Value of: Does 4+16 get KAKKO

[smoneil]

Okay. let me rephrase that.
Elite young talent.
You know, the only kind that really seems to matter here

Lundqvist still applies, as do players like Leetch and Zubov and a bunch of others. They've only drafted in the top 5 ONCE since the O6 era, and they traded up for that pick (1999 IIRC, where they had the misfortune to end up with Pavel Brendl at 4th OA).

 

[Groo]

Lundqvist still applies, as do players like Leetch and Zubov and a bunch of others. They've only drafted in the top 5 ONCE since the O6 era, and they traded up for that pick (1999 IIRC, where they had the misfortune to end up with Pavel Brendl at 4th OA).

What? No Wayne Gretzky

 

[smoneil]

What? No Wayne Gretzky

You said young. Gretzky was past 35 when he signed with the Rangers. I just mentioned a couple of elite young players (sticking to those drafted by the team, who were elite WHILE with the team) to make the point. Are you trolling here or what?

 

[bernmeister]

Just what do you think the Av's would have to add to go from 4th to 2nd overall?
McKinney or Mikko?

If You give up either of them to move up 2 spots you're a stone cold fool.

I think Rangers would have a hard time turning down 4th and Makar...

4+MacKinnon+Makar and you get NYR's attention

of course that is extreme and unlikely,

the point is,
a simple draft pick offer will not tempt/convince NYR to turn away from their best pick in the modern era, with a special player available

it would take a huge overpay, a Lindros-type package

"The Nordiques ... traded the power forward during the 1992 NHL Entry Draft to the Philadelphia Flyers for
Peter Forsberg (6th overall),
Mike Ricci (4th overall),
Ron Hextall (28 yr old #1 G),
Steve Duchesne (26 year old top 4 D),
Kerry Huffman (24 year old #20 overall D) ,
future considerations —which eventually became
Chris Simon (#25 overall) —
two first-round draft picks, and $15 million."

Note that is 5 1st round players, a 25th overall, PLUS a #1 G and top 4 D in their prime

And it's bonkers to think the Av's would give up Makar to move up two picks

The #2 is not on the block. Nobody is offering MacK or Makar. This is some PS4 stuff going on here.

4+16 for 2, Staal and Smith is about the only scenario that would make sense for everyone and it’s still not really in the Rangers best interests.

Crying Jordan meme is what it’s like being an Avs fan watching KK atm.

Kakko is 100% a potential franchise quality player, you're out of your mind to think otherwise.

Even then, there's zero reason for the Rangers to do this. They don't need to dump cap. They have boatloads of space and will for the next couple of seasons. They can easily add AND ride out the high contracts of older players like Staal, Smith, Shatt, and Lundqvist.

Kakko himself is likely not a generational player. But the Rangers drafting in the top 3 IS a generational event. It hasn't happened since the 1960s. They are not giving that up unless someone approaches them with an offer that is just a stupid overpayment. Not a "bad deal" kind of overpayment but a "this deal will brand the other team's GM as an idiot for the rest of his career" kind of overpayment. It's not about logic or the value of the players on the Avs or anything else. It's about what drafting that high for effectively the first time ever means to the Rangers as a franchise.

okay, since you all forced me to be the voice of reason:

1. NY is not trading 2, which is likely to be KK, extremely small chance it could be Hughes, in which case he is ours, unless VAN wants to pay huge thru the roof.
KK = franchise level quality player, maybe possible elite. Generational at this point is pushing it, but today the sky is the limit. He also is expansion draft exempt.

2. The idea that something small to move up 2 slots is flawed logic, because there is a pronounced, if not huge gap, after 1-2 slots. 3-10 are quality, but not the same, not even the same ballpark.
IF IF IF that was not such a huge gap, then maybe that type of discussion could take place, like adding to 8-10 to move up to 4-5. But again, not the case.

