Does McDavid match Ovi's peak with another awards sweep?

[filinski77]

It is literally different. But it's still comparable. There were a couple years where Crosby missed 10-30 games and had insane paces. Like last season where he missed 10 games near the start and for most of the season some posters were trying to assert his ppg as a reason why McDavid shouldn't win the hart over Crosby. McDavid ended up with a slightly higher ppg so it didn't matter, but it was still a discussion being had.

Less of an assumption is still an assumption. There is no stat that is 100% predictive of future success or production. Would he have won the awards? Probably. But he didn't, so how is that season better than his 65g season where he won 4 awards? Imo it's not. That's the point Illpucks was trying to make and in order to do that you basically have to take credit away from the players who didn't get suspended and won the awards.

I see where you're coming from, and I'm definitely not trying to discredit the players who did indeed win, just adding context that for how dominant Ovi was for 3 straight years of leading the league in both Points and Goals per game.

2007/2008: Swept all the awards, destroyed the league in goals with a 13 goal lead over #2, lead in points

2008/2009: Lead league in goals, with a 10 goal lead over #2 whilst still missing 3 games in the season. Malkin beat him by 3 points in 3 more games. Safe to say if Ovi played those 3 games he more likely than not would have won the Ross, but either way was still the best point producer that year

2009/2010: Destroyed the league in Points per game (and led in goals per game). Crosby and Stammer had 1 goal more with 9 and 10 games respectively in hand on Ovi. Also safe to say he would have scored 1 single goal. And for points he was only 3 points back with 9/10 games less.

My whole point was that Ovechkin missing a few games due to non-injury items is a lot different than crosby missing 29/41/60 games. Ovechkin dominated the league in goals and points for 3 straight years. As mentioned earlier, I believe McDavid probably will go down as a greater hockey player than Ovi, but that peak is going to be hard to beat unless McDavid leads the league in goals for a couple years too (which he definitely could at some point, but who knows).

 

[North Cole]

I see where you're coming from, and I'm definitely not trying to discredit the players who did indeed win, just adding context that for how dominant Ovi was for 3 straight years of leading the league in both Points and Goals per game.

2007/2008: Swept all the awards, destroyed the league in goals with a 13 goal lead over #2, lead in points

2008/2009: Lead league in goals, with a 10 goal lead over #2 whilst still missing 3 games in the season. Malkin beat him by 3 points in 3 more games. Safe to say if Ovi played those 3 games he more likely than not would have won the Ross, but either way was still the best point producer that year

2009/2010: Destroyed the league in Points per game (and led in goals per game). Crosby and Stammer had 1 goal more with 9 and 10 games respectively in hand on Ovi. Also safe to say he would have scored 1 single goal. And for points he was only 3 points back with 9/10 games less.

My whole point was that Ovechkin missing a few games due to non-injury items is a lot different than crosby missing 29/41/60 games. Ovechkin dominated the league in goals and points for 3 straight years. As mentioned earlier, I believe McDavid probably will go down as a greater hockey player than Ovi, but that peak is going to be hard to beat unless McDavid leads the league in goals for a couple years too (which he definitely could at some point, but who knows).

I agree 100%, OV has had the best peak in the last 20 years without a doubt in my mind. He will go down as a slightly better play then Crosby in my mind, but unfortunately that's a minority opinion on this site.

I get where your coming from too, but I vouched a lot for McDavid winning the Hart over Crosby last year due to him playing the full season an being ahead in points, so it's hypocritical if I reverse that now. Though I believe he would have won the awards had he not been suspended. It's just gets too tricky/arbitrary IMO to allow ppg arguments based on missing 10-20 games vs 20-30, etc. It's more straught foeard in thos scenario, but there have been other close calls of players missing 10-15 games, even some this year in the hart and selke race. But that's just me, Idk...I fully admit I have some strange opinions about things.

Edit - I'm also not trying to take away from his peak and I get that he had a dominant year. I just can't call it better than the year he won four awards. The fact that he won so much hardware is one of the reasons I put him ahead of Crosby in the individual player sense. So by definition I would put more weight into those seasons.

 

[Bank Shot]

McDavid was not in the clear Hart position for most of the year as he was around 5th is scoring as his team struggled to stay in playoff position. He won the Ross and "Best Player" designation after his team was eliminated. This past season should be based only on his numbers rather than narrative that moves it above what the numbers say.

It is arguable that OV has two seasons of his three are clearly above McDavid's.

McDavid was clearly the best player when looking at both conventional stats and by advanced stats. Anything you look at, McDavid was just blowing his competition out of the water in creating scoring chances, tilting the ice, individual contribution.

You're the one pushing a narrative quoting things like the timing of his points.

 

[filinski77]

I agree 100%, OV has had the best peak in the last 20 years without a doubt in my mind. He will go down as a slightly better play then Crosby in my mind, but unfortunately that's a minority opinion on this site.

