This gives the bigger teams an advantage. It also removes some skill from the games.
I, for one, would like the games called the way they are called in the regular season. It's clear that the NHL doesn't want to go back to the clutch/grab, borderline late hit type play, so they need to officiate the games to attain the desired result, otherwise, its just lip-service.

Also, regarding Cooper, the guy has to try to justify a reason for their playoff failure. Hedman is huge, but isn't necessarily a physical presence commensurate with his size. Maybe they just need to play heavier. I don't think smaller=softer.

 

[North Country]

There seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the direction the game has been going and winning in the playoffs. I think more intensity, heavier forecheck etc.. are givens come playoff time. Where I believe there is a disconnect is in the way the games are officiated in the playoffs, which don't resemble the regular season. It seems once the playoffs start, the officials look away from interference/obstruction which take on a whole new meaning in the playoffs. This gives the bigger teams an advantage. It also removes some skill from the games.
I, for one, would like the games called the way they are called in the regular season. It's clear that the NHL doesn't want to go back to the clutch/grab, borderline late hit type play, so they need to officiate the games to attain the desired result, otherwise, its just lip-service.

Glad you agree

Teams and players are naturally going to play 10 times as hard in the playoffs and naturally it’s going to be way more physical. Fans will turn the tv off if it’s governed down by constantly being slapped on the wrist for trying hard and being sent to the box. The fans don’t want to watch ringette.

 

[RandV]

It's really not that hard to understand, it just comes down to a combination of physics and the nature of the game.

In ice hockey you're strapping a pair of blades to your feet and gliding around on a sheet of ice, more mass generates more force, but it doesn't generate more speed, and using extreme examples it takes a lot less effort to move Gaudreau's 165 lbs around the ice than it does Chara's 250 lbs. But in contact hockey you inevitably have to take the puck to the net, or in the other zone box out other players from getting to the net, close quarters hockey that you can't just waterbug your way around.

So the vast majority of NHL players fall into that sweet spot around maybe 5'11-6'2 where you're not too big that you get diminishing returns on speed/quickness but not too little that you easily get knocked on your ass and can't fight through checks.

 

[kingsholygrail]

It's not just about strength, but reach. Bigger guys have longer reach. Longer reach means a wider range of coverage, shot angles, and play making possibilities. Obviously it's not a singular attribute as just being big isn't enough, but it's also obvious why it would be valuable.

 

[North Country]

It's really not that hard to understand, it just comes down to a combination of physics and the nature of the game.

In ice hockey you're strapping a pair of blades to your feet and gliding around on a sheet of ice, more mass generates more force, but it doesn't generate more speed, and using extreme examples it takes a lot less effort to move Gaudreau's 165 lbs around the ice than it does Chara's 250 lbs. But in contact hockey you inevitably have to take the puck to the net, or in the other zone box out other players from getting to the net, close quarters hockey that you can't just waterbug your way around.

So the vast majority of NHL players fall into that sweet spot around maybe 5'11-6'2 where you're not too big that you get diminishing returns on speed/quickness but not too little that you easily get knocked on your ass and can't fight through checks.

Put Lebron James (same time put in) in skates at 3 with his natural athletic talent and watch the **** out.

 

[The S5]

Glad you agree

Teams and players are naturally going to play 10 times as hard in the playoffs and naturally it’s going to be way more physical. Fans will turn the tv off if it’s governed down by constantly being slapped on the wrist for trying hard and being sent to the box. The fans don’t want to watch ringette.

Yes, but there is a difference between being physical and committing violations that are called in the regular season, buy overlooked in the playoffs. I don't think there is any debate that the refereeing in the playoffs doesn't even resemble the regular season.

 

[Field of Dreams]

It's a contact sport. Size obviously matters. However, there is a case to made that scouts undervalue undersized players.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

You can absolutely be too tall.

The taller you are, the harder it is to control and object along the ground. Anything over 6'7" is probably hurting more than it's helping.

It really impacts their skating. I know one of the trainers who worked with chara when he was traded to the senators. The guy was an atrocious skater.

But chara is a competitive freak, and busted his ass to improve it. If super tall guys dont have that drive, it's going to impact them negatively.

 

[pt_mck]

Size + Skill > small + skill

 

[djpatm]

Yes. Gaudreau is a good example, good in the regular season but in the playoffs with the big trucks coming to hit him he fizzles out because he's afraid to get hurt due to his small stature, and him being afraid to get hit hurts his offensive game.

So size does have it's impacts.

That's not Gaudreaus problem at all. He's never had an issue with people trying to hit him or even taking a hit. Show me one hit where Gaudreau actually gets injured. It hasn't happened. His problem in the playoffs is his linemates, Monahan, who is 6'3 205 lbs, and Lindholm, 6'1 195 lbs, play like soft players too.

A player like Gaudreau can be successful in the playoffs when he has linemates willing to set up shop in the dirty areas or fight for pucks in the corners because a small guy like him will always struggle in those spots. What Gaudreau can't do by himself in the playoffs when the whistle is put away is be a one man show (although he has done it in the playoffs before, even game 5 he just couldn't finish) because everyone just converges on him. During the regular season, they try to converge on him and shut him down by hacking and slashing him and take a penalty, in the NHL, for some reason we have two different sets of rules and those same slashes aren't called in the playoffs.

MSL had Richards and Lecavalier. If those two played like Monahan does, shying away from hits and the corners, than MSL never wins a cup or a hart.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Size + Skill > small + skill

Which is why prime lindross is probably the most dominant player the league has known since prime lemieux and Gretzky's

 

[Machinehead]

no.

