Does Lucic trade give hope for Wings swapping bad contracts?

Hammettf2b

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Frans Neilsen to Ottawa 12 months from now. 5M cap hit for 2years, total salary 5.5M.

Ottawa may give back Ryan, 50% retained.

Ottawa saves 9.5M real money, Adds 1.25M to their cap hit which may be required to hit the floor. Detroit saves 1.25M on the cap and gets a better player.

Given age and production I think Detroit would have to add, 2nd rounder or B level prospect.
That would be a huge pass for me. I don't like adding a 2nd rounder only to save 1.25M on the cap when we don't even need to penny pinch with the cap. We have tons of space coming up and unless a superstar publicly declares he wants to play here ala Anthony Davis, I don't see the rush in saving as much cap as possible. In fact, we should be taking on cap dumps for assets not giving up assets to save on cap.
 

FireBird71

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Aug 6, 2015
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Frans Neilsen to Ottawa 12 months from now. 5M cap hit for 2years, total salary 5.5M.

Ottawa may give back Ryan, 50% retained.

Ottawa saves 9.5M real money, Adds 1.25M to their cap hit which may be required to hit the floor. Detroit saves 1.25M on the cap and gets a better player.

Given age and production I think Detroit would have to add, 2nd rounder or B level prospect.
I’ll keep what we got
 

ShelbyZ

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IMO, the deal was more about ridding the Oilers of a really nasty skid mark laden pair of briefs left on the locker room carpet by Peter Chiarelli and aligning the fanbase behind the HolPlANd, which was mixed to negative for his hiring and mixed to slightly more negative on his first foray into free agency as Oilers GM.

The Oilers should've been a contender by now and they're spending more ($500k more a year and possibly a 3rd rounder) to rid themselves of a distracting player that was underperforming and wanted out, for a gamble that Neal can return to being a 20 goal scorer.

Considering how puzzling it is for the Flames, that was probably the only deal out there for Lucic's contract which was said to be unmovable and is completely buyout proof. So doing the nearly impossible only helps Holland get some breathing room from a fanbase desperate for even the smallest shred of management competence and to forget the guy that was there before.

The Red Wings are in a different spot. They don't have the urgency to compete now, and probably aren't ready to start dumping out contracts to big name UFA's. That said, they do have the flexibility to start courting them if the need arises. Franzen, Daley and Ericsson are all likely 100% off the books next summer, and if Green and Howard aren't, it's at a lower cap hit than they're at now. The next summer you have Zetterberg, Helm, Filppula, Nemeth, and Bernier in the same boat. On top of that Helm's NTC is voided for the coming season and likely the next season since they didn't make playoffs. Abdelkaders does the same thing starting next July for the last 3 seasons of his deal. Nielsen's NTC has already slimmed down to a 10 team no trade list. A retained deal to a contender after 7/1/2020 would almost be like signing a veteran 3C as a UFA, with the bonus on not having to pay as much in real $, that is unless Nielsen really falls off in the next season. Nielsen's deal also has some LTIR potential for the last year (maybe two?) since he's only due $1.5M after 7/1/21.

On top of that, as long as Yzerman continues stacking up young assets and draft picks, he could always dangle something in front of Seattle in two years to get them to take Abdelkader or Nielsen if for whatever reason they really need the space.

As for OP's list of candidates:

Stepan - IMO, he's probably still a positive asset. He just turned 29. The Coyotes are probably hoping he can turn it around with a healthier team that includes Phil Kessel this coming season. He had a slow start last season, but in the 20 games before his injury he started to turn it around with 5G 9A in 20 games.

Backes/Dubinsky - These guys are both broken down aging plugs. Sure their contracts come off the books in only two years, but the Red Wings don't exactly have some cap crunch on the horizon that makes Neilsen/Abdelkader a block in retaining needed guys. None of their upcoming RFA's are going to break the bank, and as mentioned before, they have a steady stream of contracts coming off the books in the next 1-4 years. On top of that, Nielsen has been a decent influence who can compliment the development of (and keep up with) young wingers, and Abdelkader can still skate. In the unlikely chance that the Red Wings turn it around within the next two years, those two are probably more useful than Backes/Dubinsky.

Nemeth gives us a still somewhat young (ie, not over the hill) LD who can babysit Hronek, Green or Bowey, and play the PK.
I think he's the placeholder, perhaps, for McIsaac.

