Does Bettman keep his job?

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reckoning

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Jan 4, 2005
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Crazy_Ike said:
Also, since the players' salaries are now on the ball when it comes to entertainment, they *should* be less willing to embrace systems that bore the fans to death, though given hockey players have not demonstrated a great deal of intelligence lately, this may be asking too much from them.

Great idea Einstein. So if some rookie is on the Flyers next season and Ken Hitchcock tells him to play the trap then the kid should say "Sorry, but since my salary is tied to the entertainment value, I`m not going to do that." Then he`ll get a one-way ticket to the AHL. The players hate the trap as much as the fans do, but they`re judged on whether they win or not, and if the trap is the best way to win, then that`s what they do.

The players are paid to win; if their style is boring then it`s the league`s job to tweak the rules to make the game more exciting. That`s what the NFL and NBA did. This should be simple for you to understand, but since you have not demonstrated a great deal of intelligence lately, this may be asking too much.
 

spokedB44

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I think he may be given a very nice severance package because of the great deal he is likely to get for the owners. Its safe to say some new blood is needed for hockey going forward
 

Hawker14

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they only let the US president have two terms (8 years), so 13 years with bettman has been more than enough.

away with bettman !!!
 

BigE

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Crazy_Ike said:
You can be as confident as you like - the FACT is it was all an illusion. Gretzky retired and Lemieux got hurt, and there was no one of even remotely close stature to replace either, the closest being Lindros who didn't have the head for the NHL and so almost lost it to Scott Stevens. The league can't depend on the Rangers winning the Cup every year; some pretty darn Americanesque cities won the cup during the last ten years and it hasn't meant a thing. The Olympics should have been something of wonder but all it did was expose how badly some pro athletes behave and illustrated the difference in playing styles between it and the NHL due to the effectiveness of defensive systems when given enough time to practice them.

Hockey was not breaking out. Hockey was becoming extremely overrated and the sports media, never the cleverest bunch, fell for it. It's high stature was very limited to a few regions of the US and was *never* a factor anywhere else.

If anything, the collapse should have been even worse. Every NHL fan should feel lucky that Bettman and the owners have stuck to their guns against the stupidly insane NHLPA, and now they're going to get a second chance at life. Hockey isn't overrated anymore. If the quality of the games go up, it could be the most *underrated* of the big sports coming out of this; certainly some other people think so.

Twenty years from now people will look back and say Bettman was the best thing going for hockey during this period.

In the same period Bettman increased revenues several times over. The uncontrollable factor was player salaries, which were being centrally controlled by Goodenow and his agent cronies. Bettman is not allowed by law to centrally manage salary offers from the owners. The central planning from Goodenow ensured that every player measured his worth against the highest paid peer, meaning the entire league was forced to adapt to a pay structure set by those who paid the most, regardless of whether or not hockey revenues warranted the salary.

This one flaw is what had to be fixed. That's what they're doing right now. What would *really* have been a failure would have been for Bettman to fold to the NHLPA's unreasonable demands. He did not, and hockey is better for it EVEN IF we lost a season to do it.

Amidst your rambling and run-ons I was left with a two part conclusion; first, you didn't read (see comprehend if you're at all unsure as to what I mean) my post and second, your own points are nothing but re-hashed rhetoric that not one single person here, hasn't heard at least ten times by now.

In twenty years Bettman will be looked upon as the best thing ever to hit the NHL? Are you ****ing kidding me? You clearly must have misunderstood or even just skimmed right past my entire post if you aren't at least willing to back that up with any substantial support. What did Bettman do that anyone else could not have done? The answer is nothing and that is my entire point.

He has no hockey experience, he did absolutely nothing with the opportunities presented to him after he took over as Commissioner and his ineptness only further hurt the game by not only failing to advance it but in aiding it's decline.

Of course revenues are going to increase when you add four new teams to the league. The TV deals and sponsorship deals were made because of predictions based on the past and what previous successes would "inevitabley" hold for the future. This was not Bettman's work, these weren't Bettman's deals. These, like I've said, were deals that were going to happen (just the same as this CBA).