I get where your coming from too, but I vouched a lot for McDavid winning the Hart over Crosby last year due to him playing the full season an being ahead in points, so it's hypocritical if I reverse that now. Though I believe he would have won the awards had he not been suspended. It's just gets too tricky/arbitrary IMO to allow ppg arguments based on missing 10-20 games vs 20-30, etc. It's more straught foeard in thos scenario, but there have been other close calls of players missing 10-15 games, even some this year in the hart and selke race. But that's just me, Idk...I fully admit I have some strange opinions about things.

Edit - I'm also not trying to take away from his peak and I get that he had a dominant year. I just can't call it better than the year he won four awards. The fact that he won so much hardware is one of the reasons I put him ahead of Crosby in the individual player sense. So by definition I would put more weight into those seasons.

Yeah I see what you mean, It's not even about the hart/lindsay, because it's clear that Ovi was the best goalscorer and point producer in those 3 years.

As far as arguments with Crosby go (which I don't really want to get into right now), it's still comparing missing half a season+ due to injury vs. missing 3-10 games for outside reasons

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

If you can’t use that right form of then/than, then I refuse to have an educated argument with you.

Like I said, you can’t fault McDavid for the team his ownership surrounded him with. All you are saying is that the Oilers sucked and Capitals had a very good team. You aren’t speaking to the talent of either player.

I've come to the clear conclusion nobody on these forums want to have any type of debate when somebody questions the play of the player they are in love with.

Ovie has had a huge impact on the game, won a Cup, a CS, and numerous regular season awards. It's not even debatable that he will always be reguarded ad the better player then McDavid unless McDavid suddenly becomes a generational player, which he isn't.

I don't blame those who don't want to use cups as an argument, it doesn't fit agendas as it's a hard thing to get. The Oilers sucked last year, will probably suck this year, but why give the player whom the team is built around a pass?

Ovie never got a pass when he didn't win cups. Fair is fair. Unless you want to say McDavid isn't a winner which I clearly understand then. You blame the players. This is the NHL, these players are grown men.

It's silly trying to spin failure on this level. You either win or lose. I can't take McDavid seriously until he wins. I didn't take Sid seriously until he won his third cup. Cups matter more.

 

[eviohh26]

Negitory.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I've come to the clear conclusion nobody on these forums want to have any type of debate when somebody questions the play of the player they are in love with.

Ovie has had a huge impact on the game, won a Cup, a CS, and numerous regular season awards. It's not even debatable that he will always be reguarded ad the better player then McDavid unless McDavid suddenly becomes a generational player, which he isn't.

I don't blame those who don't want to use cups as an argument, it doesn't fit agendas as it's a hard thing to get. The Oilers sucked last year, will probably suck this year, but why give the player whom the team is built around a pass?

Ovie never got a pass when he didn't win cups. Fair is fair. Unless you want to say McDavid isn't a winner which I clearly understand then. You blame the players. This is the NHL, these players are grown men.

It's silly trying to spin failure on this level. You either win or lose. I can't take McDavid seriously until he wins. I didn't take Sid seriously until he won his third cup. Cups matter more.

 

[Tavares to Marner]

McDavid isn't close to Ovechkins peak play

 

[Tavares to Marner]

Ovechkin was also competiting with prime Crosby for his trophies, who's McDavid challenging?

Matthews? ....lol

 

[Bank Shot]

Ovechkin was also competiting with prime Crosby for his trophies, who's McDavid challenging?

Matthews? ....lol

McDavid is no Jamie Benn....that's for sure.

 

[Varan]

-Another Ovi thread created by lilpucks.

-To answer the question, Mcdavid actually has to do something, anything, in the playoffs to match Ovi. Mcdavid's first playoff appearance was horrific.

horrific is what your boy Crosby was against Boston in 2013. 0 points in a 4 game sweep. mcdavid simply didn't perform up to his standards

 

[authentic]

Nope.

I don't doubt at all that when it's all said and done, McDavid will go down as a greater player than Ovi, but Ovi's peak was so amazing, which is part of what bumps up his whole career.

Adjusting Ovi's 3 season Peak to 82 games: 112, 114, 124 points and 65, 58, 57 goals

Even if McDavid scores 115 points next year, unless he's at 55 goals + there is no way he'll compensate for Ovi's 65 goal run.

Why though? He's already a better two way player and far better playmaker, why would he need to come so close to his goal totals? The way I see it is a peak Ovechkin was marginally better than McDavid is now, and that's mostly because he has more to prove in the playoffs. In time I believe he will be better without much doubt.

 

[authentic]

It all depends. If Mcdavid scores 115 and no one else hits 90 points you might say that's a season that rivals any of Ovechkin's.

Why? Ovechkin only won one scoring title by 6 points.