These are veteran guys who provide just a bit of stability, defense and smarts to help our young guys develop,

Nemeth is basically a year early "Liljicsson 3.0". A big offensive void Swede that gives them some insurance in their own zone. They also needed somebody to pencil into the 20-21 roster since there's no guarantee that young guys are going to be able to fill the spots opened if/when Daley, Ericsson, Green and Kronwall (if he returns) are gone, and will be tough to compete with 30 other teams to reasonably sign that more than a couple dmen on the UFA market.
 

ManwithNoIdentity

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We’re about 3 years from being a serious contender so I honestly wouldn’t mind just letting Nielsen’s contract play out, he at least has some positive contributions for the team

Abdelkader on the other hand is a complete albatross and is a pylon on ice

—-


When it comes to the Looch trade I think Neal has a really bad season and has potential to come back while Looch is LTIR bait
 

Mister Ed

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Dec 21, 2008
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The main difference between the Lucic-Neal deal and a possible Abdelkader or Nielsen deal is that the teams making the trade were in contention, while Detroit isn't. It doesn't really help anything if the dead cap space is just that - dead.
 

Retire91

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May 31, 2010
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Wings are/were in a position to take on bad contracts, why would we seek to move them. Just wait for them to run out. Same should have been done with Weiss just be patient and let them run out when you are in a cup window there is no need to rush to create cap space when the contracts start coming off in a few years anyway. Why give away assets for something you don't need.
 

Ezekial

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No one should be jazzed much less super jazzed on Ryan. and if you think Ottawa would be jazzed about Neilsen .....

Same contract length as Neilsen, 3 years younger, and somewhat better production.
I mean, Bobby Ryan's younger but dude's mitts have been broken more times than a boxer's nose, but the deal you've laid out is fine, if Veleno is ready we still have Filppula for that season and we save a lil money. Idk if the 2nd is something I'd realistically give up for the 1.25 in cap that we don't technically need right now - but it's something to ponder.
 

MBH

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Nemeth is basically a year early "Liljicsson 3.0". A big offensive void Swede that gives them some insurance in their own zone. They also needed somebody to pencil into the 20-21 roster since there's no guarantee that young guys are going to be able to fill the spots opened if/when Daley, Ericsson, Green and Kronwall (if he returns) are gone, and will be tough to compete with 30 other teams to reasonably sign that more than a couple dmen on the UFA market.

Right. But Nemeth is 27. Ericsson and Daley are 35.
I think this year we start with Dekeyser, Nemeth and Ericsson on LD.
Sometime in the next season, Cholowski enters the picture again (though, who he plays with considering the defensive limitations of Green, Hronek and Bowey, might be an issue.).
Cholowski starting 20-21 in Detroit.
Was hoping McIsaac might be a candidate in 21-22. Still could be.
Might be looking at
Dekeyser-Hronek
Cholowski-Seider
McIsaac-Lindstrom
But I doubt it. That's way young.
Ages of that top 6 to start in 21-22:
Dekeyser 31 - starting season 9
Hronek 23 - starting season 3.5
Cholowski 23 - starting season 3.5
Seider 20 - starting season 1 or 2.
McIsaac 21 - starting season 1 or 2
Lindstrom 22 - starting season 1 or 2.

There's just no way in hell the Re Wings go with a defense with 5 guys under 23. I would expect one of those guys to get shipped out for a veteran.
 

ShelbyZ

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Right. But Nemeth is 27. Ericsson and Daley are 35.
I think this year we start with Dekeyser, Nemeth and Ericsson on LD.
Sometime in the next season, Cholowski enters the picture again (though, who he plays with considering the defensive limitations of Green, Hronek and Bowey, might be an issue.).
Cholowski starting 20-21 in Detroit.
Was hoping McIsaac might be a candidate in 21-22. Still could be.
Might be looking at
Dekeyser-Hronek
Cholowski-Seider
McIsaac-Lindstrom
But I doubt it. That's way young.
Ages of that top 6 to start in 21-22:
Dekeyser 31 - starting season 9
Hronek 23 - starting season 3.5
Cholowski 23 - starting season 3.5
Seider 20 - starting season 1 or 2.
McIsaac 21 - starting season 1 or 2
Lindstrom 22 - starting season 1 or 2.

There's just no way in hell the Re Wings go with a defense with 5 guys under 23. I would expect one of those guys to get shipped out for a veteran.

