Kamiccolo
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Sorry are you implying that HF elects members to the HHOF? Or even nominates them for awards?
Does Marleau need a cup to be a hof player
- Thread starter The Lucky Pucks
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Sorry are you implying that HF elects members to the HHOF? Or even nominates them for awards?
Walkingthroughforest
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I did. And it’s flawed. By your logic Kris Draper should be considered for the HHOF.
He was a passenger in the Olympics, and the Sharks line was especially terrible in the final two games of the 2010 games.
The WC doesn’t hold a lot of weight from NA, especially since many of those team canada’s had non-NHL players on them.
GP is an accomplishment. But numerous non-HHOF players have played a thousand-plus games.
Top 30 goals is an accomplishment but that isn’t an automatic HHOF ticket.
15+ 20 goal seasons is also an accomplishment but not even close to a HHOF ticket punch by itself
Iron man streaks are fun trivia but if that’s a factor in HHOF selection then I’d expect to see Jay Bouwmeester as well
The SJS records are not very relevant considering it’s a new franchise and there just isn’t the competition. Consider how close Thornton is to him in all major categories while playing almost 500 less games.
His playoff stats are impressive but they don’t elevate the rest of his career.
He was a good player, but you can’t expect a player who hit PPG twice in his career and had 1 40+ goal season to be a HHOFer. He didn’t win anything, he was a passenger on the Olympic teams, and was never the best player on his team past 2005.
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TomasHertlsRooster
Don’t say eye test when you mean points
No, I literally said that HF’s perception of him being a HOFer significantly changed after he joined Toronto but that probably wouldn’t translate to the people actually in charge of making decisions.
Leon Lucius Black
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He's been a 5o point player most of his career, just because he's stayed healthy his whole career doesn't mean he's HOF worthy.
StoneHands
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14 of his 21 seasons he's scored fewer than 60 points. I hate the idea of putting players in the Hall just because they played 20+ years especially when half of them were below the level of a decent first liner.
MyBudJT
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Because you asked, I compared how he stacked up to the players you mentioned above:
| Player | Games Played | Goals | Points | GWG | PO GP | PO Goals | PO Points | PO GWG |
| Marleau | 1633+ (2nd*) | 548 (3) | 1158 (3) | 106 (2) | 184 (2) | 72 (1) | 125 (2) | 16 (1) |
| St. Louis | 1134 (4th) | 391 (5) | 1033 (4) | 66 (4) | 107 (4) | 42 (4) | 90 (3) | 11 (T2) |
| Selanne | 1451 (3rd) | 684 (1) | 1457 (2) | 110 (1) | 130 (3) | 44 (3) | 88 (4) | 11 (T2) |
| Recchi | 1652 (1st*) | 577 (2) | 1533 (1) | 91 (3) | 189 (1) | 61 (2) | 147 (1) | 11 (T2) |
| Kariya | 989 (5th) | 402 (4) | 989 (5) | 53 (5) | 46 (5) | 16 (5) | 39 (5) | 2 (5) |
Marleau matches up nicely, and it doens't even take into account era adjusted points. Marleau played in the more difficult point producing era.
No, my logic does not mean Kris Draper should be considered for the HHOF.
Of the 16 points I made, how many of them does Draper meet or exeed?
Now you're really starting to grasp at straws...
Even if this were true, plenty of HHOFers have been 'passengers' in their careers for the Stanley Cup or for Olympic medals...
Yeah, but how many have played 1600+ games?
How many players that have met these criteria are not in the HHOF?
Its a factor, not a deciding factor...
How isn't it relevant? He'd be leading the Leafs in each of those records if he did it in Toronto...
Why not? Sounds pretty subjective to me... His playoff contributions are a big part of what makes his career so special.
Dude... you're starting to sound silly man... just making baseless excusses to try and deminish a HHOF worthy career.
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PattyLafontaine
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Interesting case. I’m somewhat surprised that no one has mentioned the Shark factor. No Shark inductees (of course Jumbo will be one).
Definition of a compiler. I’d be inclined to say no but if he gets the games record it’s going to be hard to say no especially with his playoff scoring and 500+ goals.
Definition of a compiler. I’d be inclined to say no but if he gets the games record it’s going to be hard to say no especially with his playoff scoring and 500+ goals.