 

[authentic]

I don't think awards in themselves should be used to determine the ability of a player. McDavid was the clear best player last year but lost the Hart due to missing the playoffs, just as Ovechkin was the clear best player in '10 but lost the Hart due to his suspension. As it stands, McDavid is a little better point producer relative to the league, but while I think a lot of Washington fans overvalued goals, the point differential is low enough to value Ovechkin being such a good goalscorer. Particularly his '08 total. He's also was an even better possession player than McDavid is, and which makes him pretty similarly effective at ES, while being a more dangerous PP weapon.

It will be interesting to see how next year goes, as McDavid could put up a huge year with similar ES success and a better PP. He would probably need to have a ridiculous year to make ground on Ovechkin though, and if he was going to have a better 3 year period, it seems more likely that it would start with the year that just happened and involve the next two being better

I think that's debatable, their level of linemates and competition both favoured Ovechkin, plus after these next two seasons play out we'll get a more accurate comparison.

 

[authentic]

I wonder how many points McDavid would have gotten if his team got 346 PP's, instead of the 210 his team got last year.

It's amazing how many people are unaware of this. I think McDavid would score even more points if he played then.

 

[ijuka]

If McDavid plays like he did to end last season he can actually win the rocket, which means that yes, he certainly can.

 

[daver]

In terms of simple offensive contribution, which for some reason has been moved down the ladder as a metric. McDavid would need another season like his last two to match OV. He would not have the best season of the two but he would make up for that with three Art R0sses.

 

[authentic]

Ovechkin. Something tells me it would be a lil bit different for mcdavid if he had 21-22 year old Crosby and malkin as direct competion. Hell a 31 year old malkin was giving him problems majority of the season and only finished 9 points back

McDavid played sick for almost a month by all accounts.

 

[daver]

It's amazing how many people are unaware of this. I think McDavid would score even more points if he played then.

Sure but not anymore relative to field. He has two solid Art Ross wins under his belt but has not shown yet he is on another level like the peak versions of Crosby, Malkin, OV, Kane or even Thornton.

He has plenty of chances to show that he is but until then, it is all BS speculation.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It's amazing how many people are unaware of this. I think McDavid would score even more points if he played then.

I don't particularly agree with that. I think McDavid's style of play is more conducive to the transition offense at 5 on 5 than the more stationary, methodical offense of the PP.

So while he'd get a few more points on the PP just by virtue of the number of opportunities, his even strength numbers might actually take a hit because there'd be less 5 on 5 time, which he excels at.

You have to factor that in. It's not just a case of taking his ES points today and adding PP points from 2005-08. Because more PP time means much less ES time.

 

[authentic]

Sure but not anymore relative to field. He has two solid Art Ross wins under his belt but has not shown yet he is on another level like the peak versions of Crosby, Malkin, OV, Kane or even Thornton.

He has plenty of chances to show that he is but until then, it is all BS speculation.

Sure, but not a lot of posters in these threads seem to care about that. I would say that by the eye test alone McDavid so far dominates hockey games on a level close to all those players, and more than Kane at his peak. He is one of the biggest game changers we have seen in the past few decades and at even strength may actually be the best.

 

[shtorm2005]

I don't watch McDavid play. Is he playing run and gun hockey ? If so, he sure will get a lot of individual awards without team success.

 

[authentic]

I don't particularly agree with that. I think McDavid's style of play is more conducive to the transition offense at 5 on 5 than the more stationary, methodical offense of the PP.

So while he'd get a few more points on the PP just by virtue of the number of opportunities, his even strength numbers might actually take a hit because there'd be less 5 on 5 time, which he excels at.

You have to factor that in. It's not just a case of taking his ES points today and adding PP points from 2005-08. Because more PP time means much less ES time.

I get that, but I still think he would score a bit more in the 2005-10 time frame.

 

[Bank Shot]

I don't particularly agree with that. I think McDavid's style of play is more conducive to the transition offense at 5 on 5 than the more stationary, methodical offense of the PP.

So while he'd get a few more points on the PP just by virtue of the number of opportunities, his even strength numbers might actually take a hit because there'd be less 5 on 5 time, which he excels at.

You have to factor that in. It's not just a case of taking his ES points today and adding PP points from 2005-08. Because more PP time means much less ES time.

That's ridiculous.

McDavid's career ES scoring rate- 3.06 p/60
PP-5.88 p/60

More PP time means way more points because he scores at double the rate on the PP even when you take into account he had a terrible down year on the PP last season.

McDavid's first two seasons he was 10th overall in the league in PP points/60 at 6.39.

McDavid is great on the PP, and god mode at ES.

 

[Bank Shot]

I don't watch McDavid play. Is he playing run and gun hockey ? If so, he sure will get a lot of individual awards without team success.

Last year he was on the ice for 85 goals for and 63 against at even strength.

He was top 20 in the entire NHL in even strength goals for vs goals against at +22 despite being on a team that missed the playoffs by 20 points.

Whatever type of hockey he's playing, he should probably do more of it.