You're so eager to talk about revenues on the NHL side, and then shift the blame of costs to the PA. All of a sudden Bob Goodenow is the evil mastermind behind a plot to gouge the owners for every cent. Here's a little clue for you; every transaction (that means trade, signing, waiver drop) has to be sent through the NHL Central Registry and approved by the commissioner. The Central Registry has turned down trades and signings before and this right of the NHL was explicitly put into the last CBA as a check against salaries. Where was Bettman when Alexei Yashin signed a 10 yr, $10 000 000 deal? Where was Mr. Bettman when Bobby Holik signed a 5 yr. $45 000 000 deal (yeah, that's right...count the zeros!!! Bobby Frickin' Holik!!)?

You're fooling yourself if you blame the escalating costs of this industry on the players. The NHL (that includes your savior) signed a bad deal in 94 that proceeded to **** them for ten years straight. Not only did they fail to ensure proper language in the last CBA (see loopholes) but they failed to use the proper checks and balances in order to keep the industry above the red.

At the end of the day these owners sign the cheques and it's their choice whether or not to sign off on a contract. To blame the players for taking what they've been offered is ludicrous. The players have their fair share of responsibility in this CBA matter and for reasons that I think we'll all agree are obvious. However, blaming the players for taking salaries they were offered and operating under a CBA signed IN PARTNERSHIP is another faulty point in your argument.

------

Now don't get me wrong here, I'm on one side - that of the FANS. I think the actions of both parties over the past year have been dispicable but that doesn't mean honesty and the good ol' art of "calling a spade, a spade", have to be thrown under the bus.

Bettman was bad for this game 10 years ago, is bad for this game now and will be bad for this game until he's removed. There isn't a person with even the lowest credentials that couldn't have gotten this deal done and that should tell you all you need to know about Bettman.

So, in the end what are you left with? A big pile of steaming **** from 1994 and a game that's been run downhill faster than a Russian race horse with a glue truck on his ass.
 

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BigE said:
He has no hockey experience, he did absolutely nothing with the opportunities presented to him after he took over as Commissioner and his ineptness only further hurt the game by not only failing to advance it but in aiding it's decline.

First of all, there were no "opportunities" presented to him. Your entire premise is based on the idea that early to mid 90's hockey was the golden period for the sport. An article in SI is really all that ever supported the notion.

Of course revenues are going to increase when you add four new teams to the league. The TV deals and sponsorship deals were made because of predictions based on the past and what previous successes would "inevitabley" hold for the future. This was not Bettman's work, these weren't Bettman's deals. These, like I've said, were deals that were going to happen (just the same as this CBA).

What a preposterous suggestion. I don't know where to go with that. TV deals went from $17 mil per year to $120 per year, but that was "going to happen".

You're so eager to talk about revenues on the NHL side, and then shift the blame of costs to the PA. All of a sudden Bob Goodenow is the evil mastermind behind a plot to gouge the owners for every cent. Here's a little clue for you; every transaction (that means trade, signing, waiver drop) has to be sent through the NHL Central Registry and approved by the commissioner. The Central Registry has turned down trades and signings before and this right of the NHL was explicitly put into the last CBA as a check against salaries. Where was Bettman when Alexei Yashin signed a 10 yr, $10 000 000 deal? Where was Mr. Bettman when Bobby Holik signed a 5 yr. $45 000 000 deal (yeah, that's right...count the zeros!!! Bobby Frickin' Holik!!)?

Here is a little clue for you. The NHL has no right to turn down deals that are not fiscally prudent. They can only turn down deals that are against the rules. I am actually not sure they have ever rejected a contract, but if they did I can assure you it was not because it was imprudent.

The right of the league to refuse to register contracts was not put into the CBA as a check against salaries. You are either intentianally misstating things or are completely ignorant of both the CBA, contracts in general and the history of NHL collective bargaining.


At the end of the day these owners sign the cheques and it's their choice whether or not to sign off on a contract. To blame the players for taking what they've been offered is ludicrous. The players have their fair share of responsibility in this CBA matter and for reasons that I think we'll all agree are obvious. However, blaming the players for taking salaries they were offered and operating under a CBA signed IN PARTNERSHIP is another faulty point in your argument.

Another old chestnut: players were "offered" salaries. Putting aside arbitration, where players are awarded salaries they are not offered at all, the teams are coerced into signing players. If you are aware of the situation over the past ten years, you will know the PA and agetns worked together in collusive fashion to manage the constant escalation of salaries as they saw fit.


