Do You View This Team as a Legitimate Cup Contender?

Do you consider the Blues Cup contenders for the upcoming season?


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    155

Ranksu

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I think there is an argument to be made that we try to block too many shots. Binner's strength is his first save ability and his biggest weakness is rebound control. I'd like to see more emphasis on boxing guys out and less emphasis on blocking shots.
In this quote lies really major problem in our d-core. Inability to keep front of net clear, box out or take away opposite team player stick away.

With Krug, Dunn and Faulk in our active roster they are so much in trouble vs heavier teams (Avs, Vegas) Even Wild forwards who aren't 'biggest' expose our front of net area.

It saddening to watch nowadays we are so soft team defensively. Need more fatherish style in front of net.
 

MilesNewton

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Jul 7, 2019
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Something else i want to say. This Blues defense right now doesn't leave much to the imagination. Krug, Faulk, Dunn they can't play defense, well ok Faulk can but still not good. If Binny doesn't round into form then prepare for a lot of goals against. Or watch Binny stand on his head cause his defenceman can't play any defense. Neither scenario looks pretty. OOF!!!!
I think Krug is having trouble adjusting somewhat like Faulk did last year. Its alot of money tied up in two players any thought they might move one of the current defensemen at the deadline?
 

MilesNewton

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Jul 7, 2019
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The blue line is barely recognizable to the one from 2019 and (IMO) that group was the backbone of the team. It was built around big, mobile defenders whose biggest assets were their reach and ability to force/keep players to the outside while effectively clogging passing lanes.

Faulk is 3 inches shorter than Petro. Scandella is listed as 1 inch shorter than Bouw, but Bouw used that long-ass stick and his reach was a lot longer than Scandella's. Krug is 7 inches shorter than Eddy. Gunnar is 5 inches taller than Krug if that is the comparison you want to use for the other top 4 LD from 2019. That is about a foot of size that has been lost on the blue line before you even start to consider the fact that our 6'6" gentle giant is on IR. Faulk and Krug both excel at a chase/pressure the puck carrier style that is a hell of a lot different than what our 2019 blue line excelled at.

Our current lineup has just 2 of the 7 D men who played minutes for us in the 2019 playoffs. Those two guys were 5th and 7th in both TOI and TOI per game. The current blue line is drastically different. I'd argue that it has gotten substantially worse at defending, which is a big chunk of our issues. I think getting Parayko back would help a lot, but that doesn't change the reality of where we are currently at.

Up front, we don't have significant changes but they are pretty much universally losses to defensive guys. Steen, Sunny, Barby and Bozak were 1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th in PK minutes on the Cup run. ROR was #2 and no other forward played more than 3 total minutes on the PK throughout the playoffs. Steen is gone, Barby has been out since mid-February and we have had exactly 1 full game with both Sunny/Bozak in the lineup since the Stone hit on Bozak. Additions to the lineup are guys that aren't very strong defensively. Kyrou and Hoffman are very skilled and their offensive ability is undeniably better. But they aren't filling defensive voids left from these players' absence.

The defensive core of this team is dramatically worse than the 2019 playoff team. We are relying on Sanford and Schenn to do way more heavy lifting defensively than they did before. Neither of them are poor defenders, but they aren't top end either. We are relying on Mac, DLR, Schwartz and Clifford to play not-insignificant PK minutes, which is a downgrade from our killers in 2019.

The lineup is substantially worse defensively and the underlying numbers reflect that. We're about average in most 5 on 5 defensive metrics, have one of the worst PKs in the league and the combination of those things means we are 24th in goals against per game.
All good points but I get the size thing but if they can't even move the puck out of their end you could be 6-5 225 and it wouldn't matter. Enough PP opportunities where they are not scoring. Maybe just a general reset and bench a few guys might send a message-
 

Celtic Note

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Yeah, shame on those 41 members that they didn't know we would have a tsunami of injuries.
In all fairness, I think the question is worthwhile. Do those who voted yes still hold that view? Have those who were undecided swayed one way or the other? Have those who said no been swayed by Montreal’s unforeseen “contention” and therefore believe the Blues could be contenders?

These all seem like valid questions and I would assume there are other good questions as well.
 
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sfvega

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Apr 20, 2015
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I didn't think they were Cup contenders to start the year, and I don't think they're Cup contenders now. But I do feel like we're devolving into tribalism with the people who think we aren't contenders trying to paint the team as trash, and the people who think are contenders shouting down any criticism as if it has any effect on the ice one way or the other.
 