Walkingthroughforest
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Here, lets make this easier and put this on a fair level by using numbers that we can actually compare
| Player | Games Played | GPG | PPG | GWGPG | PO GP | PO GPG | PO PPG | PO GWGPG |
| Marleau | 1633+ (2nd*) | 0.33 | 0.70 | 0.064 | 184 (2) | 0.39 | 0.67 | 0.086 |
| St. Louis | 1134 (4th) | 0.34 | 0.91 | 0.058 | 107 (4) | 0.39 | 0.84 | 0.102 |
| Selanne | 1451 (3rd) | 0.471 | 1.004 | 0.075 | 130 (3) | 0.33 | 0.67 | 0.084 |
| Recchi | 1652 (1st*) | 0.349 | 0.92 | 0.055 | 189 (1) | 0.32 | 0.77 | 0.05 |
| Kariya | 989 (5th) | .402 | 1.00 | 0.053 | 46 (5) | 0.34 | 0.84 | 0.04 |
His PPG is absolutely demolished by the rest of the players as well, and this is while playing with a prime Joe Thornton who had 6 PPG seasons, 2 90+ point seasons and 1 100+ point season.
His GWG's are at par with the rest of the group, but being clutch unfortunately doesn't translate into being elite.
His playoff goal scoring stats are impressive which has always been true, but again from a PPG perspective he doesn't come close. The only player he's on par with is Selanne, who was playing on one leg from 1999-2004 where he scored 11 points in 28 games.
1) Name one HHOF player in their prime who was considered a passenger for his Stanley Cup run, especially if they only won a single cup. I want to make clear that Marleau wasn't just a passenger for that tournament; Thornton and Heatley and Marleau were so bad in the final games of the Olympics they very nearly cost us games.
2) Doan, Brind'Amour, Wesley, Verbeek, and Richardson all played between 1400-1500 games and they are going nowhere near the hall
3) You can't just cherry pick stats. This is the same issue that came up with Ciccerelli and Andreychuk. Both of these players played forever and found themselves in the top 30 goals of all time. The Ciccerelli selection has been panned for years, and Andreychuk will more than likely see the same fate. But at least both of these players had 100 point seasons (well 99 for Dave) and 50+ goal seasons. The closest player on that list with a GPG close to Marleau (0.33) is Pat Verbeek with 522 goals and a GPG of 0.367. If you adjust the list for GPG Marleau is 203rd overall.
4) He didn't do it in Toronto though. It is an accomplishment and something remarkable, but he did it over 19 seasons while averaging only 59 points a season. During that same time Joe Thornton averaged 81 points a season while spending 6 less season in San Jose and Joe may still break the record before he retires. If you look at any NHL franchise leader whose numbers are similar to Marleau's (1082), they either did it far fewer games or are not HHOF players:
Blues: Federko scored 1073 points in 566 less games (HHOF)
Flames: Iginla scored 1095 points in 274 less games (Future HHOF)
Rangers: Gilbert scored 1021 points in 428 less games (HHOF)
Canucks: Henrik Sedin scored 1070 points in 163 less games (Future HHOF)
Devils: Elias scored 1025 points in 253 less games (No HHOF)
5) If playoff stats were given equal weight in the NHL as regular season stats then Claude Lemieux would have been a 1st ballot HHOF
I'm sorry, I fundamentally disagree with your argument.
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Kamiccolo
Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.
MyBudJT
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Why are we penalizing Marleau for playing more games? Just because Marleau played more games doesn't mean his accomplishments should be deminished.
Again, for the ??teenth time.... The HHOF inducts players based on their contributions to hockey. I'm not stating that Marleau is an equivalent point per game producer to the rest of these guys... However, his point procuing accomplishments throughout their careers are very comparable. It is very impressive that Marleau has been playing in the league for as long as he has been. He shouldn't be penalized for this duribility...
To me, its looking like you're looking for reasons to exclude Marleau from the HHOF. Truth is, most HHOF inductees have their worts... why are you beeing so nitpicky about Marleau's?
I never mentioned Marleau was an elite goal scorer. I simply stated where he sits on the all-time list. You're the one twisting the stats to come to these conclusions. If you look at each of these players careers, Marleau has scored 548 NHL goals. Only 28 other people in the world can say they've done that.
Why are you so obsessed with points per game or individual season point totals? It still doesn't deminish what Marleau has accomplished in the NHL...
Marleau has crushed three of those guys in GWGs.... only 6 other people in the world have ever exceeded Marleaus GWG totals...
