KINGS17
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Private Pyle, you are definitely born again hard! Hell, I may even allow you to serve as a rifleman in my beloved Corps.
Does Doughty have the worst contract in the NHL?
- Thread starter Axl Rhoadz
- Start date
Private Pyle, you are definitely born again hard! Hell, I may even allow you to serve as a rifleman in my beloved Corps.
kevsh
Registered User
- Nov 28, 2018
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A better example is to show the difference between goalies with great numbers playing on great teams that when traded to a defensively weaker team their numbers suffer. Is he a great goalie that made his team great, or an average goalie that the team made look great?
Let's see over the next few years, as L.A. ideally starts winning if he looks better too. If not, then yes, he's sliding and his contract is/will be a problem.
Raccoon Jesus
Todd McLellan is an inside agent
I agree, those were good dudes. Who would those guys' comparables be in the current NHL? I guess Modry = Maatta, but you're hard pressed to find good pro character vets to insulate with. Hell we weren't able to replace Stoll, Mitchell, Regehr, never mind JDub.
But besides, do you truly think DL wouldn't have rather had an early 30s Kopitar and Doughty instead of Handzus and O'D?
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
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Well, Clifford was a guy you wouldn't trade if you were going to follow this model.
If you are looking for older players you could get on shorter term contracts the UFA market offered guys like Cody Eakin, Brian Boyle, Andy Greene, Wayne Simmonds, Ron Hainsey, Michael Frolik, and Andrej Sekera. All of these guys seem to be solid teammates who give a good effort. You certainly wouldn't need all of them. Two or three would suffice.
I think if Dean was coming into the current situation he wouldn't mind having Kopitar, but not at this price for this term. I think Dean would have Demitra'ed Doughty. We'll never know.
Raccoon Jesus
Todd McLellan is an inside agent
NO argument here--other than splitting hairs over the players really, and I'm not sure we'd be at the cap floor
But also different contract era too so I think it's apples to oranges anyway, I hadn't really thought that part thru
Still, personally, I appreciate Kopitar and DOughty much more for slotting reasons. I'm not sure Matt Roy develops like he did if he's playing Drew's role and I'm not sure Vilardi breaks in the same way with no Kopitar, and we'll see that a bit more in coming years with Byfield et. al. (or imagine how much Bjornfot would have gotten rolled). I think when I refer to the Edmonton model it's that a lot of those guys got drafted and immediately it was like "welp you're the guy, go play against Kopitar and Doughty now" and you can see how that stunted even now-good players like RNH.
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
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NO argument here--other than splitting hairs over the players really, and I'm not sure we'd be at the cap floor
But also different contract era too so I think it's apples to oranges anyway, I hadn't really thought that part thru
Still, personally, I appreciate Kopitar and DOughty much more for slotting reasons. I'm not sure Matt Roy develops like he did if he's playing Drew's role and I'm not sure Vilardi breaks in the same way with no Kopitar, and we'll see that a bit more in coming years with Byfield et. al. (or imagine how much Bjornfot would have gotten rolled). I think when I refer to the Edmonton model it's that a lot of those guys got drafted and immediately it was like "welp you're the guy, go play against Kopitar and Doughty now" and you can see how that stunted even now-good players like RNH.
Yes, this is where Edmonton blew it. Wouldn't mind having a guy like RNH on the Kings though the next time he is a UFA to help mentor some of the younger guys. He gets his next deal at age 29 after next season, and if his character is alright, I wouldn't mind seeing a player like him ride shotgun on Vilardi or Byfield's line for 3 or 4 years.
No way any team should be giving RNH an 8-year deal next time, but some NHL GMs are not exactly Phi Beta Kappa.
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
I think the contract efficiency thing is a stupid article but maybe I didn't dig into it enough. I mean, are big money contracts on teams that don't win many games a bad thing in a vacuum? Is that not efficient? Is dead cap via buyouts on a team that doesn't win many games inefficient? No way!?!
As for Doughty, the contract sucks. Kopitar's sucks as well when looked at like K17 has been and this efficiency article does: they are being paid a lot of money for declining results in both performance and W/L record. That was known at the time, however, and the ship sailed a long time ago on moving them for futures etc...and not giving them the "thank you" contract.