Bluesnatic27

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Aug 5, 2011
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I am more firmly in the we are not contenders camp as currently constructed, even more so than I was at the time of the initial vote. We will need an incredible offseason to change that view.
Agreed, and frankly, these talks of moving on from Schwartz, Tarasenko, and Dunn is only solidifying my stance of the Blues not being a contender. I can understand the merits people put forward as to why they think moving on from these guys would be beneficial. The issue I have is that moving on from these guys is what direction the team would go if it were done.

Schwartz is coming off of a fairly bad season and has been injury prone on the past. I understand the line of thought that giving him a long term deal or an expensive contract would be risky. But despite his struggles last year, he was still one of the best 5-on-5 players the Blues had. He ranked among the tops on the team with expected goal values, high-danger chances, and shot attempt differentials. Frankly, I think Schwartz is behind only O'Reilly when it comes to impact on 5-on-5 play. For a Blues team that just didn't play well in that regard, moving on from Schwartz would be a huge misstep unless a better Schwartz came along. Completely possible, but players that are better than Schwartz are not readily available without paying a pretty high price to acquire them.

Moving on from Tarasenko also has its merits, but at this point, the only value he would bring would be cap space. Some might say that's enough, but having cap space is only as valuable as what a team will use the cap space on. Tarasenko is a large question mark for the foreseeable future, so having a more consistency playing player would easily be more valuable than that. But again, for a team like the Blues, that player would need to boost the 5-on-5 play while also fitting into the top-6. That last part needs to be specified in my mind because for a team to think of itself as a Cup contender, relying on potential from a guy like Kyrou or anyone else at this stage is far too risky for that venture. With the contracts of O'Reilly and Parayko looming over the Blues for the necxt few years, there isn't much time left before the window shuts completely. Albeit, moving from Tarasenko is the easiest pill to swallow for me given his reoccurring injury and prolonged absence from the team without large consequences on the overall play of the team.

With Dunn, again, the merits make sense in that he seems superfluous with Krug on the team and Perunovich in the wings. But truthfully, I don't think Krug is going to get any better. I was never disappointed in Krug from this past season because what I saw from him this past season is what I saw from him while he was in Boston. He's great when he has the room to work but suffers when that space is taken away from him. There is value in his PP work, but he really doesn't help the main issue that plagues the team and costs quite a bit for it. As for Pernuovich, I think relying on him to help the team in the short term is misguided. He hasn't played at a professional level yet and will take development time even if he were thrown into the NHL as soon as next season. That's not good for a team that wishes to be a Cup contender right now. To add, if the Blues do move on from Dunn, then he would be replaced with a less talented player unless the Blues try to score big with Hamilton. But a move for Hamilton, or someone of that ilk, would most likely effect the position of one of Krug, Faulk, and Parayko, i.e. the big dogs of the defense right now. I totally understand moving on from Dunn, but I think the consequences of a move wouldn't be as forgiving as many see it right now. It would require multiple players stepping up in the defensive cores to forgive the loss, I think.

I guess the point of this post was more highlighting that there are ingrained problems with the Blues right now that just simply moving players might not fix. I still vehemently think that moving on from Schwartz is a dumb idea. The only way it makes sense is due to the cap crunch the Blues will find themselves in for the future given how many players are signed until the year 2026. Tarasenko makes sense from a cap perspective, but that cap needs to be used well in order for the cap savings to help. For a team that wishes to continue being a Cup contender, having cap space is not inherently helpful at this point in time. As for Dunn, I guess there really aren't many reasons not to move on from him. But I don't think the reasons to move on from him help the team much. With the timetable of being a Cup contender looming over the Blues, the offseason needed to put this team in the best position to win would have to be pretty darn grand.
 

Celtic Note

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I didn't think they were Cup contenders to start the year, and I don't think they're Cup contenders now. But I do feel like we're devolving into tribalism with the people who think we aren't contenders trying to paint the team as trash, and the people who think are contenders shouting down any criticism as if it has any effect on the ice one way or the other.
The Blues are still a competitive team. I could see them making the playoffs again. I am not sure where the “trash” comment comes from. But, I don’t believe they are contenders. Could we get on a hot streak and head to the Cup? Possibly, but the probability is on the downswing and without significant retooling I am not sure how much probability exists. Personally, I would see a hot streak more probable if we had a better defensive team. But, our backend has gotten porous and our forward group lacks tenacity, defensive positioning and a sound backcheck.
 