3. Avs will not gut their team for KK. Nor should they.

4. If a deal were done, it would be a larger package and Rangers would have to win several of the components to justify loss of 2OA.
That would be something like:

Zib + Skjei + 20A + Jets 2019 1st [20OA?]
for
MacKinnon + Makar + 4OA + Avs [presumably late] 2020 1st

something like that

 

[Spilot23]

I'd probably give up the 2nd pick if Makar and the 4th pick were offered.

But Colorado wouldn't do that

Exactly we’re trading away our needs to get a winger when we would be set with our potential #1D in Makar and potential #2C/Byram while NYR needs a star like Kakko. They got gifted with this draft might as well draft their face of the franchise. They need Kakko more than the Avs.

 

[Spilot23]

okay, since you all forced me to be the voice of reason:

1. NY is not trading 2, which is likely to be KK, extremely small chance it could be Hughes, in which case he is ours, unless VAN wants to pay huge thru the roof.
KK = franchise level quality player, maybe possible elite. Generational at this point is pushing it, but today the sky is the limit. He also is expansion draft exempt.

2. The idea that something small to move up 2 slots is flawed logic, because there is a pronounced, if not huge gap, after 1-2 slots. 3-10 are quality, but not the same, not even the same ballpark.
IF IF IF that was not such a huge gap, then maybe that type of discussion could take place, like adding to 8-10 to move up to 4-5. But again, not the case.

3. Avs will not gut their team for KK. Nor should they.

4. If a deal were done, it would be a larger package and Rangers would have to win several of the components to justify loss of 2OA.
That would be something like:

Zib + Skjei + 20A + Jets 2019 1st [20OA?]
for
MacKinnon + Makar + 4OA + Avs [presumably late] 2020 1st

something like that

So the Rangers probably contend next year and Avs go into another rebuild after being one win away from WCF. Yeah no.

 

[Groo]

okay, since you all forced me to be the voice of reason:

1. NY is not trading 2, which is likely to be KK, extremely small chance it could be Hughes, in which case he is ours, unless VAN wants to pay huge thru the roof.
KK = franchise level quality player, maybe possible elite. Generational at this point is pushing it, but today the sky is the limit. He also is expansion draft exempt.

2. The idea that something small to move up 2 slots is flawed logic, because there is a pronounced, if not huge gap, after 1-2 slots. 3-10 are quality, but not the same, not even the same ballpark.
IF IF IF that was not such a huge gap, then maybe that type of discussion could take place, like adding to 8-10 to move up to 4-5. But again, not the case.

3. Avs will not gut their team for KK. Nor should they.

4. If a deal were done, it would be a larger package and Rangers would have to win several of the components to justify loss of 2OA.
That would be something like:

Zib + Skjei + 20A + Jets 2019 1st [20OA?]
for
MacKinnon + Makar + 4OA + Avs [presumably late] 2020 1st

something like that

Don't ever stop being you

 

[Polar Bear]

Exactly we’re trading away our needs to get a winger when we would be set with our potential #1D in Makar and potential #2C/Byram while NYR needs a star like Kakko. They got gifted with this draft might as well draft their face of the franchise. They need Kakko more than the Avs.

Pretty much this. Kakko/Hughes means more to the Rangers than what Colorado would be/should give up. It's why trading the top two selections hardly ever occur, especially in a situation where both 1/2 have the chance to be elite players at their respective position.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Okay. let me rephrase that.
Elite young talent.
You know, the only kind that really seems to matter here

Lundqvist still fits the bill. But goalies are just a bit of an unknown when they are prospects and have to prove themselves first. Though he tore it up in the SEL league before coming over.

 

[SML2]

The only team that truly shod have dealt #1 pick OA in any recent years is Edmonton. They could have explored the market on any one of those picks outside McDavid and brought back a ton. In hindsight if they had done that in any of those years they are better off.

 

[bernmeister]

So the Rangers probably contend next year and Avs go into another rebuild after being one win away from WCF. Yeah no.

Yeah, deals are ideally mutually beneficial, but no side makes a deal unless there is enuf profit one way or the other to make it worthwhile.

If ya want KK, prepare to cough up somethin like what I said.
Or we're happy to just use the 2OA on him.

Don't ever stop being you

Couldn't/wouldn't.

