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Quid Pro Clowe

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Howard's MVP isn't that undeserving...

58 HR, 149 RBI, an OPS of 1.08

Eckersley's '92 MVP, for example, really stands out much more as a truly undeserving selection
Eckersley had an insane year on a team coming off 3 straight world series appearances. Fair or not, that has an impact.

That said, no reliever should ever win the mvp (or cy).
 

Cas

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Howard's MVP isn't that undeserving...

58 HR, 149 RBI, an OPS of 1.08

Eckersley's '92 MVP, for example, really stands out much more as a truly undeserving selection

He hit a lot of home runs, but he was still a below-average defensive first baseman. Pujols was a better hitter and an excellent fielder, and was one of only three stars on a team that squeaked into the playoffs if you're one of those people who care about that sort of thing. Utley was the Phillies' MVP that year anyway.
 
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Perennial

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Eckersley had an insane year on a team coming off 3 straight world series appearances. Fair or not, that has an impact.

That said, no reliever should ever win the mvp (or cy).

As far as I know the Cy Young is awarded to the best pitcher in the league...

Why can't a reliever win the award if they are in fact the best pitcher in their league?
 

Perennial

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He hit a lot of home runs, but he was still a below-average defensive first baseman. Pujols was a better hitter and an excellent fielder, and was one of only three stars on a team that squeaked into the playoffs if you're one of those people who care about that sort of thing. Utley was the Phillies' MVP that year anyway.

I'm just saying that of all the undeserving award winners throughout history, Howard should be pretty far down on the list...
 

Cas

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As far as I know the Cy Young is awarded to the best pitcher in the league...

Why can't a reliever win the award if they are in fact the best pitcher in their league?

Relievers are almost never the best pitcher in their league. Gossage in 75 comes close, though.
 
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Cas

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Eric Gagne in 2003

Kimbrel in 2012 and 2017

Both very good pitchers. Neither were anywhere close to being the best or most valuable pitcher in the league - just too few innings, even after accounting for leverage. Prior, Kershaw, and Kluber would have had my vote in each year.
 

Perennial

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Both very good pitchers. Neither were anywhere close to being the best or most valuable pitcher in the league - just too few innings, even after accounting for leverage. Prior, Kershaw, and Kluber would have had my vote in each year.

Don't go moving the goal posts... nobody said anything about "most valuable"
 

Quid Pro Clowe

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As far as I know the Cy Young is awarded to the best pitcher in the league...

Why can't a reliever win the award if they are in fact the best pitcher in their league?
Because a guy throwing 80 innings will never be nearly as valuable as a guy throwing 200.

Relievers have their own award now.
 

Perennial

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Because a guy throwing 80 innings will never be nearly as valuable as a guy throwing 200.

Per Wikipedia...
"The Cy Young Award is given annually to the best pitchers in Major League Baseball, one each for the American League and National League."

Per Baseball-Reference...
"The Cy Young Award is given to the most outstanding pitcher in each league of Major League Baseball."

2 different sources, neither of whom mention "valuable" in the description of the award...
 

Quid Pro Clowe

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Value is factored into their definition of the best. Simply dwelling on the word value not being explicitly written in the award doesn't mean it isn't a determinant.

And a pitcher having the lowest ERA with 60 IP is hardly the 'best'.
 

Perennial

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Value is factored into their definition of the best. Simply dwelling on the word value not being explicitly written in the award doesn't mean it isn't a determinant.

And a pitcher having the lowest ERA with 60 IP is hardly the 'best'.

Can you provide evidence that indicates that value is factored in? Or is that just your assumption?
 

Cas

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Can you provide evidence that indicates that value is factored in? Or is that just your assumption?

What exactly is the difference between the best pitcher and the most valuable pitcher? I can't think of a thing and I've been doing this for twenty years.
 

Perennial

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What exactly is the difference between the best pitcher and the most valuable pitcher? I can't think of a thing and I've been doing this for twenty years.

Pitcher A could strikeout every batter he faces over 100 innings

Pitcher B could win 25 games while posting a 2.00 ERA over 250 innings

Considering Pitcher A was literally unhittable, it's fair to say he was better than Pitcher B, however, it could be argued that Pitcher B was more valuable
 

Cas

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I'm pretty sure Pitcher A breaks the statistical scales (largely because that season is impossible). It's gotta be worth about 10-12 wins, though, which is likely more than Pitcher B anyway.

In reality, Pitcher A should be pitching more innings and then this wouldn't be a question anyway.

Outside of a weird hypothetical I don't see a difference between the two. The best pitcher in the game is the most valuable pitcher in the game and this is little more than a semantical argument.
 
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Perennial

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I'm pretty sure Pitcher A breaks the statistical scales (largely because that season is impossible). It's gotta be worth about 10-12 wins, though, which is likely more than Pitcher B anyway.

In reality, Pitcher A should be pitching more innings and then this wouldn't be a question anyway.

Outside of a weird hypothetical I don't see a difference between the two. The best pitcher in the game is the most valuable pitcher in the game and this is little more than a semantical argument.

You may not like the fact that there is a difference between "best" and "most valuable", but there is...

You know the NHL has an MVP award and a Most Outstanding Player award, right?
 

Cas

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You may not like the fact that there is a difference between "best" and "most valuable", but there is...

You know the NHL has an MVP award and a Most Outstanding Player award, right?

I've been watching hockey for a year, so I'm not exactly up on its awards.

In any case, you could take your extreme example and make it more extreme. A pitcher who strikes out every batter on three pitches is probably the "best" pitcher, in terms of pure skill, but if he only pitches one inning a week, it doesn't much matter. Being capable of pitching a starter's workload is a skill, too.

Either way, this is a semantical argument. I would not have voted for Gagne or Kimbrel had I a Cy Young vote. I'm not sure I'd have voted for any relief pitcher of my lifetime.
 

N o o d l e s

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I feel bad for most of the rest of the NL West (not you, Giants). The Dodgers are basically the 90's Braves all over again at this point.

It's been ending the same way for them, too. At least the Braves got a W.S. If the Dodgers manage to somehow not, it would be shocking.
 

Quid Pro Clowe

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Can you provide evidence that indicates that value is factored in? Or is that just your assumption?
Can you prove they vote based on the strict letter of the law you keep presenting?

I bet you would say Eric Gagne in '03 had a better season than Pedro Martinez in '00.
 

Perennial

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Can you prove they vote based on the strict letter of the law you keep presenting?

I bet you would say Eric Gagne in '03 had a better season than Pedro Martinez in '00.

I would think the proof is that closers have won the Cy Young award...
 

TheMoreYouKnow

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If you're the best pitcher, but you can only do it 1 inning at a time, you aren't the best pitcher. Simple logic. There's a reason SP prospects get downgraded to RP prospects..not the other way around.
 

Voight

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It's been ending the same way for them, too. At least the Braves got a W.S. If the Dodgers manage to somehow not, it would be shocking.

At least we'd have a killer 2 part 30 for 30 in 10 years :naughty:

Kershaw has had multiple good postseason series, including in critical moments. Heck, two of his three appearances in 2017 against the cheating Astros were excellent - its just the Dodgers couldn't score in the last of the three.

What you're saying sounds a lot like what they used to say about Randy Johnson, before the 2001 postseason anyway. Good pitchers are good pitchers.

Gee, I wonder why :sarcasm:

Johnson is a good example, hell he was almost 40 when he finally broke through and won it all (while delivering a heckuva performance)
 
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