Bettman was bad for this game 10 years ago, is bad for this game now and will be bad for this game until he's removed. There isn't a person with even the lowest credentials that couldn't have gotten this deal done and that should tell you all you need to know about Bettman.

Well, one thing in your favour. You can't be wrong all the time, so keep posting and your luck may change.

As I have said before, if Bettman was from Saskatoon, he would be a hero even to the pro-Pa lemmings.
 

c-carp

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Scugs said:
I'm just curious to see what everyone thinks... Points have been made, some favouring Bettman as the commish, and some ripping him.

Now, obviously we don't yet know the specifics of this CBA. But from what we do know, did Bettman handle this well? Did he get all that he promised to the 30 owners? Basically..

Did Bettman do his job?

I'd like to know what everyones opinions are on Bettman, now that the lockout seems to have finally come to a close.

I personally... Can't decide. If I had to, I would probably choose "No". Simply because I think we need a change, and two new guys who respect each other.
I hate Bettman, I couldnt say NO strong enough.
 

c-carp

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ProctorSilex said:
Yes, he does.

I personally hate Bettman, since 1993 this league has been horrible and teams moved when they shouldn't have. TV has gone down, etc. etc.

But he won this war and stood his ground. I respect that, and I'm sure all 30 owners feel the same way.
In heinsight this was never a war. If the Ownere were united which we now know they were. The players were taking a knife to a gunfight. I am right with you on the hatred for Bettman. I think people are giving him Credit for Winning the lockout ot whatever and I guess in the one contect he did but I think he just had the good fortune of being Commisoner when the Owners said enough is enough we are going to fix this. In most other aspects like the ones you have mentioned he flat out sucked as commisioner.
 

c-carp

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nyrmessier011 said:
I refuse to vote either way because he will keep his job for what he did in the passed 10 months, but shouldn't be allowed to for what he's done in the passed 10 years...and don't respond with all the positive stuff he has done, because the negative is far, far worse, so don't even try to challenge this. The guy should be shot.
Amen Bro.
 

c-carp

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BigE said:
In the end I don't think it's fair to say that Bettman saved the game. I'll never be alright with saying that and it's not because I don't like the guy - it's just not the truth. Anybody in Bettman's shoes could have done this deal, he played a waiting game that everyone in hockey (other than the players) knew was going to get him a big win. It was a long time coming.

You could just as easily make the argument that after dropping the ball during the last CBA and turning an inherited gold mine into a **** bin, he's about even. The guy doesn't know hockey, he doesn't know advertising and he's got about as much charisma as a barking dog.

He'll keep his job but considering the owners demanded a big win, there wasn't an alternative. No bad deal would have been ratified; no bad deal, no Bettman tossing. :)
Beat post in the whole thread Big E
 

Crazy_Ike

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BigE said:
Amidst your rambling and run-ons I was left with a two part conclusion; first, you didn't read (see comprehend if you're at all unsure as to what I mean) my post and second, your own points are nothing but re-hashed rhetoric that not one single person here, hasn't heard at least ten times by now.

Actually, that would apply a great deal more to the tripe you just posted, as I will now amply prove, to reckoning's intense dislike. :D


In twenty years Bettman will be looked upon as the best thing ever to hit the NHL? Are you ****ing kidding me? You clearly must have misunderstood or even just skimmed right past my entire post if you aren't at least willing to back that up with any substantial support. What did Bettman do that anyone else could not have done? The answer is nothing and that is my entire point.

That is such an easy thing to say. The fact is HE did it, not anyone else, and you are hardly privy enough to any details to say whether or not it could have been done by other people. It probably could have, by some, and couldn't have by others, but regardless, Bettman DID.


He has no hockey experience

Typical "New York Lawyer" tripe from a PA zombie.


he did absolutely nothing with the opportunities presented to him after he took over as Commissioner

Elaborate? Or are you just repeating the same old baloney about how the league was about to eclipse baseball and basketball in the '90s, baloney long since shown to be nothing more than unrealistic hot air? Post proof, buckwheat.


and his ineptness only further hurt the game by not only failing to advance it but in aiding it's decline.

Yet more declarations lacking evidence.


Of course revenues are going to increase when you add four new teams to the league.

The idea that you triple revenues to date, increasing them year after year simply by adding four expansion teams is laughable in the extreme and shows your simpleminded, rather clueless approach to economics.


