Do you need "guys you can't win with" to win the Stanley Cup now?

[tom_servo]

Really, these are just guys who escaped toxic media environments.

Schultz is the only real reclamation story. The others were traded out of team circumstance (Kessel) or for God knows why (Subban).

 

[unknown33]

It just further enforces that labels and narratives build around players are often just ********.
After a player has a reputation it will stick to him by using cherrypicking and confirmation bias until he wins a cup regardless of circumstances.

I don't think people will learn though sadly.

 

[broinwhyteridge]

Chris Thorburn is available cheap.

 

[madinsomniac]

Twas said about Don Shula the football coach that he could take his players and beat yours or take yours and beat his...

Few coaches can adapt their systems and strategies to fit the talent they have... they often blame players not suited for what they are asking for the failures... when you see a guy having success elsewhere after getting dumped on ... he likely was misused

 

[BlueBaron]

No it's just that "can't win with Player X" is just something people say when they simply don't like the cut of someone's jib and can't form an actual argument.

This.

Just because some idiot says "You can't win with him" does not mean a lot. The reality is all teams are built differently and player X might not be the fit on team Y that he is on team Z.

Kessel is a great example. Many of our dimmer fans said you could never win with him but the reality is you cannot win with a team built around a winger. It was not Kessel's fault he was put in the wrong role.

 

[MakeTheGoalsLarger]

I don't see the argument about Subban and Kessel here. They both played well or even really well at times in the playoffs.

Subban was by far the best defenseman on his team , now he's arguably the 3rd and some even say the 4th best on his team. Kessel went from being by far the best forward on his team to being now the 3rd best forward on his team.

So players enjoy more success when they play with a better team. What's so suprising here?

 

[Steven1562]

I think Kessel and Schultz were just put into the wrong role. They weren't guys you can't win with just guys playing the wrong role. Kessel is gonna score goals and help your powerplay. He's not gonna be a two way center that battles in the corner. Leafs tried building around him and it didn't work. Pittsburgh just let him do his thing. Same with Schultz they just gave him a simple role and didn't expect him to be a stud #1 defenseman.

 

[Mikeshane]

Those are pretty unique situations though, usually you expect guys making Kessel and Subban money to be leaders, but in their current situations they only have to do their role and don't have very high expectations on them.

There is almost no one that you can't win with if their role is small enough and the team is good enough.

 

[CertifiedLurker]

I think Kessel and Schultz were just put into the wrong role. They weren't guys you can't win with just guys playing the wrong role. Kessel is gonna score goals and help your powerplay. He's not gonna be a two way center that battles in the corner. Leafs tried building around him and it didn't work. Pittsburgh just let him do his thing. Same with Schultz they just gave him a simple role and didn't expect him to be a stud #1 defenseman.

This is so tired and played out. It has ziltch to do with building around a winger. Build around whoever the heck you want, but when you build your team with your second best player being Joffrey Lupul, your team is garbage. Winning teams tend to have more than one elite player. That's just being bad at assembling a team. Kessel was a good piece, the way we acquired him was stupid since we had nothing else.

 

[Peat]

"Guys you can't win with" tend to be available cheap. You don't build a strong roster without getting good value on your trade.

In that sense... yes, I think you need other teams' misfits to win the SC.

 

[Shareefruck]

Does it count if the guy that you can't win with is straight up awful in any context? For example, I think that you can't win with Lucas Sbisa logging meaningful minutes.

 

[missinthejets]

No it's just that "can't win with Player X" is just something people say when they simply don't like the cut of someone's jib and can't form an actual argument.

I believe it's more along the lines of "can't win with player X as your best player" which in the case of Kessel and Schultz is absolutely true. Lots of guys are much better off being the supporting players as opposed to being expected to lead the whole thing.

 

[Riptide]

Exactly. It's easy to build a reputation in this league, but it seems virtually impossible to shake out of it once you are labeled.

The Canadian media is largely to blame for most of this, though in Subban's case it is squarely his former teammates and the organization that gets most of the blame there.

Reputation is also why Evgeni Malkin was not on the top 100 players of all time, which is an absolute joke.

It's also why he might not win the Conn Smythe trophy, or why Phil did not win last year. Reputations.

Sypher04 posted this in another thread (thanks). I think it says all that's needed to be said as to why Kessel did not get the Conn Smythe and why Crosby (rightfully) did.

Kessel DID lead in goals and points, by 3 (22 to Sid's 19). This is true.

Crosby had 4 assists in the SCF including 2 in game 7 and one on the cup clinching goal. No, he didn't score in the finals, but Phil only had 1 (and 3 assists) himself in the finals. Not exactly much of a discrepancy (and yes, maybe predictably, I'm gonna say it, against weaker competition).

Every year, we're told it's what you do in the third and fourth rounds that truly matter for CS. Well, I already mentioned what Sid had in the SCF. In the ECF, he had 3 goals and 2 assists in 7 games vs the Lightning. Kessel had 4 goals and 2 assists. So, in the last 2 rounds, Kessel outproduced Crosby by a single point. Nevermind that Crosby also scored 3 of the 4 game winning goals in that ECF.

 

[Riptide]

It's more about putting players in the right roles. Pittsburgh has done a great job with Schultz and Kessel and putting them in situations they can succeed in. But if these guys are seen as your core guys, you're likely not going very far into the playoffs. That was the problem in Toronto and Edmonton.

Kessel is a core player in Pittsburgh, and has been since the moment he was acquired.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Sports journalists should be hunted for sport, but that'd be cruel to the hounds.

So, basically if you're relying on the talking heads to give you the run down on what you need to win, keep in mind that they're mostly always wrong, and when they're right, it's usually because the answer's so blindingly obvious that even Kypreos or Rossi can figure it out.

 

[Steven1562]

This is so tired and played out. It has ziltch to do with building around a winger. Build around whoever the heck you want, but when you build your team with your second best player being Joffrey Lupul, your team is garbage. Winning teams tend to have more than one elite player. That's just being bad at assembling a team. Kessel was a good piece, the way we acquired him was stupid since we had nothing else.

Which is exactly my point. Leafs tried building around Kessel as the best player when he's clearly more suited for a more complimentary role. Good piece or not if Kessel is your best player your not winning much. Pittsburgh has him playing in a good role and now he's flourishing.

 

[ToastedFlower*]

Kessel, Subban and Schultz are all in the finals playing key roles shortly after being trade for a discounted price for picking up "guys you can't win with" style reputations in one form or another. Is this sort of like the entry level contract of the trade market now? Target skilled players who are being blamed for the lack of success of an entire team probably largely due to the media just liking that sort of storyline. Obviously that's going to be a hit or miss strategy but you can't really deny all these guys seem to have just flipped a switch and became winners immediately on arrival with their new teams. I'm not really saying the trades were bad for the struggling teams trading them away but should a contender like Chicago look at someone like Evander Kane as a way to potentially add alot of skill for a relatively low price as a way to get back on top?

Kessel was never a franchise player even though TO thought he was for 7 years.
Subban is a norris trophy winner, enough said.
Schultz was a arrogant kid coming into the league and got a major attitude change when he was trade and wasn't being asked to play top pairing minutes. Now he thrives in a run and gun system that caters to his style of play.
Now if Ovi gets traded and wins we could potentially start up a discussion as he's choked 3 times agains crosby in the second round 09,16,17.

 

[BraveCanadian]

You can win with Kessel and Schultz when they aren't required to be the best Forward / Dman on the team.

This is correct.

You'd never win a cup with Kessel as your best player.