Beauterham

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Aug 19, 2018
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The Blues are still a competitive team. I could see them making the playoffs again. I am not sure where the “trash” comment comes from. But, I don’t believe they are contenders. Could we get on a hot streak and head to the Cup? Possibly, but the probability is on the downswing and without significant retooling I am not sure how much probability exists. Personally, I would see a hot streak more probable if we had a better defensive team. But, our backend has gotten porous and our forward group lacks tenacity, defensive positioning and a sound backcheck.

We're not going to be a top 3 team next season, we were also not a top 3 team this year. Saying that, Montreal wasn't a top 3 team this season either. So even if you're not one of the top contenders, that doesn't mean you don't have a chance winning the cup.

If we adequately replace the players we will lose this summer we will still be a playoff team and in the playoffs anything could happen. There isn't a sport in the world like hockey where the difference between the good teams and the bad teams is so small. A couple of injuries, players that aren't 100% fit or the opponents goalie going into beastmode can easily cause the lesser team to advance (for example the Blue Jackets sweeping the lightning in 2019).
 

Celtic Note

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We're not going to be a top 3 team next season, we were also not a top 3 team this year. Saying that, Montreal wasn't a top 3 team this season either. So even if you're not one of the top contenders, that doesn't mean you don't have a chance winning the cup.

If we adequately replace the players we will lose this summer we will still be a playoff team and in the playoffs anything could happen. There isn't a sport in the world like hockey where the difference between the good teams and the bad teams is so small. A couple of injuries, players that aren't 100% fit or the opponents goalie going into beastmode can easily cause the lesser team to advance (for example the Blue Jackets sweeping the lightning in 2019).
I am not sure if Montreal makes it to the Cup Final if not for the temporary divisional realignments. But I guess that illustrates the point made here. If everything falls right into place maybe you can win.

The problem is Montreal still isn’t likely to win.

Columbus beat Tampa, but what happened after that?

By all accounts (in my opinion) the only team in the past (dating back to the 90’s) that seemed to Cinderella its way to a Cup victory despite its talent was the Carolina Hurricanes. But, they were second place in the eastern conference that year, so even that seems a bit disingenuous. You can point to the Kings, but we all know how good they were and how dialed in they could be with the use of hindsight.
 

Frenzy31

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I think this team is a bit stuck. We could do a retool, but I don’t see any pieces available that gets me excited. Sorry not interested in Hall.

Unless we are some how able to take some of the pieces we get from Trading Tarasenko and adding them to our first to get Walt jr. And I am not even sure I do that, Jr. has Calgary by the short hairs with his contract.

I think we may need a reboot. Kind of what we did when drafting with Schwartz and Tarasenkoe, After getting a core of EJ, Backes, Oshie, Perron, and Berglund.

We have ROR and Schenn and Perron, but really need Thomas (we saw flashes at the end of the season) and Kyrou to show up next season along with Kostin.

I am for a down year next season getting a couple of solid 1st rounders and then adding via free agency next summer. Yeah, I know about the aging Core, but….
 

Ranksu

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I hate concept you need to get more cap space if you first acquire players who take almost ~17mill.$ (Krug, Faulk and Scandella)

Put guys like Schwartz and Tarasenko expendable. :facepalm:

Or even lose Schwartz for nothing.

Even trade Hoffman at TDL. Note how much Hall get at TDL and Hoffman out produce Hall. Small details, but those all add up when you build your team.

3 good game under TDL decided we weren't sellers. Absolutely joke.
 

Ranksu

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I didn't think they were Cup contenders to start the year, and I don't think they're Cup contenders now. But I do feel like we're devolving into tribalism with the people who think we aren't contenders trying to paint the team as trash, and the people who think are contenders shouting down any criticism as if it has any effect on the ice one way or the other.
No, but should we look in the mirror closely? Are we pretenders? Or Contenders?
 

Beauterham

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Aug 19, 2018
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Oh so our bad performance was just reason of injuries.

You forgot covid too.


I do, I do think it was a BIG part in why we didn't play as good as we hoped. You can't expect a team to have a ton of injuries and not see any consequences in results due to that. Only Chicago had more missed manhours due to injury then us. I'm not saying we would've won the Presidents throphy in regular season if everyone stayed fit (lets be honest, the Avs and Vegas have a better roster) but I do believe our results would definitely be a lot better then they were. And even then, we probably would've had to play Vegas in the playoffs and easily could've gone out in round 1. Getting sweeped by the Avs sucked, but wasn't really a huge surprise if you see who were injured while we also had a couple of (important) players playing through injury. I believe it was game 3 where we had both Santini and Reinke in our starting roster, that kinda says it all.

