Does anyone still think Marner is better than Matthews?

[1specter]

Not sure why this thread was needed, but hey since it's here I'll answer. No way, I don't even think Marner is better than Nylander.

 

[Mr Hockey]

Matthews can definitely fire the puck, marner is still a beauty and very dangerous in all situations

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Nope. Marner should be traded for a dman and a defensively reliable winger. Awful contract

Yeah all the big contracts for big contracts of defensemen. Point per game right wingers grow on trees anyway. Especially the elite ones. Come on for real now

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Why do we always have to knock one star down to praise the other?

I could give you real reason in a-post but i kind of like the access to the board

 

[mapleleaf979]

Not sure why this thread was needed, but hey since it's here I'll answer. No way, I don't even think Marner is better than Nylander.

Thats fair and also a great argument. Nylander at his best is just as good, imo.

Nylander is still somewhat of a lone wolf on his line though. The chemistry is moving, at times telepathic, other times very distant and different pages. Nylander is a tough player to play with. Nylander can be a pass first player some games, other times a shooter, other times a hybrid, he looks off his linemates alot and passes to his dmen alot. Marner is always pass first, his linemates all had career years, Bozak,JVR, Kadri, Tavares. That says something about Marner's IQ and vision, which i feel is higher than Nylander. Nylander has superior shooting and puck protection skills. Both are very elusive puck carriers.

 

[Mr Hockey]

Thats fair and also a great argument. Nylander at his best is just as good, imo.

Nylander is still somewhat of a lone wolf on his line though. The chemistry is moving, at times telepathic, other times very distant and different pages. Nylander is a tough player to play with. Nylander can be a pass first player some games, other times a shooter, other times a hybrid, he looks off his linemates alot and passes to his dmen alot. Marner is always pass first, his linemates all had career years, Bozak,JVR, Kadri, Tavares. That says something about Marner's IQ and vision, which i feel is higher than Nylander. Nylander has superior shooting and puck protection skills. Both are very elusive puck carriers.

slick willie ...

 

[Stephen]

Thats fair and also a great argument. Nylander at his best is just as good, imo.

Nylander is still somewhat of a lone wolf on his line though. The chemistry is moving, at times telepathic, other times very distant and different pages. Nylander is a tough player to play with. Nylander can be a pass first player some games, other times a shooter, other times a hybrid, he looks off his linemates alot and passes to his dmen alot. Marner is always pass first, his linemates all had career years, Bozak,JVR, Kadri, Tavares. That says something about Marner's IQ and vision, which i feel is higher than Nylander. Nylander has superior shooting and puck protection skills. Both are very elusive puck carriers.

Before Marner, JVR's career high in goals and points were 30 goals and 61 points before Marner, and with Marner it was 36 goals (+6) and 62 points. (+1)

Tyler Bozak's career high in goals and points 23 goals and 49 points before Marner, and with Marner, he didn't surpass his goals totals but bumped up his points totals to 55 points (+6).

John Tavares' career high in goals and points was 38 goals and 86 points before Marner, and with Marner, he scored 47 (+9) goals and 88 points (+2)

Would be interested to see from an elite playmaking point of view what Marner could do with a center like Alexander Kerfoot and an Andreas Johnsson and see if he could create his own scoring line. Let Matthews return to a pairing with Nylander and create a cycle, grind line with Tavares, Hyman, Mikheyev, etc.

 

[al secord]

I like all Leaf players equally.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Yeah all the big contracts for big contracts of defensemen. Point per game right wingers grow on trees anyway. Especially the elite ones. Come on for real now

Wut?

 

[Iapyi]

Matthews was better in their rookie seasons, and in their second seasons, he had 63 points in 62 games while Marner had 69 in 20 more games.. Last year is close, but I give the nod to Marner even though he played with Tavares while Matthews played with Johnsson and Kapanen.

Exactly. The better player is the guy who has played better not by some pre-determination.

I also go by a lot more then points in deciding who I think is the better player.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Wut?

I don’t care wut you tink is wut

 

[All Mod Cons]

I don’t care wut you tink is wut

Erm...... K

 

[93LEAFS]

Matthews has been better 3 out of 4 seasons, but Marner was better in 2018/19. This year Matthews has outplayed him.

Marner has always been the most insulated Leaf in terms of who they play him with 5 on 5. When he came in as a rookie they put him in Kessel's old spot with JVR and Bozak, then threw an $11 million center at him last year, and then promoted him to play with Matthews this year. Notice how the Leafs have never put Marner with a bottom six centerman in order to try and spark up a functional third line, or put him with guys like Kapanen and Johnsson for significant amounts of time like Matthews, or demoted him to play with Kadri and Spezza like they have with Nylander.

Fact is, Marner is not better or more dominant than Matthews and never has been but has been carefully deployed to the point where he's always in a position to succeed offensively.