The real question now is how bad are these deals moving forward? They seem real bad when you were under impression the Kings were trying to win but they are going to be extremely flush in cap space after this season and then even more so the following season when Brown/Carter fall off. Summer of '22 shows a projected $48MM in cap space. Sure, things will happen between now and then and you have some contracts coming up for young guys but I don't see anything that the Doughty/Kopitar contracts make an impossibility. In the Summer of '22, Kopitar will only have two more season's left as well so his $10MM goes bye-bye. It will be great if Vilardi is looking at a huge RFA deal in that summer since that means he will have been playing great for two seasons but space shouldn't be an issue. Byfield is an RFA in the last year of Kopitar's contract unless they can get away without this year counting. That could cause an issue but I still think they are going to be set up pretty well.
That $11MM for Doughty goes on for a pretty long time though. It could really cause a problem in the last couple years of it just for the size alone and it will be even worse if his play falls off a cliff. No magic bullet of "the actual salary is only $4MM" to try and sell him to a poor team so they can reach the cap floor: MF'er is getting $11MM base salary all day.
Long story short, there is value to them being vets on a team that is bringing along a bunch of young players. Kopitar's deal most likely won't hurt anything and I like him much more than Doughty from a mentoring POV. We always talked about Doughty and Kopitar aging well: I am much more concerned about Doughty regardless of the fact his deal goes on forever. Hopefully the insulation he provides via eating all these minutes now will help the future of the blueline reach or surpass its potential to the point where he can be bottom-pairing if needed in the last couple years of his deal. He'll be 36 and 37 the last two years and will have a shit ton of miles on his tires by then.
As for Doughty, the contract sucks. Kopitar's sucks as well when looked at like K17 has been and this efficiency article does: they are being paid a lot of money for declining results in both performance and W/L record. That was known at the time, however, and the ship sailed a long time ago on moving them for futures etc...and not giving them the "thank you" contract.
The real question now is how bad are these deals moving forward? They seem real bad when you were under impression the Kings were trying to win but they are going to be extremely flush in cap space after this season and then even more so the following season when Brown/Carter fall off. Summer of '22 shows a projected $48MM in cap space. Sure, things will happen between now and then and you have some contracts coming up for young guys but I don't see anything that the Doughty/Kopitar contracts make an impossibility. In the Summer of '22, Kopitar will only have two more season's left as well so his $10MM goes bye-bye. It will be great if Vilardi is looking at a huge RFA deal in that summer since that means he will have been playing great for two seasons but space shouldn't be an issue. Byfield is an RFA in the last year of Kopitar's contract unless they can get away without this year counting. That could cause an issue but I still think they are going to be set up pretty well.
That $11MM for Doughty goes on for a pretty long time though. It could really cause a problem in the last couple years of it just for the size alone and it will be even worse if his play falls off a cliff. No magic bullet of "the actual salary is only $4MM" to try and sell him to a poor team so they can reach the cap floor: MF'er is getting $11MM base salary all day.
Long story short, there is value to them being vets on a team that is bringing along a bunch of young players. Kopitar's deal most likely won't hurt anything and I like him much more than Doughty from a mentoring POV. We always talked about Doughty and Kopitar aging well: I am much more concerned about Doughty regardless of the fact his deal goes on forever. Hopefully the insulation he provides via eating all these minutes now will help the future of the blueline reach or surpass its potential to the point where he can be bottom-pairing if needed in the last couple years of his deal. He'll be 36 and 37 the last two years and will have a shit ton of miles on his tires by then.
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
Only three years left on Kopitar's contract after this season, and six years for Doughty. These contracts aren't debilitating the team right now, and it's hard to say if it will in the future. By the time all the top prospects are ready for big contracts, Kopitar's deal will already be expired and Doughty's contract length will be cut in half.
KINGS17
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Again, is "not debilitating" the new standard for Kopitar and Doughty's contracts?
Anguyen92
Registered User
- Aug 23, 2020
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I think Kopitar's contract is fine for what it is. Still our best scorer although I know a lot of non-Kings fans wouldn't pick him to be better than other 1Cs in the league making around the same or more than him. If he isn't on this team right now, we will be in much horrible shape. I guess there's an argument of trading him before his new deal kicked in on 2016-2017, but we were still doing "ok" in 2015-2016 that we would be morons for trading him and that we would be morons for not resigning him. Is 10M a year too much to offer at the time? Well, considering that Kane/Toews both got $10.5M around the same period, and Kopitar can be feasibly be compared to them at the time, maybe $10M seemed fine in Lombardi's eyes. Also, Kopitar hasn't fallen off yet in terms of the things he's great for, but can he maintain that for four more years left on his contract? Hopefully, but doubtful.