The TV deals and sponsorship deals were made because of predictions based on the past and what previous successes would "inevitabley" hold for the future. This was not Bettman's work, these weren't Bettman's deals. These, like I've said, were deals that were going to happen (just the same as this CBA).

Such hyp[ocrisy - those deals were "inevitable" but everything else is not? Such selective reasoning you're showing there, sport. :D


You're so eager to talk about revenues on the NHL side, and then shift the blame of costs to the PA. All of a sudden Bob Goodenow is the evil mastermind behind a plot to gouge the owners for every cent.

Gee, that couldn't be because player salaries had balooned to three quarters of the costs of the business? You know, the ENTIRE REASON for the lockout in the first place?

You really haven't been paying attention, have you?


Here's a little clue for you; every transaction (that means trade, signing, waiver drop) has to be sent through the NHL Central Registry and approved by the commissioner. The Central Registry has turned down trades and signings before and this right of the NHL was explicitly put into the last CBA as a check against salaries.

Here's a little clue for YOU: it is ILLEGAL for the league to refuse a contract simply because they don't like how high it is. They have to have legal reasons to stop a contract.

You have a lot of learning to do before you get up to the basic level of understanding 85% of the people here, judging from the voting numbers, are showing. Please stop posting stupidity like the above until you're at that level.


Where was Bettman when Alexei Yashin signed a 10 yr, $10 000 000 deal? Where was Mr. Bettman when Bobby Holik signed a 5 yr. $45 000 000 deal (yeah, that's right...count the zeros!!! Bobby Frickin' Holik!!)?

If you turned your brain on for one millisecond you would have figured out by now that if the league *could* have stopped those contracts, they *would* have. They didn't. Now most people with more intelligence than a slug would correctly conclude that that would mean they *couldn't*, hmm?

How come you can't? What's wrong with you? Too many paint chips as a child?


You're fooling yourself if you blame the escalating costs of this industry on the players.

I don't. I blame it on the union leadership and the complicity of those owners using more money than revenue warranted. But the result was in player salaries out of control, and therefore that's where it has to be taken back.


The NHL (that includes your savior) signed a bad deal in 94 that proceeded to **** them for ten years straight.

Another lesson for our clueless poster here - that deal was signed over Bettman's objections and he fixed that by changing the amount of support he needed to hold on to his guns. So when he got a chance to fix it, he DID. Right now. Capiche?


Not only did they fail to ensure proper language in the last CBA (see loopholes) but they failed to use the proper checks and balances in order to keep the industry above the red.

So your argument is because they blew it last CBA they should continue to blow it? Bettman, already established to not be the problem from the last CBA, is fixing it at the best time he had a chance to. He could have done so three years earlier, if he had been more willing to throw new teams under the bus with less evidence for the declining state of the system than he has now.

Good thing YOU aren't commissioner - you'd be an abject failure at it judging so far. Apparently your claim that "anyone" could have done Bettman's job does, in fact, exclude some people. :biglaugh:


At the end of the day these owners sign the cheques and it's their choice whether or not to sign off on a contract.

Ah more simplistic reasoning from the simpleton. Ten months of lockout and you still don't understand that the problem is that a few teams can or are willing to pay far more than revenues warrant and the centralized control of contracts through the union leadership ensures that the salary structure of ALL the players is set by those contracts, regardless of the status of the other owners, leading to a salary structure based on the few richest (or most willing to pay) teams rather than the league as a whole, leading to millions of dollars in the red.

You've got a lot to learn about this lockout, and that should embarrass you. It's only been going on for months, after all...


To blame the players for taking what they've been offered is ludicrous. The players have their fair share of responsibility in this CBA matter and for reasons that I think we'll all agree are obvious. However, blaming the players for taking salaries they were offered and operating under a CBA signed IN PARTNERSHIP is another faulty point in your argument.
\
Speaking of poor reading skills...

I don't blame the players for taking the contracts offered. I blame them for not recognizing the necessity in fixing it and coming to reason earlier so we didn't have to have a lockout. And now, it looks like even some of the PLAYERS agree with me. The days of you pro-Goodenow shills is coming to an end.


Now don't get me wrong here, I'm on one side - that of the FANS. I think the actions of both parties over the past year have been dispicable but that doesn't mean honesty and the good ol' art of "calling a spade, a spade", have to be thrown under the bus.

