Do you consider Karlsson and Doughty top 100 players of all time?

Discussion in 'Polls - (hockey-related only)' started by slapKing, Jun 2, 2021.

?

what do you think?

Poll closed Jun 14, 2021.
  1. Yes to both

    20.8%
  2. Only for Karlsson

    41.1%
  3. Only for Doughty

    6.5%
  4. No to both

    31.5%
  1. slapKing Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2020
    Messages:
    425
    Likes Received:
    474
    Trophy Points:
    49
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    Simple question, do you guys consider EK and Doughty both 100 players of all time? Both guys are in their 30's, so they been around. Is it likely for them to add substantial accomplishments to their careers? Hard to say? probably not, but you never know. but man, both guys were great in their 20's. some notable accomplishments

    Karlsson:
    - 625 pts in 788 games
    - 2 norris wins +2 runner ups
    - lead the league in assists
    - top 5 scoring finish
    - 4 times hit 70+ points, peaking at 82
    - 4 times lead of dman in scoring
    - 4 1st team all stars
    - Olympic best dman (2014)

    Doughty:
    - 536 pts in 975 games
    - 1 norris wins + 2 runner ups
    - 3 times hit 50+ points, peaking at 60
    - #1 dman for 2 stanley cup championships
    - #1 dman for an olympic gold medal winning team (2014)
    - 2 1st team all stars + 2 2nd all stars
     
  2. The Moose is Loose Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2017
    Messages:
    7,977
    Likes Received:
    5,483
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Occupation:
    Med Student
    Location:
    St.Louis
    Only Karlsson imo, and even thats tough to say because its looking like his peak will be pretty short
     
  3. Plural Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    33,273
    Likes Received:
    4,069
    Trophy Points:
    187
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Hmm...that's a difficult question. They both played on a level that warrants a comparison to legitimate top-100 guys. I would have to think about it hard and hard... @bobholly39 is probably the most keen and able to answer this. How do Karlsson and Doughty (two drastically different players and equally different career arcs) compare and slot in top-100 list? I'm thinking I'd like to see Karlsson and Doughty both, nearning the tail end of a such list.
     
    slapKing likes this.
  4. The Wahligator Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,478
    Likes Received:
    1,891
    Trophy Points:
    126
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Long Island
    Peak Karlsson is quite comfortably a top 100 player all time. Said peak was also very short lived though so its a difficult question. Voted only Karlsson.
     
    slapKing likes this.
  5. CasusBelli Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    7,808
    Likes Received:
    5,756
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Occupation:
    Finance
    Let’s look at this simplistically: if there are six defensemen in a roster of 20, then 30 of the top 100 players of all time should be defensemen. Phrased differently: can we think of 30 defensemen better than either of these two? Let’s take out some other defenders that (at least in my mind) are superior to either:
    1. Orr
    2. Lidstrom
    3. Pronger
    4. Bourque
    5. MacInnis
    6. Shore
    7. Harvey
    8. Chara
    9. Blake
    10. Park
    11. Zubov
    12. Housley
    13. Stevens
    14. Leetch
    15. Coffey
    16. Potvin
    17. Robinson
    18. Chelios

    This leaves us with 12 more players. Can you name them? There’s no right / wrong answer — just a (hopefully helpful) framework to approach it.

    FWIW: I think Karlsson is comfortably in the top 100. Not sold on Doughty.
     
  6. 95snipes Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2019
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    180
    Trophy Points:
    36
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Idk since ranking players before say 1990 to today seems borderline useless to me. There's no way you will ever convince me that someone that played in the 1950's is better than either of these two.

    I do know that since the '05 lockout, they are two of the best with Pronger, Lidstrom, and possibly Chara as the only guys I'd consider taking over them if I was trying to build a cup winner.
     
  7. Plural Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    33,273
    Likes Received:
    4,069
    Trophy Points:
    187
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    How do you feel about Ali? Is it proper to rank him against Floyd?
     
  8. Thenameless Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,610
    Likes Received:
    1,555
    Trophy Points:
    109
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Not sure, I'd have to see who the consensus d-men are in the 90-110 range.

    Between these two specifically, it's a really hard one for me. I love both guys. Karlsson is the more dynamic and exciting offensive force who can be more of a game changer, so Ottawa was a good fit for him even though he didn't win a Cup. Doughty, on the other hand, is more my cup of tea as far as d-men go. Very responsible in his own end, with a physical edge and a bit of a mean streak. The perfect corner stone for a Cup team.

    I'm not sure Doughty would have done better than Karlsson in Ottawa, and I'm almost certain Karlsson wouldn't have made LA any better (they did win two Cups).

    Toss a coin; I'd be very happy with either one.
     
    slapKing likes this.
  9. ThatsSoSlavin Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2018
    Messages:
    674
    Likes Received:
    468
    Trophy Points:
    49
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Has boxing come as far as hockey? If anything it’s dipped
     
  10. Thenameless Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,610
    Likes Received:
    1,555
    Trophy Points:
    109
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    I like the logic and thoughtful process put into this. But I think there's one small hole to be poked into the argument. Generally, the most talented skaters growing up tend to become forwards (especially centers), so I would expect there to be an inordinately high number of forwards in the top 100 as compared to a standard team composition. A 500 goal scorer who is really bad at defense is more likely to make the Top 100 than an exceptional defensive defenseman who gets 20-30 points a year.
     