Atleast not by "soft" non-gritty teams.

Categorically, yes. Look at the recent history. The 16, 17 Pens and 10, 13, 15 Hawks were tiny teams. The 2011 Bruins were bottom ten in height and weight. The Blues are a decently sized team but nothing to write home about. The only huge team to win the Cup recently is LA.

I can buy that nobody soft wins it, but "gritty" gets tossed around an awful lot. People talk about the Blues being such a heavy team and brining that LA Kings hockey back in vogue. Meanwhile, the Blues were 26th in hits this season. And that's moving the goalposts anyway. We're talking about size.

 

[CashMash]

It depends on the player... One tool among many. Unless it starts having a negative impact on your speed, size is good. Gives you reach and the ability to hit hard, as well as it being easier to maintain your balance.

 

[Name Nameless]

It's stupid to say it doesn't matter. A small guy needs to be more skilled than a big guy to be as effective.

Imagine you had two equally skilled goalies, but one was 5'7" and the other 6'7". They won't have equal stats.

Well, they have already been measured on the stats. So, if a smaller player has better stats, is the taller player better because he is taller?

I say that is (oboy. I have forgotten the word. But it is something about two variables not explaining twice as good, 'cause it turned out they were not independent. )

 

[SotasicA]

Well, they have already been measured on the stats. So, if a smaller player has better stats, is the taller player better because he is taller?

I say that is (oboy. I have forgotten the word. But it is something about two variables not explaining twice as good, 'cause it turned out they were not independent. )

Huh?

To get equal stats/performance, the smaller guy would have to be a lot more skilled.

Some say Johnny Gaudreau is proof that size doesn't matter. I say if Johnny Gaudreau was 6'4", he'd be generational.

 

[SotasicA]

Weight can be a bigger advantage than height. Overall mass is what makes a man difficult to move/stop. Mass is what can be used to stop/move another man. A heavier guy coming to impact with a lighter guy, the lighter guy moves. Doesn't matter if he's taller.

We're talking muscle mass here, btw. Flab will help with impact, but hurts mobility. Muscle helps with both.

But women like taller guys because taller guys have longer...

...fingers.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

all things being equal, take the bigger player

 

[Name Nameless]

all things being equal, take the bigger player

So if they have exactly the same stats, you take the bigger player. They will never have exactly the same stats.

But my point is, if a small player and a big player have the same stats, the bigger player is probably less talented- but he has used his size to get his stats up to the same standard as that smaller, but more talented player. Which is perfectly OK, don't get me wrong... But you have already used up that he is bigger now...

 

[Hunter368]

Depends who you’re asking, GM’s or Coaches or Hockey Wives.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

So if they have exactly the same stats, you take the bigger player. They will never have exactly the same stats.

But my point is, if a small player and a big player have the same stats, the bigger player is probably less talented- but he has used his size to get his stats up to the same standard as that smaller, but more talented player. Which is perfectly OK, don't get me wrong... But you have already used up that he is bigger now...

no....if the small player and big player skate the same, have the same hockey IQ, same shot and same hands...you take the guy that 6'3" and pass on the guy that is 5'10"

 

[North Country]

That's not Gaudreaus problem at all. He's never had an issue with people trying to hit him or even taking a hit. Show me one hit where Gaudreau actually gets injured. It hasn't happened. His problem in the playoffs is his linemates, Monahan, who is 6'3 205 lbs, and Lindholm, 6'1 195 lbs, play like soft players too.

A player like Gaudreau can be successful in the playoffs when he has linemates willing to set up shop in the dirty areas or fight for pucks in the corners because a small guy like him will always struggle in those spots. What Gaudreau can't do by himself in the playoffs when the whistle is put away is be a one man show (although he has done it in the playoffs before, even game 5 he just couldn't finish) because everyone just converges on him. During the regular season, they try to converge on him and shut him down by hacking and slashing him and take a penalty, in the NHL, for some reason we have two different sets of rules and those same slashes aren't called in the playoffs.

MSL had Richards and Lecavalier. If those two played like Monahan does, shying away from hits and the corners, than MSL never wins a cup or a hart.

Not sure on linemates but he looked very out of his element and didn’t like the increased physical play. He tried to crank it up the last game but it didn’t work.

 

[North Country]

Categorically, yes. Look at the recent history. The 16, 17 Pens and 10, 13, 15 Hawks were tiny teams. The 2011 Bruins were bottom ten in height and weight. The Blues are a decently sized team but nothing to write home about. The only huge team to win the Cup recently is LA.

I can buy that nobody soft wins it, but "gritty" gets tossed around an awful lot. People talk about the Blues being such a heavy team and brining that LA Kings hockey back in vogue. Meanwhile, the Blues were 26th in hits this season. And that's moving the goalposts anyway. We're talking about size.

The Blues and Capitals are at the top, very top, for weight and way up there for height.

The new trend officially started at the game 5 game plan change in the Washington and Tampa series.

 

[Machinehead]

The Blues and Capitals are at the top, very top, for weight and way up there for height.

The new trend officially started at the game 5 game plan change in the Washington and Tampa series.

And the trend will end when some small team wins another Cup. Trends don't last, that's why we call them trends.

 

[North Country]

And the trend will end when some small team wins another Cup. Trends don't last, that's why we call them trends.

Something can trend to a pinnacle and stick. It was very obvious in many playoff series this year and it will continue.