So one of these posts will you actually post some proof of the "spade" or are you simply going to spew out the same empty accusations devoid of logic or reasoning?


Bettman was bad for this game 10 years ago, is bad for this game now and will be bad for this game until he's removed.

And one of these days maybe you'll actually come up with some evidence for it!


There isn't a person with even the lowest credentials that couldn't have gotten this deal done and that should tell you all you need to know about Bettman.

Not really. Though I do admit you have more experience with "lowest credentials" than I do.


So, in the end what are you left with? A big pile of steaming **** from 1994 and a game that's been run downhill faster than a Russian race horse with a glue truck on his ass.

And if you'll look at the REAL reasons for it, rather than your empty, baseless hatred of a commissioner because he's not a "hockey guy" (in your mind), maybe one of these days you'll understand why the game ran downhill....

I'm not holding my breath, however.

:teach:
 

Crazy_Ike

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reckoning said:
Great idea Einstein. So if some rookie is on the Flyers next season and Ken Hitchcock tells him to play the trap then the kid should say "Sorry, but since my salary is tied to the entertainment value, I`m not going to do that." Then he`ll get a one-way ticket to the AHL. The players hate the trap as much as the fans do, but they`re judged on whether they win or not, and if the trap is the best way to win, then that`s what they do.

If that's the only way your simplistic mind can see how this could have an effect on the on-ice product, I doubt anything I could say to you would matter. However, in the unlikely chance you have stepped out of your PA zombie mode for a bit and swallowed some of your bitterness that the league is becoming sane, I'll try - it's possible that the players as a group will be less likely to accept defense-only systems, not individual players at the coaching level. The players have a stake in this AND a voice at the table now; I'm not sure why you think they're too stupid to USE it.


The players are paid to win; if their style is boring then it`s the league`s job to tweak the rules to make the game more exciting. That`s what the NFL and NBA did. This should be simple for you to understand, but since you have not demonstrated a great deal of intelligence lately, this may be asking too much.

Aw reckoning is getting a bit peeved that his shilling is getting exposed. How cute. :D In fact, since the players now have a voice on rule changes, it is no longer "just the league's job" to do so. Thank you for proving your point, even if you aren't clever enough to realize you did so.

:D
 

reckoning

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Crazy_Ike said:
If that's the only way your simplistic mind can see how this could have an effect on the on-ice product, I doubt anything I could say to you would matter. However, in the unlikely chance you have stepped out of your PA zombie mode for a bit and swallowed some of your bitterness that the league is becoming sane, I'll try - it's possible that the players as a group will be less likely to accept defense-only systems, not individual players at the coaching level. The players have a stake in this AND a voice at the table now; I'm not sure why you think they're too stupid to USE it.




Aw reckoning is getting a bit peeved that his shilling is getting exposed. How cute. :D In fact, since the players now have a voice on rule changes, it is no longer "just the league's job" to do so. Thank you for proving your point, even if you aren't clever enough to realize you did so.

:D


So anyone who criticizes anything Bettman or the owners do is automatically a PA shill? You remind me of those idiot ultra-conservatives who would accuse anyone opposed to the U.S. invasion of Iraq as being pro-Saddam. Things aren`t as simple as you think they are.

What voice do they have? A minority opinion on some board? Some power.

I thought I was the only one who was attacked by you but then I read the previous post. You use words like "simpleton", "buckwheat", "clueless", "too many paint chips". You really need to grow up.
 

Crazy_Ike

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reckoning said:
So anyone who criticizes anything Bettman or the owners do is automatically a PA shill?
No, the vast majority of the substance of your posting history makes you a PA shill.


You remind me of those idiot ultra-conservatives who would accuse anyone opposed to the U.S. invasion of Iraq as being pro-Saddam.

*yawn* I suppose you think throwing out some politics will distract people from the lack of quality in your posts? You couldn't be more obvious of a troller. :propeller


What voice do they have? A minority opinion on some board? Some power.

It's more than they have before. But perhaps in your simplistic world it'll always be the four players vs the five GMs/owner no matter what the issue. You couldn't be more obviously clueless.


I thought I was the only one who was attacked by you but then I read the previous post. You use words like "simpleton", "buckwheat", "clueless", "too many paint chips". You really need to grow up.

Thanks, kettle, but I'm no pot, and I'm not black.