Again, you're fascination with Points Per Game doesn't sit well with me. Marleau's durability is what makes his career so special, not his per-game pace...
Why are you being so restrictive on this? That sample size is extremly low... Also, there is a significant contingent of HHOF players that didn't even have many Stanley Cup runs... also cup runs are different than Olympic runs, they involve much more games against much weaker opponents...
I'll give you a HHOF player that played passenger on their only Stanley Cup Run: Dave Andreychuk
You didn't answer my question... how many players that have played 1600+ games are not in the HHOF...?
I'm not cherry picking anything, if anything, you are by trying and making everything per-game... Again, you're avoiding my question...
How many players are not in the HHOF that have [A] are top 30 in goals scored OR scored 15+ 20 goal seasons
Why is it seen as a bad thing that guys like Marleau and Andreychuk played a significant amount of games? That in itself is a very special accomplishment that very little have done. They should not be penalized for this.
You're twisting things here... fact is, Marleau leads that franchise in GP, Goals and Points... that in itself is notworthy, and a special accomplishment.
- Again, this is simply an additional point, on top of 12+ other things that make Marleau's hockey career so special.Its not my argument, its criteria laid out by the HHOF. The HHOF doesn't state that players need to be the best P/GP or most talented players to be inducted. It states that a player needs the following attributes:
If you look at Patrick Marleau's playing career, I really don't know how you can say he doesn't meet this criteria.
Playing Ability: Check (1600+ games, 500+ goals, 1150+ points)
Sportsmanship: Check (Very classy player, well liked across the NHL)
Character: Check (Captain)
Contributions: Check (Very decorated international career, lots of time played in the playoffs, one of the more clutch players in the NHL).
Walkingthroughforest
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Because durability doesn't equate to skill or value. Just because you can do something sufficient for a long period of time doesn't mean you're better than someone who can do the same thing phenomenally for a shorter period. Ten 50 point seasons aren't more valuable in the HHOF world than five 100 point seasons, even if they end up with the same amount of career points.
No one is punishing Marleau for "playing more games". It's that these "accomplishments" you're touting are skewed because the number of games distorts the underlying truth that the graph displays.
No one is taking away the fact that Marleau's longevity is impressive, but for you to say that his point producing accomplishments are equivalent is just dishonest when he needed 400+ more games than many of those players to get to those numbers.
And yes, almost all NHL HHOF players have their warts, but outside of a few exceptions they all have a resume that is relatively similar. Marleau does not, at all. No individual awards, 2 top ten finishes in 20 years, no cups, 3 PPG seasons, no 50 goal seasons, no 90 point season, no 100 point season, no cups, no First Team All Stars and no Second Team All Stars.
Just because he compiled for 400-500 extra games than most players doesn't put him on the level of the actual players of his generation who will be in the HHOF (Iginla, Thornton, Jagr, Crosby, Ovechkin, Sedins, Malkin, Forsberg, Keith, Karlsson etc.)
And it's a great accomplishment that needs to be viewed with proper context when that player has on average 200-300 more games played than most of his peers with similar statistics.
Because they're indicative of the level of play demonstrated by an offensive player. As someone who watched Marleau's career and had to watch my team battle him often, his point total correctly demonstrates his ability as a player. A fast, smart, hardworking player who was a 1a/1b centre who shouldn't be depended on to be the best player on his team, but when utilized properly was a very effective player.
The fact that he's been able to compile points and be an effective top six player for the past 5 years doesn't change what sort of player he was during his prime, how effective he was, or what his level of play was at.
And as I stated, being clutch doesn't make you elite.
I'm flabbergasted by this answer. The amount of points a top six player has (whose job is to score) is a direct correlation with how much an offensive player contributes to a game, and the larger your sample size, the more reliable your data is.
You just stated that many HHOF players have been passengers for cup winners. I asked you to prove it by showing me one player that was a passenger in their cup win during their prime. The Bourques and Selanne's of the world aren't relevant to this discussion because they were HHOF players with our without a cup.
Great, that answer shows you have no idea what you're talking about.
Marleau has 180 points less than the closest forward on that list, and the closest forward on that list is Dave Andreychuk. Again, just because you can play for a long time doesn't mean you're a HHOF player.
