Do you consider Karlsson and Doughty top 100 players of all time?

[slapKing]

Simple question, do you guys consider EK and Doughty both 100 players of all time? Both guys are in their 30's, so they been around. Is it likely for them to add substantial accomplishments to their careers? Hard to say? probably not, but you never know. but man, both guys were great in their 20's. some notable accomplishments

Karlsson:
- 625 pts in 788 games
- 2 norris wins +2 runner ups
- lead the league in assists
- top 5 scoring finish
- 4 times hit 70+ points, peaking at 82
- 4 times lead of dman in scoring
- 4 1st team all stars
- Olympic best dman (2014)

Doughty:
- 536 pts in 975 games
- 1 norris wins + 2 runner ups
- 3 times hit 50+ points, peaking at 60
- #1 dman for 2 stanley cup championships
- #1 dman for an olympic gold medal winning team (2014)
- 2 1st team all stars + 2 2nd all stars

Click to read more...

 

[The Moose is Loose]

Only Karlsson imo, and even thats tough to say because its looking like his peak will be pretty short

 

[Plural]

Hmm...that's a difficult question. They both played on a level that warrants a comparison to legitimate top-100 guys. I would have to think about it hard and hard... @bobholly39 is probably the most keen and able to answer this. How do Karlsson and Doughty (two drastically different players and equally different career arcs) compare and slot in top-100 list? I'm thinking I'd like to see Karlsson and Doughty both, nearning the tail end of a such list.

 

[The Wahligator]

Peak Karlsson is quite comfortably a top 100 player all time. Said peak was also very short lived though so its a difficult question. Voted only Karlsson.

 

[CasusBelli]

Let’s look at this simplistically: if there are six defensemen in a roster of 20, then 30 of the top 100 players of all time should be defensemen. Phrased differently: can we think of 30 defensemen better than either of these two? Let’s take out some other defenders that (at least in my mind) are superior to either:

1. Orr
2. Lidstrom
3. Pronger
4. Bourque
5. MacInnis
6. Shore
7. Harvey
8. Chara
9. Blake
10. Park
11. Zubov
12. Housley
13. Stevens
14. Leetch
15. Coffey
16. Potvin
17. Robinson
18. Chelios

This leaves us with 12 more players. Can you name them? There’s no right / wrong answer — just a (hopefully helpful) framework to approach it.

FWIW: I think Karlsson is comfortably in the top 100. Not sold on Doughty.

 

[95snipes]

Idk since ranking players before say 1990 to today seems borderline useless to me. There's no way you will ever convince me that someone that played in the 1950's is better than either of these two.

I do know that since the '05 lockout, they are two of the best with Pronger, Lidstrom, and possibly Chara as the only guys I'd consider taking over them if I was trying to build a cup winner.

 

[Plural]

Idk since ranking players before say 1990 to today seems borderline useless to me. There's no way you will ever convince me that someone that played in the 1950's is better than either of these two.

I do know that since the '05 lockout, they are two of the best with Pronger, Lidstrom, and possibly Chara as the only guys I'd consider taking over them if I was trying to build a cup winner.

How do you feel about Ali? Is it proper to rank him against Floyd?

 

[Thenameless]

Not sure, I'd have to see who the consensus d-men are in the 90-110 range.

Between these two specifically, it's a really hard one for me. I love both guys. Karlsson is the more dynamic and exciting offensive force who can be more of a game changer, so Ottawa was a good fit for him even though he didn't win a Cup. Doughty, on the other hand, is more my cup of tea as far as d-men go. Very responsible in his own end, with a physical edge and a bit of a mean streak. The perfect corner stone for a Cup team.

I'm not sure Doughty would have done better than Karlsson in Ottawa, and I'm almost certain Karlsson wouldn't have made LA any better (they did win two Cups).

Toss a coin; I'd be very happy with either one.

 

[ThatsSoSlavin]

How do you feel about Ali? Is it proper to rank him against Floyd?

Has boxing come as far as hockey? If anything it’s dipped

 

[Thenameless]

Let’s look at this simplistically: if there are six defensemen in a roster of 20, then 30 of the top 100 players of all time should be defensemen. Phrased differently: can we think of 30 defensemen better than either of these two? Let’s take out some other defenders that (at least in my mind) are superior to either:

1. Orr
2. Lidstrom
3. Pronger
4. Bourque
5. MacInnis
6. Shore
7. Harvey
8. Chara
9. Blake
10. Park
11. Zubov
12. Housley
13. Stevens
14. Leetch
15. Coffey
16. Potvin
17. Robinson
18. Chelios

This leaves us with 12 more players. Can you name them? There’s no right / wrong answer — just a (hopefully helpful) framework to approach it.

FWIW: I think Karlsson is comfortably in the top 100. Not sold on Doughty.

I like the logic and thoughtful process put into this. But I think there's one small hole to be poked into the argument. Generally, the most talented skaters growing up tend to become forwards (especially centers), so I would expect there to be an inordinately high number of forwards in the top 100 as compared to a standard team composition. A 500 goal scorer who is really bad at defense is more likely to make the Top 100 than an exceptional defensive defenseman who gets 20-30 points a year.

 

[Kaner9]

Yep especially EK. That's the top 2 defencemen for this generation.