:biglaugh:
 

IdiotsPickedMyName*

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I personaly think he should be fired. Even though he delivered a slam-dunk in the CBA his last ten years as commish should not be forgotten. Any executive that runs a $2.1 billion industry into the ground to the point where it is no longer profitable needs to be fired.
 

Crazy_Ike

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Ah, another person with baseless hate who neglects to mention how exactly Bettman is supposed to illegally stop owners from offering contracts...

How come no Bettman haters can answer one simple question? Or do you all honestly believe as whatshisname does, that Bettman could have waved his magic wand and vetoed any contract he didn't like?

So spit it out, Bettman haters - how does he stop owners from offering contracts bad for the league?

(as most knowledgable people already know, the answer is he does so through a CBA - exactly what he's doing so well right now *gasp*!)
 

futurcorerock

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hawker14 said:
they only let the US president have two terms (8 years), so 13 years with bettman has been more than enough.

away with bettman !!!
Why fix it when it ain't broke?

Even through the negotiating process this year, Bettman's done everything with the NHL to give the players every opportunity to sign a deal. He had something like 8 proposals given to the NHLPA, all of which they rejected and didn't want to even negotiate upon.

It's hard to get the NHLPA to work with you when they have no intention of doing so, and now it's apparent that their game was a waiting game from the start.

IMO, aside from the ultimatum he issued to the NHLPA right before the season was cancelled, he did a spectacular job and he got everything that he promised his bosses.
 

IdiotsPickedMyName*

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Crazy_Ike said:
Ah, another person with baseless hate who neglects to mention how exactly Bettman is supposed to illegally stop owners from offering contracts...

How come no Bettman haters can answer one simple question? Or do you all honestly believe as whatshisname does, that Bettman could have waved his magic wand and vetoed any contract he didn't like?

So spit it out, Bettman haters - how does he stop owners from offering contracts bad for the league?

(as most knowledgable people already know, the answer is he does so through a CBA - exactly what he's doing so well right now *gasp*!)

He should have implemetted a salary cap four or five years ago when they extended the last CBA before contracts went totally insane. They didna't have to extend it especially when they already knew that the last deal was a way pro-plyer one.
 

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pjbth said:
I personaly think he should be fired. Even though he delivered a slam-dunk in the CBA his last ten years as commish should not be forgotten. Any executive that runs a $2.1 billion industry into the ground to the point where it is no longer profitable needs to be fired.
That line of reasoning might apply if the executive in question had P&L responsibility and authority. In this case Bettman did not and does not. Your example is completely meaningless and a thoroughly inapplicable analogy.
 

GSC2k2*

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pjbth said:
He should have implemetted a salary cap four or five years ago when they extended the last CBA before contracts went totally insane. They didna't have to extend it especially when they already knew that the last deal was a way pro-plyer one.

That is a silly statement indeed. He could not "implement(sic) a salary cap". It has to be collectively negotiated.

The last time around, we could have perhaps gone through this, but it would have meant several bankruptcies for some brand new markets. Surely you would concede that it would not have been prudent to throw away some owners' investments?
 

BigE

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Crazy_Ike said:
Ah, another person with baseless hate who neglects to mention how exactly Bettman is supposed to illegally stop owners from offering contracts...

I'm sorry I didn't get back to this sooner... something called a life got in my way.

My comment here isn't in regards to our discussion but more to your manner of debating. Little quips and sarcastic shots implied by a point here or there are fine but the constant attacking is a little classless.

You have nothing to argue with so instead you turn to discrediting your opponents. It's a common fallacy, and practiced by many people (often unbeknownst to them). Try to refute this all you like but why would we be forced to read all your added insults if your points were good enough on their own?

What ever happened to good old fashioned debating - free of the cheapshots and all that other crap. Nobody is here to read the garbage before and after your post - they just want the middle. I'm sure you can leave out the added ******** because lets face it, you're not impressing anyone by calling another person "simple" or "stupid" or telling them to "get a brain".

You know, sometimes I find this board to be an awful lot like a hockey game. Everyone is a tough guy, warranted or not. I have a hard time believing you'd make any argument in a similar manner away from this forum. Just the same as most guys at the rink are never as tough once you've punched them a few times.

Just a word of caution; respect is given to those that show it. Practice and preach it, sport. ;)
 
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