I agree. I'm sure the front office knows that it's inevitable that not all of those guys are going to work out either. Someone's going to end up taking a turn down Sproul Drive or Ouellet Avenue.

It also doesn't seem to be in Yzerman's MO, either. Even while building his Lightning juggernaut, he leaned on a pretty vet heavy D and let a lot of guys ripen on the farm for as long as possible. For his first 3 years it was 20-22YO Hedman surrounded by 6/7 guys mostly over the age of 27 if not 30. And then in years where maybe it's time to give somebody on the farm or in the pressbox a shot (IE Barberio, Koekkoek, Dotchin, etc.) he opted to bring in a guy like Girardi. Obviously the situations are different, but it would seem Yzerman is pretty patient with young D, unless they really seem ready to make an impact (IE Sergachev).
 

avssuc

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Regarding OP

Nah. Edmonton is in win now mode. Detroit is 2-4 years away from potentially being relevant again. If a team wants a garbage contract from Detroit, I won’t say no, but I won’t give away assets to get rid of said contract.

Of course, I'm not denying that. Thing is, any good organization is always looking at contingency... like where some of their players break out and earn hefty raises prior to the anticipated timetable. Or perhaps they like what they see in Colorado (desiring a longer window of competition) and want to forgo bridge contracts like the dirty Avs. I'd be excited to see Yzerman doing that.

Also, if there's any confusion, I did mentioned that the teams were in different spots in the OP. What I'm unsure on is what players/teams might be partners here.

Just a fun little what if game... as the summer months drag on.
 

avssuc

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IMO, the deal was more about ridding the Oilers of a really nasty skid mark laden pair of briefs left on the locker room carpet by Peter Chiarelli and aligning the fanbase behind the HolPlANd, which was mixed to negative for his hiring and mixed to slightly more negative on his first foray into free agency as Oilers GM.

I don't think many saw it coming. Bringing in Chiarelli looked smart when it happened. He was a cup winner, his drafting was good enough, and his player managment was pretty decent in Boston. The Kesell trade and the 2006 draft won Boston the cup. Tough to tell how much credit belongs to him for the 06 draft, and how much belongs to the departing GM, former Red Wing, Mike O'Connell. Still, Chiarelli looked to be a decent hire. I don't think anyone thought it would end like this.

Imagine what this forum would look like if the Wings were in their spot after that many high lottery picks.

I do hope Holland has some success out there, the fans deserve something before the next rebuild.
 

ShelbyZ

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I don't think many saw it coming. Bringing in Chiarelli looked smart when it happened. He was a cup winner, his drafting was good enough, and his player managment was pretty decent in Boston. The Kesell trade and the 2006 draft won Boston the cup. Tough to tell how much credit belongs to him for the 06 draft, and how much belongs to the departing GM, former Red Wing, Mike O'Connell. Still, Chiarelli looked to be a decent hire. I don't think anyone thought it would end like this.

Imagine what this forum would look like if the Wings were in their spot after that many high lottery picks.

I do hope Holland has some success out there, the fans deserve something before the next rebuild.

I just mean the legacy he left in Edmonton. You know you're at the bottom when Chiarelli is the punchline to jokes or the basis of memes in threads all over this forum.

Unlike the Yzerman hire in Detroit, where like Harbaugh he was seen as the best and only worthwhile hire, and most fans immediately just hit the reset button and started piecing together new narratives for Holland like moves like "kEnNy WoUlD'vE gIvEn HiM 5 yEaRs ThO, sO iT's A gOoD sIgNiNg", the Oilers fan base reception wasn't as hot for their new GM... With some even declaring "Chiarelli 2.0", no doubt fueled by some Red Wings fans coming in and dropping lines like "hOpE yOu LiKe OvErPaYiNg VeT's" or the super ironic "hOpE yOu LiKe nTc'S".

I mean Holland could a disaster there, but there it's probably a given that moving Lucic's contract will erase a lot of doubt in some of the more negative to mixed reactors to his hiring.
 
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The Zermanator

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I laughed when that Neal for Lucic happened.

After all those critics Holland got here, how he is unable to do player-for-player trades. Then he goes and trades most impossible-to-be-traded player in the whole league.
How does that invalidate the criticisms? Because he never got around to doing something he's now shown he can do? Still being saddled with several bad contracts when he 'could have' gotten rid of them isn't really a consolation...