They're not being penalized, they're being referred to what they are: good players who were never great. The HHOF is for the best players of a generation, not the good players who stuck around forever and padded their stats. Here's the mission statement directly from the HHOF:
"HHFM works with members of the Canadian and international hockey community to ensure that those players, builders and officials who have made significant contributions and achievements in the game are honoured and memorialized through their election into Honoured Membership."
What exactly has Patty contributed? Has he won cups? Has he won awards? Has he been one of the marquee players of his generation? Has he even been the best player on his team, ever? The answer to every single on of these questions is no. He's a fan favourite and a great guy, but just because he stuck around for years and compiled stats doesn't mean he's made the significant contributions or achievements needed for a HOF player.
Also, to answer your question, everyone in the top 30 is in the HHOF. But I can tell you #37 isn't. So it's not an automatic entry. And yes, all players who had fifteen 20 goal seasons are in the HHOF, but at 14 seasons Peter Bondra didn't get in, at 13 seasons Rick Nash won't, Brian Bellows didn't, Vincent Lecavlier won't, and Bill Guerin won't.
These are not automatic bench marks and every player at 15 seasons is an indisputably superior player to Marleau.
I'm not twisting anything, I'm saying that the fact that Marleau owns that record because 1) the franchise is young 2) it took him much longer to get to that number than any of his peers that own that same distinction 3) Thornton was there for 6 years less than he was (and is only 6o points away from it).
No, I'm saying the NHL values both regular season and playoff performance. Marleau was a good post season performer, but he never had a 2004 Jarome Iginla or Keith Primeau run, a 86 or 97 Claude Lemieux run, or Chris Druy's 33% game winners. He was never at that level. He was good, but even in the playoffs he was never elite.
No, you're twisting the argument and using your own logic instead of looking the precedent of past players.
Playing Ability: 1600+ games (Great accomplishment) 500+ goals (Great accomplishment and it took 1463 games, which 200-300 games more than most players, and most of the players that scored in that GP range are not in the HHOF) (With a PPG of 0.70 which is far below where almost any HHOF forward sits)
Sportsmanship: Great guy
Character: If you're not going to do the research, he did have his captaincy stripped in 2009 and given to Rob Blake for a hot minute and then Thornton.
Contributions: Two Olympic Gold medals, however not a driver on those teams. Played a lot of playoff games, but was rarely the best player on the ice, that would either go to Pavelski or Thornton (Pavelski actually scored more goals than Marleau did over the course of their career together in San Jose during the playoffs).
I hate doing this because I love Patrick Marleau. But he's absolutely not a HHOF player and he never will be.
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Mickey Marner
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Personally, I think he needed to be better at hockey in order to be an HOF'er. But I'm sure I'll end up wrong.
WingsFan95
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MyBudJT
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The NHL is the best hockey league in the world. The fact that any hockey player can remain in the league for over 1600 games is a phenomenal acheivment... the fact that very few have reached this milestone says everything. A
I'm not saying Marleau is better than any HHOFer... I'm saying his acheivments is HHOF worthy... not even a question... 550+ goals is 550+ goals. It doesn't matter how you get there, its an amazing accomplishment. You're trying to deminish it by saying that it took him 1600+ games to get there... Well, if playing 1600 games is an unfair advantage, why don't more players play 1600+ games?
Its not dishonest at all... Playing the extra 400 games doesn't negate the fact that he still reached these milestones that very few have reached. It also doesn't change is contribution to the game of hockey. If anything, plaing more games ADDS to Marleau's contribution to hockey.
Why does it matter that it took an extra 200-300 games? Its still an accomplishment and contribution to hockey that very few have done. Fall of Fame worthy.
The HHOF has NOTHING to do with 'level of play'. It has everything to do with a person's contribution to the game of hockey.
It DOES add to his repitiore on his contribution to the game of hockey. Which the HHOF is all about.
LOL, I agree with this whole heartedly. Marleau has contributed a level of offense to the game of hockey that very few has. It doesn't matter how many games it took for him to get there.
Again, the Stanley Cup has very little to do with Olympic comparison anyways. Marleau has contributed significantly in the playoffs for a long time...
That isn't an answer to my question...
And how exactly has Marleau not done this?
Have you been reading anything I've been saying? I have a list of 16 things that Marleau has contirbuted.
I didn't say these are automatic benchmarks, but it DOES go to show that Marleau has done things that only special players have done.