Doughty's contract. Yeah...., I'm more doubtful that this contract would be above expected value for us as an organization, in comparison to his previous deal, but it's not the worst contract in the league. It won't hinder us from making solid moves if needed. I wouldn't say that at the start of the 2019 season, but I can comfortably say that now. Still could be a bad contract and part of me thinks that if Doughty had to go UFA at the time, then it could be a blessing. Everyone here would be up in flames about it. I don't know.
Doughty's contract. Yeah...., I'm more doubtful that this contract would be above expected value for us as an organization, in comparison to his previous deal, but it's not the worst contract in the league. It won't hinder us from making solid moves if needed. I wouldn't say that at the start of the 2019 season, but I can comfortably say that now. Still could be a bad contract and part of me thinks that if Doughty had to go UFA at the time, then it could be a blessing. Everyone here would be up in flames about it. I don't know.
DoktorJeep
Expediency x Sentimentality = Mediocrity
It’s bad business to pay a player top 10 money and get results outside the top 50 in the league. It sends the message that ice time isn’t being earned, it’s being handed out. Kopitar and Doughty didn’t earn their paychecks from 2015 to 2016. And they haven’t done it the past two years either.
I’m a realist so I don’t expect them to not have been resigned or be traded (although I hold out hope for Doughty). But keeping them AND Brown, Quick and Carter to the ends of their deals puts the team at a disadvantage when it comes to rebuilding.
How likely is it that any of the following things happen in the next 5 years?
Kopitar contends for a Selke
Doughty contends for a Norris
Brown throws a big hit
Carter scores a goal from outside the blue paint
Quick wins a shootout
Probably not likely for more than one or two to happen. Which sucks, because all these guys are cashing the big checks, but will be either flogged out there because the kids aren’t good enough or they take reduced roles gladly. I know a lot of people are expecting the second scenario, but based on how many coaches these guys have churned through the past few years, it’s not like they have a track record of leadership.
A lot of fans expect these guys to be leaders and groom the kids. What evidence is there that they are able to do that? Just because Willie Mitchell and Scuderi helped Doughty, that means he is now some savvy vet? He’s too busy running his mouth at that fool Tkachuk and making it about himself. Kopitar is a great player, but you think he’s getting in the face of some rookie like Matt Greene? Brown and Carter are probably marking paychecks remaining off a calendar on the fridge in the training room.
Too many fans are wearing purple tinted glasses and putting all their chips on hope plays. It is smarter to maintain some skepticism, but by all means drink the koolaid if it makes you happier.
Seriously what would we be doing with the cap space available if we didn’t have Kopitar or Doughty? What free agents would we sign? Pietrangelo? We’d have to offer him Doughty money to come to a bottom dwelling team. Offer sheet Sergachev? And with him being like the only talented Dman we’d be giving up multiple top 5-10 draft picks.
The last big free agent to sign with a California team was Scott Neidermayer and that was to come play with his brother. In all the years the Ducks, Kings and Sharks were good/contenders no marquee free agents signed with them. Everything was drafted or traded for. So we’d have to trade our prospects to get the players we want which would turn us right around to like 2016. No depth with like 1-3 good players.
Raccoon Jesus
Todd McLellan is an inside agent
I think that's another piece of it--there are a lot of guys who have yet to get paid. Maybe over the next couple of years contracts are artificially deflated because of economics, but does anyone really think, say, Dahlin and Makar are going to get lower %s of the cap than Doughty did? And there are already players in Kopitar's neighborhood contract wise. It's only a matter of time.
Like I said earlier I THINK In this thread I remember when we were freaking out about DD's 7 million #. By the end that was a steal. Obviously age is a factor but if there are guys that will at least eat SOME value of those contracts it's Anze and Drew. They aren't going to be utter anchors.
Pretty f***ing likely given we are not even 1.5 years away from the last time that happened.
And I can't even begin to argue with your conception of leadership only being getting in a dude's face and the idea that Doughty isn't a saavy vet that has seen it all.
It doesn't take purple tinted glasses to point out there's almost no world in which these contracts actively hurt us or even cause small pro, but feel free to keep drinking the cyanide while lecturing down from the soapbox if it makes you happier.
johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
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Doughty has become a very sloppy and dopey player. Falling down, losing his stick, undisciplined big wind-up slapshot missing the net by two feet.
That said, I still think he can turn it on when he's motivated. We saw it in games against Calgary for example.