    CasusBelli likes this.
  11. Kaner9 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,239
    Likes Received:
    668
    Trophy Points:
    84
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NJ
    Yep especially EK. That's the top 2 defencemen for this generation.
     
  12. Thenameless Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,610
    Likes Received:
    1,555
    Trophy Points:
    109
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Yes, Ali still above Floyd even with Floyd's "0". For me, it was the Golden Age of Heavyweights. The other big factor (and I understand the argument works against him as well) is his ability to avenge a loss. A guy who beat you (unless you were really young, and he was in his prime) will have the psychological upper hand in your next fight together. And the third argument is Ali fought the best when they were at their best. Floyd is well known to duck the most dangerous fighters in his weight class when they are at the peak of their powers, unlike his peers from the prior era (Duran, Leonard, Hagler, and Hearns) who were basically chomping at the bit to see who the best among them was.
     
  13. jetsforever Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2013
    Messages:
    21,352
    Likes Received:
    13,992
    Trophy Points:
    176
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Kinda tricky to answer without making a full list
    Off the top of my head, I'll say just Karlsson
     
    93LEAFS likes this.
  14. Boreal01 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,306
    Likes Received:
    120
    Trophy Points:
    81
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Yes to both although they're just barely squeezing in
     
    generalshepherd141 and slapKing like this.
  15. Raccoon Jesus President of Vilardi Fan Club

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    47,557
    Likes Received:
    26,762
    Trophy Points:
    206
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Real Estate
    Location:
    I.E.
    I don't think you can have one without the other, honestly, unless something drastic happens in the next 5 years.
     
    slapKing likes this.
  16. 93LEAFS Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2009
    Messages:
    29,891
    Likes Received:
    15,076
    Trophy Points:
    217
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Toronto
    80 to 120 for both most likely, but I'm way too lazy to make the list required to figure out the answer. I wouldn't say anyone was wrong or out of touch for either answer.

    What era are we putting them in? Keith probably has a stronger argument than both, and I'd say Hedman is likely to end up with the better career and was only drafted a year behind them. Their careers also overlapped with the tail end of Pronger and Lidstrom. And it is hard to tell who among players drafted within 10 years of them will land (Makar, Seth Jones, etc).
     
  17. psycat Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    Messages:
    2,347
    Likes Received:
    601
    Trophy Points:
    94
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Location:
    Linkoping Sweden
    Karlsson absolutely. I voted no for Doughty but honestly I don't know, he might make the cut if I actually made a list but hard to guesstimate. Karlsson to me is around 15-20 dman of all time for prime, Doughty 10-15(maybe 20) places lower so then it all depends on forward to dman ratio and how I would rank goalies.

    But obviously it's murky waters ranking players outside of the absolute best. Let's say I have Karlsson in the second tier of great defencemen(or 3rd if you give Orr his own) while Doughty is in the 3rd(which is is a larger tier than the second). All dmen in the second tier comfortably would make my top 100 while some in the 3rd probably would, would need to make a list and see where I would place Doughty within that tier.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
    slapKing likes this.
  18. psycat Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    Messages:
    2,347
    Likes Received:
    601
    Trophy Points:
    94
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Location:
    Linkoping Sweden
    But why is your arbitrary line the 90s?
    Would say that Hedman is starting to have a strong case against either.
     
  19. psycat Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    Messages:
    2,347
    Likes Received:
    601
    Trophy Points:
    94
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Location:
    Linkoping Sweden
    This is how I see it aswell but would add a couple of players to the list(Fetisov is obvious for me even if not the best NHL career as is Keith so far). On the other hand I am not so sold on ranking Blake or Zubov above Karlsson(or arguably Doughty).
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
    CasusBelli likes this.
  20. rogking65 Registered User

    Joined:
    May 13, 2016
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    31
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    do you realize that you cannot compare raw skill levels. You would do a ranking like this based on how much better they are compared to players in the league WHEN THEY PLAYED. Player A that was the best defenseman in 1930 would not have the skill level of the 100 best defenseman today.but that does not mean he would be ranked behind these 100
     
  21. Leaves34 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2020
    Messages:
    2,225
    Likes Received:
    3,704
    Trophy Points:
    101
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Gender:
    Male
    When it’s all said and done Karlsson will likely be there, doughty will be close.
     
    slapKing likes this.
  22. Gurglesons Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Messages:
    57,894
    Likes Received:
    41,901
    Trophy Points:
    206
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Home Page:
    Yes, Norris winners. Doughty was a # 1 D on multiple cup winners and a Canadian Gold winner.
     
    generalshepherd141 and slapKing like this.
  23. bobholly39 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    16,991
    Likes Received:
    8,869
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    When the history board made a list ranking the top 100 players in 2018 - both missed. But then this year, they continued the list to rank players from 101 to 200 - and both ended up slotting between 100 and 110.

    So essentially - I agree, in the ~80-120 range. Don't think either guy has really added much since 2018, since they've both had bad runs since.

    My personal vote - yes to both, fringe 100 players. Probably in the ~90-100 range.
     
  24. 95snipes Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2019
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    180
    Trophy Points:
    36
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Being better than peers in a worse league does not make you a better player.
     
  25. JackSlater Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    13,718
    Likes Received:
    6,386
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Low end of the list for Doughty but I am higher on Karlsson. Not sure where he'd go but I'd have Karlsson comfortably within the top 100 ever.
     
    slapKing likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"