Besides it's a bit early to call that a win. Neal's contract isn't so hot either. And with the retention it's basically Neal at 6.5M vs Lucic at 5.25M. Neal will probably look better in the first couple years but neither of those contracts are going to age well most likely. Both teams are still in the 'loser' column just for being involved.
 

Zetterbeer

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I wonder if Stevie could send Abby to Ottawa for Bobby Ryan. Abby has 4 years left with a $4.25 cap hit and $14.25M in real money to be paid. Ryan has 3 years left with a $7.25 cap hit and $22M in real money to be paid. Melnyk could save nearly $8M in real money and get the better player ;)

If any deal was to be made, I assume it would be next off-season, as Abby's NTC goes up in smoke if we miss the playoffs or he is not among top 9 in forward ice time (which is a given).
 

MBH

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I laughed when that Neal for Lucic happened.

After all those critics Holland got here, how he is unable to do player-for-player trades. Then he goes and trades most impossible-to-be-traded player in the whole league.

If I'm Calgary, and I'm going to pay $5,5M for a guy with 7 goals, I'll take the guy with 260 hits.
 

avssuc

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I wonder if Stevie could send Abby to Ottawa for Bobby Ryan. Abby has 4 years left with a $4.25 cap hit and $14.25M in real money to be paid. Ryan has 3 years left with a $7.25 cap hit and $22M in real money to be paid. Melnyk could save nearly $8M in real money and get the better player ;)

If any deal was to be made, I assume it would be next off-season, as Abby's NTC goes up in smoke if we miss the playoffs or he is not among top 9 in forward ice time (which is a given).

Ottawa is the biggest wreck in the league, so I could see this happening. I would hope that the Sens retain a good chunk of that turds salary if it did happen.
 

Dotter

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i never said anything about moving an asset ! i said bad contract for bad contract with thee intentions of getting a shorter bad contract

Only makes sense if it's for an upgrade; position of need and quality leadership.

Basically why would anyone trade that guy? Red wings contacts don't hinder the team... At all!
 

Chris 84

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we don't need to move contracts right now. they don't matter. sure, if there's some great deal out there, then do it, but we certainly don't need to make it a priority or start paying teams with our futures to take bad contracts. the bad contracts make no difference to us right now.
 

obey86

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How does that invalidate the criticisms? Because he never got around to doing something he's now shown he can do? Still being saddled with several bad contracts when he 'could have' gotten rid of them isn't really a consolation...

Besides it's a bit early to call that a win. Neal's contract isn't so hot either. And with the retention it's basically Neal at 6.5M vs Lucic at 5.25M. Neal will probably look better in the first couple years but neither of those contracts are going to age well most likely. Both teams are still in the 'loser' column just for being involved.

I believe the Neal contract is easier to buy out. So even if Neal performs as bad as Lucic does, he can be bought out without as much pain.
 

RabidBadger

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To all those predicting the Wings window of contention is several years away, here's that 2017 expansion team that went to the cup final in their 1st year, got jobbed in the 1st round last year, and are now against the cap. I guess nobody told them they weren't supposed to be good for their 1st three years of existence.


Trade: Clarkson contract back to Toronto; Vegas opens up space

I wish I shared your enthusiasm about returning to contention. Vegas was a unique situation where they accumulated NHL players who magically gelled and played well above their former standards. It didn't hurt to land a possible HOF goalie either.

To turbo-charge the rebuild, every important Wings prospect would have to be a hit and excel in development. They would also have to sign perfect complimentary FAs. It's not impossible, but you can't blame most here for thinking the 2nd round of the playoffs is likely 4-6 years away. If they make the 2nd round within 3 years from now then 1st and 2nd pitchers are on me:cheers:
 
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Snuggs

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Might consider swapping with the NYI and trying to do Nick Leddy for Frans Nielsen . (Leddy is an extra year 7 mill salary/5.5 cap hit.)

Other than that one I can't think of many trades that give our team some value. I'm all for trading for value as I think Leddy is better than Nielsen. But Islanders can get more than what I just offered if they made him available. Only reason they could consider is they owe Leddy 21 million in salary and Nielsen is actually way cheaper the next two years being owed only 8 million and off the books a year earlier. Cap hit is 5.5 for Leddy and 5.25 for Nielsen so not much savings there.
 

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