And others tryin to change me have met their Waterloo.

Fear not, that's not happenin.

 

[bernmeister]

So the Rangers probably contend next year and Avs go into another rebuild after being one win away from WCF. Yeah no.

Yeah, deals are ideally mutually beneficial, but no side makes a deal unless there is enuf profit one way or the other to make it worthwhile.

If ya want KK, prepare to cough up somethin like what I said.
Or we're happy to just use the 2OA on him.

Don't ever stop being you

Couldn't/wouldn't.

And others tryin to change me have met their Waterloo.

Fear not, that's not happenin.

 

[Muffin]

okay, since you all forced me to be the voice of reason:

1. NY is not trading 2, which is likely to be KK, extremely small chance it could be Hughes, in which case he is ours, unless VAN wants to pay huge thru the roof.
KK = franchise level quality player, maybe possible elite. Generational at this point is pushing it, but today the sky is the limit. He also is expansion draft exempt.

2. The idea that something small to move up 2 slots is flawed logic, because there is a pronounced, if not huge gap, after 1-2 slots. 3-10 are quality, but not the same, not even the same ballpark.
IF IF IF that was not such a huge gap, then maybe that type of discussion could take place, like adding to 8-10 to move up to 4-5. But again, not the case.

3. Avs will not gut their team for KK. Nor should they.

4. If a deal were done, it would be a larger package and Rangers would have to win several of the components to justify loss of 2OA.
That would be something like:

Zib + Skjei + 20A + Jets 2019 1st [20OA?]
for
MacKinnon + Makar + 4OA + Avs [presumably late] 2020 1st

something like that

So let's assume Kakko is a franchise player and for some reason he's equal in value to MacKinnon(Protip: He's not).
Do you think
Makar + 4OA + another 1st = Zib + Skjei + 20A+Jets 1st? (Protip once again: It's not)
Where is this Kakko franchise player coming from? You'd be lucky if he becomes as good as Rantanen let alone MacKinnon. Like Avs fans were hoping to put him on the 2nd line before the lottery now all the sudden he's a franchise player?

 

[Shnooks]

Colorado should just stay where they are and take Podkolzin...they can afford to let him develop in Russia for a couple years.

And he could end up being just as good as Kakko...he could be a 35-40 goal, 80 point player.

I've seen him be compared to Vladimir Tarasenko and Rick Nash.

 

[Muffin]

Colorado should just stay where they are and take Podkolzin...they can afford to let him develop in Russia for a couple years.

And he could end up being just as good as Kakko...he could be a 35-40 goal, 80 point player.

I've seen him be compared to Vladimir Tarasenko and Rick Nash.

Colorado should stay where they are and take Turcotte, would not surprise me one bit if Podkolzin drops out of the top 10.

 

[Muffin]

Yeah, deals are ideally mutually beneficial, but no side makes a deal unless there is enuf profit one way or the other to make it worthwhile.

If ya want KK, prepare to cough up somethin like what I said.
Or we're happy to just use the 2OA on him.


Couldn't/wouldn't.

And others tryin to change me have met their Waterloo.

Fear not, that's not happenin.

If he's as good as you say why would the Devils pass on him? As good as Jack Hughes is I don't think everyone called him a franchise player?
Tips for Rangers fans, you can't expect anyone to take you seriously when you bring up MacKinnon. MacKinnon is the most untouchable player in the league right up there with McDavid especially with his contract.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

okay, since you all forced me to be the voice of reason:

1. NY is not trading 2, which is likely to be KK, extremely small chance it could be Hughes, in which case he is ours, unless VAN wants to pay huge thru the roof.
KK = franchise level quality player, maybe possible elite. Generational at this point is pushing it, but today the sky is the limit. He also is expansion draft exempt.

2. The idea that something small to move up 2 slots is flawed logic, because there is a pronounced, if not huge gap, after 1-2 slots. 3-10 are quality, but not the same, not even the same ballpark.
IF IF IF that was not such a huge gap, then maybe that type of discussion could take place, like adding to 8-10 to move up to 4-5. But again, not the case.