Reminds me a bit of Rob Blake during his second stint here. The team was playing for nothing, and Rob was coasting. Then occasionally he'd get riled up and you could see he was still capable of being an excellent player when we wanted to.
Veteran guys who have won everything don't get too much excitement / motivation when the teaming is playing meaningless games night in and night out.
That said, I still think he can turn it on when he's motivated. We saw it in games against Calgary for example.
Reminds me a bit of Rob Blake during his second stint here. The team was playing for nothing, and Rob was coasting. Then occasionally he'd get riled up and you could see he was still capable of being an excellent player when we wanted to.
Veteran guys who have won everything don't get too much excitement / motivation when the teaming is playing meaningless games night in and night out.
Doughty was in the NHL All star team of the decade. Top 2 defencemen over a 10 year period. You could wait another 100 years and the Kings may not have another defenceman to do that.
Once you get one of those you NEVER EVER:
A) Trade them
B) Not pay them
Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. Regardless of how his career pans out from here you sign him to that contract 10/10 times
Once you get one of those you NEVER EVER:
A) Trade them
B) Not pay them
Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. Regardless of how his career pans out from here you sign him to that contract 10/10 times
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
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Raccoon Jesus
Todd McLellan is an inside agent
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
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No, it was the summer of 2018. Still after 2016, and the handwriting as far as the team was going was on the wall.
I was referring to how good he will be going forward. Doughty has a lot of miles and his blue book value has fallen quite a bit.
We can all say how great he was, and how he still may have it, but the truth is he hasn't been a top-flight NHL defenseman for at least two seasons.
Should also consider the time in which the contracts were made. When Doughty was up, it was either let him walk for nothing or sign him but you weren't going to get him cheap. He was a Norris finalist that year, no less.
The Tikkanen
Pest
what's the motivation. for Kopitar, Brown, Carter , Doughty and Quick THIS season other than capturing a paycheck?
Raccoon Jesus
Todd McLellan is an inside agent
Choralone
Registered User
Pride / relevancy. They have the longest extant drought of championship appearances for any LA franchise... (It's unbelievable, but true. No, I don't count the San Diego castoff franchises.)
kilowatt
the vibes are not immaculate
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They’re still professional hockey players. A lot of these guys are getting older and may never get another shot.
Doughty won't be an issue for two or three more seasons at least, just depends on his durability (which has shown no signs of slowing down) and his motivation. He definitely cares what the league thinks of him, but he knows that even at 100% he can't elevate the team back to the postseason all by himself. In the end, it doesn't matter, either way, he is someone you easily keep during this time, if not for when the youth begins to turn things around, then for ticket sales at the very least.
funky
Time for the future. More Byfield and Clarke
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Anyone questioning Kopitar’s value to this team is not watching the same game I am. The guy is a two way horse that leads this team offensively year after year with no real help on his wings and a non existent second line. Other teams can devote their best shutdown lines and d pairs against him because they have no other threats on the Kings to worry about.
Kopitar is one of the best defensive forwards in the game as well. He is good in the draw and always leads the charge back.
The guy rarely misses a game, puts up big minutes a game in all situations and doesnt depend on speed, crushing people and sacrificing his body so he should age well and has aged well.
I guess we can’t please some. Without Kopitar who are you lining up at center. A majority of teams can’t even find a second line centers let alone top line guys right now. I guess we could have went out and replaced him with Spezza or Thornton this year. How about we promote from within. Vilardi and his 10 NHL games is our number 1, So is it Lizotte or Amadio for 2. Thank goodness JAD is here to take over at 4.
If Kopitar is not here for the next 2 to 4 years our new shiny toys like Vilardi, Turcotte and Byfield get thrown to the wolves.
the day Kopitar retires his jersey should go to the rafters.
Kopitar is one of the best defensive forwards in the game as well. He is good in the draw and always leads the charge back.
The guy rarely misses a game, puts up big minutes a game in all situations and doesnt depend on speed, crushing people and sacrificing his body so he should age well and has aged well.
I guess we can’t please some. Without Kopitar who are you lining up at center. A majority of teams can’t even find a second line centers let alone top line guys right now. I guess we could have went out and replaced him with Spezza or Thornton this year. How about we promote from within. Vilardi and his 10 NHL games is our number 1, So is it Lizotte or Amadio for 2. Thank goodness JAD is here to take over at 4.
If Kopitar is not here for the next 2 to 4 years our new shiny toys like Vilardi, Turcotte and Byfield get thrown to the wolves.
the day Kopitar retires his jersey should go to the rafters.