And none of that matters, because Marleau would be leading most NHL teams in GP, G and P.... It doesn't matter that the franchise was young... Funny, it takes Marleau a long time to reach 1400+ games... it takes all NHL players a long time to reach 1400+ games. Who cares that Thornton was on Marleau's team? It doesn't negate that fact that he was a very special player for the San Jose franchise.
In fact, only 6 players have played more games, only 18 players have scored more goals, 27 players have scored more points, and 2 players scored more GWG for a single franchise.
I'm really not though...
Youre the one trying to deminish a players accomplishment, simply because he has been more durable than the vast majority of the NHL. Character isn't an issue for a player that has either worn the C or A for 17 seasons.
Hockeyholic
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GreatGonzo
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Marleau isn’t a HOF. I wish people would stop glorifying his “consistency.” There is a difference between being consistent at a high level and being consistent overall. Marleau has rarely been consistent for more than a few years in his career, and that was mainly playing with Thornton.
Sure, he has the sexy stats and milestones....but will we just continue to ignore the context? Let’s say he does win a cup, he won’t be an impactful player regardless.
Saying a cup would put him in implies that he’s right on the cusps of the Hall, I don’t see it. A good player, but hardly ever a top player. Even Andreychuk at one point had more top end seasons as a winger.
Sure, he has the sexy stats and milestones....but will we just continue to ignore the context? Let’s say he does win a cup, he won’t be an impactful player regardless.
Saying a cup would put him in implies that he’s right on the cusps of the Hall, I don’t see it. A good player, but hardly ever a top player. Even Andreychuk at one point had more top end seasons as a winger.
Walkingthroughforest
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Ok I’m obviously dealing with someone who can’t look past whatever bias they have here.
If durability was as big of a factor as you believe then you should be just as passionate about Shane Doan and Rod Brind’Amour being locks for the HHOF considering they have played nearly the same number of games as Marleau (really just a season and bits difference) and (in Rod’s case) has more points then Marleau. I wonder why you’re not? Tough call.
There’s a reason why the Art Ross and the Rocket are awarded to the player with the most points/goals in the fewest number of games. It is a greater accomplishment to score 80 points in 40 games then it is to score 80 points in 82 games. This precedent is already set and established. You can keep kicking and screaming that those accomplishments are equal, but they’re not. Just like compiling stats to hit milestones is less of an accomplishment then hitting them because of elite play.
I don’t know whether this is delusion or homerism but you very clearly aren’t informed on how the NHL HHOF works or just NHL history in general, though you’re very passionate about needing to be right. You can keep living in whatever this is, but you’re not going to find much company outside of the Leafs board.
Heck, you should make this thread on the Sharks board and see what they say. The answer may surprise you.
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MyBudJT
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Funny, I could say the same thing
It appears to me like your more concerned about your criteria rather than the HHOF criteria.
Walkingthroughforest
I got the worst ******* attorneys
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Be my guest and make a thread on the Sharks board if you think you're right. What do I know? I've only been here for 12 years.Funny, I could say the same thing
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
I just realized what Marleau is...he's an overrated Glen Murray.
If Murray played 600 more games, he'd have the same totals as Marleau
Marleau: .34 gpg, .37 apg, .71 ppg
Murray: .33 gpg, .31 apg, .65 ppg
- Both only had 2 40 G seasons
- Murray had the better points season with 92
- Murray's 3x AS-3 beats Marleau's 1x AS-4
- Both were 2x top 10 in goals. Murray's being better with 2nd and 5th
and in what Im sure is coincidence, both were parked next to Joe Thornton
If Murray played 600 more games, he'd have the same totals as Marleau
Marleau: .34 gpg, .37 apg, .71 ppg
Murray: .33 gpg, .31 apg, .65 ppg
- Both only had 2 40 G seasons
- Murray had the better points season with 92
- Murray's 3x AS-3 beats Marleau's 1x AS-4
- Both were 2x top 10 in goals. Murray's being better with 2nd and 5th
and in what Im sure is coincidence, both were parked next to Joe Thornton
Dustin
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Pretty sure he will get in. It will be a nice story for San Jose and Marleau has always been considered a "good guy" for the league.
Honestly I don't really care either. I would much rather the HHoF err on the side of letting in players that shouldn't be there as opposed to keeping players out who should be in.
Honestly I don't really care either. I would much rather the HHoF err on the side of letting in players that shouldn't be there as opposed to keeping players out who should be in.
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