After we won that stretch of 3 games shortly before the trade deadline we were on a fasttrack to secure a playoff berth. We weren't one of the top contenders so it's logical we didn't spend futures for a rental however it's also logical we didn't sell players (Hoffman?) for picks/prospects. The team probably had hoped it would become fit again (*disclaimer: it did not) and start the playoffs as an underdog like we did in 18/19. And besides that, there's also a business aspect to this, Covid has been bleeding teams dry and the playoffs was probably looked at as a way to regain some financial health. More ticket income, TV revenue, higher merchandise sales, food/drinks, etc. What signal would the Blues send to the fans, who the team was hoping they'd buy expensive playoff tickets, if they went into selling mode? The Habs had an even worse regular season than us and were the last team (pointwise) to secure a playoff berth. As they had (and have) a worse regular season record than us, should they've gone in selling mode too at the trade deadline? (Actually they even acquired some players Staal, Merrill, Gustafsson).

About Covid, you were sarcastic, but I'm going to adress it anyway. No I don't think our 2020/2021 got hit exponentially hard due to Covid compared to other teams. We lost a couple of players in quarantine and some others weren't at a 100% due to Covid, but every other team probably had the same problems as us. If we're talking about Covid, Vancouver is the team that has been hit the hardest. However, I do believe Covid did hit us hard in the 2019/2020 playoffs. It did suck to lose Perron in the last playoffs though, imagine the Avs losing Rantanen the entire series or something like that. You're not going to lose a series all due to that, but it does count up.

For next season, it all depends on what our UFA's are going to do, which UFA's we're going to sign, what trades Army will make, who are we going to lose to Seattle... We're probably still a playoff team as it stands now and as it was reported that Stillman is still willing to pay up to the salarycap, I expect the team to improve next season as we're probably one of the few teams that will have the opportunity to weaponize our capspace. I don't expect us to become one of the prime contenders next season (neither was Montreal this season, or the Islanders for that part), but I do believe it isn't out of the realm of opportunity we will return to being in the top 10. Also look at teams in the Central next season, The Avs are probably still better, but are we really that far away from the Wild or the Jets? Remember, Vegas isn't going to be in our division next season.
 
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BlueKnight

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Apr 19, 2015
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I still don't view the Blues being a contender but that could change depends on what happens during the drafts and stuff. I also feel we are heading towards to becoming a Sharks or Minnesota Wild because Armstrong is so damn stubborn and can't get his head out of where the sun don't shine.
 

TruBlu

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Feb 7, 2016
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DA is a master at keeping this team competitive. He's been able to do that because he doesn't overpay for talent. We can probably squeeze a couple more seasons out of this core before having to do a rebuild. That being said, we are on the downhill slope as of last season. Our farm is bare and our core is aging. We are getting ready to enter early 2000 level of play if this isn't played properly. My guess is that DA is looking at about 2 more years of competitive player before he starts dropping cap and stocking up on draft picks. We'll probably see some 3-4 year contracts handed out this offseason, but the days of looking for ROR type deals are over unless there is a deal to be made.
 

Stupendous Yappi

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I still don't view the Blues being a contender but that could change depends on what happens during the drafts and stuff. I also feel we are heading towards to becoming a Sharks or Minnesota Wild because Armstrong is so damn stubborn and can't get his head out of where the sun don't shine.
There is a vast difference between the Sharks and the Wild. Assuming they don't lose Kaprizov to the KHL, which seems unlikely, they just had a hell of a season and could have won that series with Vegas. I'm not sure that Minnesota has such a dismal outlook for next year.
 
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bluesXwinXtheXcup

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Apr 14, 2018
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EVERY year we are legitimate contenders IMHO.

We were in last place (in the league) in January and still won it all.

I will never count us out before or during a season.
 
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Ranksu

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EVERY year we are legitimate contenders IMHO.

We were in last place (in the league) in January and still won it all.

I will never count us out before or during a season.
What were odds us winning Cup after winning Stanley Cup offseason? Vs what it was last season?

I give you hint: another offseason we were top3 odds to win a Cup before season started.
 

sfvega

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Apr 20, 2015
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I didn't think they were Cup contenders to start the year, and I don't think they're Cup contenders now. But I do feel like we're devolving into tribalism with the people who think we aren't contenders trying to paint the team as trash, and the people who think are contenders shouting down any criticism as if it has any effect on the ice one way or the other.

No, but should we look in the mirror closely? Are we pretenders? Or Contenders?

I already answered that.
 

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