3. Avs will not gut their team for KK. Nor should they.

4. If a deal were done, it would be a larger package and Rangers would have to win several of the components to justify loss of 2OA.
That would be something like:

Zib + Skjei + 20A + Jets 2019 1st [20OA?]
for
MacKinnon + Makar + 4OA + Avs [presumably late] 2020 1st

something like that

the Avs wouldn't give you MacKinnon ALONE for that package let alone adding in all that other stuff.

 

[Neutrinos]

The idea of 4th + Makar is crazy. Makar for Kakko is pretty darn close to fair as-is, hard to argue either way. I'd imagine neither team does that deal.

The 2nd OV wouldn't be traded, Rangers lucked into a high pick and will look to capitalize. I'm going to be curious to see how these lottery pick players work out for their clubs going forward. Does it setback a rebuild, accelerate it, give them a chance to compete. Very interesting.

Yeah, I tend to agree

Makar + #16 for #2 seems about right to me

 

[Shootertooter]

You missed the point. Those Ranger fans here who are not willing to do Makar and a 4th for the 2nd is because they say 'we need an elite talent'. If Makar isn't then Kappo isn't either based on your games-played criteria. I doubt you'd argue Makar isn't a heck of a talent and given the positional value, the equal of Kappo THIS YEAR entering the draft.

Wouldn't you prefer Byram & Makar over Kappo on your team? At this POINT IN TIME?

I think the reason Rangers fans say no is that the Rangers seem to have a plethora of RHD's at the moment and they really need a guy who projects to be an elite forward. They shouldn't be making a trade outside of their needs. I get it, Byram and Makar would be a great tandem. I just think it outs the brakes on what they are currently doing. Personally at this moment, getting Makar makes the Rangers defensively better but they still are a bad team. They need either Hughes or Kappo.

I'm not sure as to value. Is Makar as valuable as the 2oa? Maybe. .......add the 4oa......probably but that still does not mean a trade should be made by NYR.

 

[bernmeister]

So let's assume Kakko is a franchise player and for some reason he's equal in value to MacKinnon(Protip: He's not).
Do you think
Makar + 4OA + another 1st = Zib + Skjei + 20A+Jets 1st? (Protip once again: It's not)
Where is this Kakko franchise player coming from? You'd be lucky if he becomes as good as Rantanen let alone MacKinnon. Like Avs fans were hoping to put him on the 2nd line before the lottery now all the sudden he's a franchise player?

As others already said, doesn't matter whether KK is/is not a franchise player today. He is our shot at a dominant star, a kreider comparable beast in some ways with much mo talent.

If you want him, you pay the price I said.
Anything less not worth it for NY.
If that's too much for ya, fine, we'll keep 4OA.

 

[dk2k]

*Ottawa

Different things are not the same.

 

[bernmeister]

If he's as good as you say why would the Devils pass on him? As good as Jack Hughes is I don't think everyone called him a franchise player?
Tips for Rangers fans, you can't expect anyone to take you seriously when you bring up MacKinnon. MacKinnon is the most untouchable player in the league right up there with McDavid especially with his contract.

tip for you:
if we don't upgrade Zib into MacK AND another upgrade, we won't make KK available.

 

[bernmeister]

the Avs wouldn't give you MacKinnon ALONE for that package let alone adding in all that other stuff.

see post 147.
we control that pick = kk.

you want him, it has to be a godfather deal.

 

[Shootertooter]

okay, since you all forced me to be the voice of reason:

From the guy who brought us synergy and Boo Nieves as the Rangers 1C.
Understand, only you out of the 1000's of people on this forum think that you are a voice of reason.

Couldn't/wouldn't.

And others tryin to change me have met their Waterloo.

Fear not, that's not happenin.

This quote is why people talk about you like you are the village idiot.
Maybe calm the ego down a little bit? You haven't won a discussion here.....virtually ever.

 

[Shootertooter]

tip for you:
if we don't upgrade Zib into MacK AND another upgrade, we won't make KK available.

We aren't no matter what.