It took the team 3 and 1/4 years to put Marner with our best goal scorer. Babs, played him on the 4th line at points. He was played with Bozak for a season and a half when Bozak was our 3rd best center. So between 2016 and 2018, who was the Leafs 3rd center in your opinion? Because unless its Matthews, he played with both Bozak and Kadri significantly more. He played with Kerfoot at 5v5 while Tavares was injured. The powerplay has currently been set up to play to Matthews strengths while shifting Marner to the left-side on the PP for the first time in his career. And, Kapanen and Johnsson are both better than the version of Marleau he played with in the back half of 2017-18 when he played at a 90 point pace. I mean, I get preferring Matthews, but at least present a factual argument that doesn't have glaring emissions.

I mean, Marner isn't a center. So, you can't really compare how he's deployed to Matthews.

 

[MagicalRazor]

Best player this year was nylander

 

[93LEAFS]

Before Marner, JVR's career high in goals and points were 30 goals and 61 points before Marner, and with Marner it was 36 goals (+6) and 62 points. (+1)

Tyler Bozak's career high in goals and points 23 goals and 49 points before Marner, and with Marner, he didn't surpass his goals totals but bumped up his points totals to 55 points (+6).

John Tavares' career high in goals and points was 38 goals and 86 points before Marner, and with Marner, he scored 47 (+9) goals and 88 points (+2)

Would be interested to see from an elite playmaking point of view what Marner could do with a center like Alexander Kerfoot and an Andreas Johnsson and see if he could create his own scoring line. Let Matthews return to a pairing with Nylander and create a cycle, grind line with Tavares, Hyman, Mikheyev, etc.

You want to see the disparity in PP and ES time between those seasons? He played 21 minutes a game for the first season mentioned. He played under 16 minutes for the two seasons he got time with Marner. JT has his best 5v5 numbers with Marner. JT getting moved off having the PP time for his entire time with the Leafs hurts his PP assists numbers go down because he probably touches it the 4th or 5th amount of anyone comapred to having it run with him with the Isles. Or how Babs ran the PP, in general, giving JT less PP time than he did with the Isles. I mean, Connor Brown is having a better season with average Senators players than he did when he spent significant time with Matthews and Kadri? You want to tell me that those players are better or maybe, just maybe playing 21 minutes a game is doing that?

I mean, if you want to look at what a player does by just examing raw stats have at it, but its a terrible argument.

 

[Beaumaris]

Unless Marner adds an elite shot, not happening.

I’d like to think a talented lad like Mitch,
can achieve that.

 

[BlueBaron]

Before Marner, JVR's career high in goals and points were 30 goals and 61 points before Marner, and with Marner it was 36 goals (+6) and 62 points. (+1)

Tyler Bozak's career high in goals and points 23 goals and 49 points before Marner, and with Marner, he didn't surpass his goals totals but bumped up his points totals to 55 points (+6).

John Tavares' career high in goals and points was 38 goals and 86 points before Marner, and with Marner, he scored 47 (+9) goals and 88 points (+2)

Would be interested to see from an elite playmaking point of view what Marner could do with a center like Alexander Kerfoot and an Andreas Johnsson and see if he could create his own scoring line. Let Matthews return to a pairing with Nylander and create a cycle, grind line with Tavares, Hyman, Mikheyev, etc.

1 point bump (though 6 goals), 6 point bump, 2 point bump (6 goals) could just as easily imply they cannot rely on Marner to shoot and so do so more themselves as it could that he makes them better goal scorers without impacting their total offense much. I know he is a great passer and I'm sure he is helping them but the total impact doesn't seem as big as it should.

I love Marner but those numbers are actually kind of disappointing. I would hope for more than a point or two bump.

 

[stickty111]

I’d like to think a talented lad like Mitch,
can achieve that.

Some things you have or you don't have.

 

[saffronleaf]

Easily Matthews, it's not even close.

 

[Rogue Leader]

So last summer a fair number were claiming Marner was better than Auston when the contract numbers came out. I'm curious now that Auston has had his breakout season if opinions have changed. Full disclosure I am a Matthews man.

Greedier ... ahhh, no .. you are asking if he is better. No he isn't.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Before Marner, JVR's career high in goals and points were 30 goals and 61 points before Marner, and with Marner it was 36 goals (+6) and 62 points. (+1)

Tyler Bozak's career high in goals and points 23 goals and 49 points before Marner, and with Marner, he didn't surpass his goals totals but bumped up his points totals to 55 points (+6).

John Tavares' career high in goals and points was 38 goals and 86 points before Marner, and with Marner, he scored 47 (+9) goals and 88 points (+2)

Would be interested to see from an elite playmaking point of view what Marner could do with a center like Alexander Kerfoot and an Andreas Johnsson and see if he could create his own scoring line. Let Matthews return to a pairing with Nylander and create a cycle, grind line with Tavares, Hyman, Mikheyev, etc.

You also have to take into consideration where they were playing. All three mentioned had their 'best before Marner' season on a #1 line; and did better with Marner, despite playing on the second or third line.

 

[Mats13]

There was never a debate, only delusion.

 

[Carltons Cup]

I like all Leaf players equally.

Martin Marincin is choking on his coffee right now.

 

[Superstar]

I’d like to think a talented lad like Mitch,
can achieve that.

You have to be hardworking, not just talented. His shot hasn't improved in 3 years.

 

[TheKule]

Seemed like this was only ever said by non Leafs fans. That group generally has inferior hockey knowledge.