 

[Thenameless]

How do you feel about Ali? Is it proper to rank him against Floyd?

Yes, Ali still above Floyd even with Floyd's "0". For me, it was the Golden Age of Heavyweights. The other big factor (and I understand the argument works against him as well) is his ability to avenge a loss. A guy who beat you (unless you were really young, and he was in his prime) will have the psychological upper hand in your next fight together. And the third argument is Ali fought the best when they were at their best. Floyd is well known to duck the most dangerous fighters in his weight class when they are at the peak of their powers, unlike his peers from the prior era (Duran, Leonard, Hagler, and Hearns) who were basically chomping at the bit to see who the best among them was.

 

[jetsforever]

Kinda tricky to answer without making a full list
Off the top of my head, I'll say just Karlsson

 

[Boreal01]

Yes to both although they're just barely squeezing in

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I don't think you can have one without the other, honestly, unless something drastic happens in the next 5 years.

 

[93LEAFS]

80 to 120 for both most likely, but I'm way too lazy to make the list required to figure out the answer. I wouldn't say anyone was wrong or out of touch for either answer.

Yep especially EK. That's the top 2 defencemen for this generation.

What era are we putting them in? Keith probably has a stronger argument than both, and I'd say Hedman is likely to end up with the better career and was only drafted a year behind them. Their careers also overlapped with the tail end of Pronger and Lidstrom. And it is hard to tell who among players drafted within 10 years of them will land (Makar, Seth Jones, etc).

 

[psycat]

Karlsson absolutely. I voted no for Doughty but honestly I don't know, he might make the cut if I actually made a list but hard to guesstimate. Karlsson to me is around 15-20 dman of all time for prime, Doughty 10-15(maybe 20) places lower so then it all depends on forward to dman ratio and how I would rank goalies.

But obviously it's murky waters ranking players outside of the absolute best. Let's say I have Karlsson in the second tier of great defencemen(or 3rd if you give Orr his own) while Doughty is in the 3rd(which is is a larger tier than the second). All dmen in the second tier comfortably would make my top 100 while some in the 3rd probably would, would need to make a list and see where I would place Doughty within that tier.

 

[psycat]

Idk since ranking players before say 1990 to today seems borderline useless to me. There's no way you will ever convince me that someone that played in the 1950's is better than either of these two.

I do know that since the '05 lockout, they are two of the best with Pronger, Lidstrom, and possibly Chara as the only guys I'd consider taking over them if I was trying to build a cup winner.

But why is your arbitrary line the 90s?

Yep especially EK. That's the top 2 defencemen for this generation.

Would say that Hedman is starting to have a strong case against either.

 

[psycat]

Let’s look at this simplistically: if there are six defensemen in a roster of 20, then 30 of the top 100 players of all time should be defensemen. Phrased differently: can we think of 30 defensemen better than either of these two? Let’s take out some other defenders that (at least in my mind) are superior to either:

1. Orr
2. Lidstrom
3. Pronger
4. Bourque
5. MacInnis
6. Shore
7. Harvey
8. Chara
9. Blake
10. Park
11. Zubov
12. Housley
13. Stevens
14. Leetch
15. Coffey
16. Potvin
17. Robinson
18. Chelios

This leaves us with 12 more players. Can you name them? There’s no right / wrong answer — just a (hopefully helpful) framework to approach it.

FWIW: I think Karlsson is comfortably in the top 100. Not sold on Doughty.

This is how I see it aswell but would add a couple of players to the list(Fetisov is obvious for me even if not the best NHL career as is Keith so far). On the other hand I am not so sold on ranking Blake or Zubov above Karlsson(or arguably Doughty).

 

[rogking65]

do you realize that you cannot compare raw skill levels. You would do a ranking like this based on how much better they are compared to players in the league WHEN THEY PLAYED. Player A that was the best defenseman in 1930 would not have the skill level of the 100 best defenseman today.but that does not mean he would be ranked behind these 100

 

[GermanSpitfire]

When it’s all said and done Karlsson will likely be there, doughty will be close.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes, Norris winners. Doughty was a # 1 D on multiple cup winners and a Canadian Gold winner.

 

[bobholly39]

80 to 120 for both most likely, but I'm way too lazy to make the list required to figure out the answer. I wouldn't say anyone was wrong or out of touch for either answer.

When the history board made a list ranking the top 100 players in 2018 - both missed. But then this year, they continued the list to rank players from 101 to 200 - and both ended up slotting between 100 and 110.

So essentially - I agree, in the ~80-120 range. Don't think either guy has really added much since 2018, since they've both had bad runs since.

My personal vote - yes to both, fringe 100 players. Probably in the ~90-100 range.

 

[95snipes]

do you realize that you cannot compare raw skill levels. You would do a ranking like this based on how much better they are compared to players in the league WHEN THEY PLAYED. Player A that was the best defenseman in 1930 would not have the skill level of the 100 best defenseman today.but that does not mean he would be ranked behind these 100

Being better than peers in a worse league does not make you a better player.

 

[JackSlater]

Low end of the list for Doughty but I am higher on Karlsson. Not sure where he'd go but I'd have Karlsson comfortably within the top 100 ever.