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Do they deserve to be in the HHOF pt. 3

Big Phil

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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Alright time for another go at it with a new group of guys. Hey I really loved the responses form the other two similar posts. I never thought so many people would have an opinion on Flash Hollet. Oh well here we go. These guys are either in the HHOF and have been hotly contested or arent in there yet and are already hotly contested.


Jeremy Roenick - I'm sure this one will lead to a variety of opinions. Roenick has no post season all-star selections, no Cups, one Cup final appearance. He is under a PPG for his career especially after his woeful '05-06 season. His career playoff is under a point per game but not by much and the truth is he inst a bad all time playoff performer. '90, '92 even '04 are some good playoff years for him. Throw in the fact that his single season points are as follows: 107, 107, 103, 94. Pretty good. The only thing is that after that he's a 70ish point man. He did get two 50 goal seasons but my knock on him is that he didnt realyl do much with his career after he turned 24. Yes injuries hurt him. That and the lack of Cups. It bothers me too that the only time Team USA ever won anything ('96) he wasnt even on the team. Now I'd love Roenick on my team no doubt. But I look at one season, '93-94, where maybe, just maybe he was a top 10 player. That's it. To me with everything he falls short.

Bill Barber - He's already in the HHOF as we know. But there are som who dont like the idea of him being there. I've heard it before and I wonder why. First off, he did have a short career, only 12 seasons. That hurts him. but his numbers in that time are good. 883 points in 903 games. 108 points in 129 playoff games. 420 career goals. Then look at his peak value. His best season is '75-76 he was 50-62-112. After that his point seasons are 89, 85, 80. He has 5 40+ goal seasons, one of them was 50. And the main thing is his two Cups. Not just cause he won them but he was a key to those Flyers Cups. Also other times when they hit the final ('76, 80) he was great, throw in a good performance in '81 as well. he was in 4 Cup finals in total. Barber is a winner, a champion. And he has a knack for clutch goals. Game 4 of the '74 Cup finals, Game 2 of the '76 Canada Cup which tied the game. Throw in the fact that he was a first team all-star once, and a second team twice. And I can find one season ('75-76) where he was easily a top 10 player, maybe even top 5. IMO he's a legit HOFer.

Rob Blake - Sure he's not in yet but so far I think he has the credentials. Vezina winner in '98, First team all-star in '98, second team in '00, '01, '02. That's four right there. He is a Cup winner in '01, an Olympic Champion and dont forget he was huge in that '01 playoffs getting 19 points. Some people have a problem with Blake and I dont know why. In his prime he was a very sought after defenseman. He was always one of the best in the game, not to mentioned one of the most well rounded. Scored over 20 goals twice. He's not up there with Stevens, Niedermayer, Pronger and of course Lidstrom but after that in his pirme were there any better defensemen? He'll be in eventually.

Kevin Lowe - Lets start with the Cup victories. He has six. He's a champion no one will deny that. He was also there when Canada won the '84 Canada Cup. But his career high in points is 46 even as a defenseman. Okay so maybe he wasnt an offensive defenseman and he wasnt, but on the Oilers you'd think he could muster out more than that. No post season all-star selections as well, that hurts any defenseman. 214 career playoff games, that's good but Lowe isnt someone you associate with as great. Good player on a great team yes. But I dont know why he ends up on people's lists as one of the best not in the Hall.

Kenny Wharram - Played his entire career on the Hawks. First team all-star two times '64 and '67. One Cup with Chicago. Three Cup finals appearances. Career high 71 points. Lady Byng Trophy in '64. 6th in league scoring in '64, 4th in '67, then 10th in '68. To me he falls into the category that a guy like Ken Hodge falls into as well. He was overshadowed by guys on his team, and might of put up decent numbers just becuase of that. I like Wharram, I dont think he was as good as Hodge, beacuse Hodge also contributed more as well in the playoffs and has bette regular season numbers. Wharram has a short prime, and his career points is 533 in 766 games. I have never personally heard someone campaigning for Wharram, and I wouldnt put him in the Hall, but maybe someone likes him who knows. He was no Hull or Mikita by the way.
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MS

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It wouldn't be a disgrace if Roenick made it. He's definitely borderline. Very short prime at a very young age, no major awards, no Cups. He's definitely behind Modano and Sundin in the pecking order, and Niewendyk as well. I'd vote no but I'm not set in stone on that.

Barber is again borderline. One great year 25 points better than any other season of his career (the only time he was top-10 in scoring). Was a key member of a multiple Cup-winning team, and does have the post-season All-star berths. But his career numbers are iffy (albeit largely due to injury) and he didn't have enough really great seasons. I don't have a huge problem with him being in, but wouldn't care if he wasn't in either. I don't see too much difference between Barber and Rick Martin, who isn't in.

Blake was one of the top 5 or 6 defenders of the 94-04 dead-puck era. Has the Norris, has the All-star berths, has the Cup ring, has the international success. He'll get in without too many problems. I'm not his biggest fan but his resume is clearly HHOF-worthy. A huge difference maker on the 2001 Avalanche championship team.

Lowe is an interesting case. #2 defender on one of the greatest teams ever. 6 Cup rings. On one hand he's a hugely important player on one of the most important teams ever. On the other hand he's Mike Ramsey with a bunch of Cup rings. He's definitely behind Howe in the pecking order, although defenders from the 1980s are pretty under-represented in the HHOF. Wouldn't kill me to see him in. If his career as a GM continues on the right track, he might make it for being 'almost good enough as a player' + 'almost good enough as a builder' ... a 1+1=3 sort of thing.

Wharram doesn't seem like a HHOF player to me. One thing that stands out is that he only scored 16 goals in 80 career playoff games. Not great at all. Was one of the top LWs in the game for a few years though. But his career stats aren't there, nor are dominant individual seasons.
 

God Bless Canada

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Roenick: No. To me, he's an emphatic no. And I don't see him doing anything to change my mind. At his peak, from the 1990 playoffs to the end of the 1993-94 regular season, he was an elite player. And he wasn't just about points, either: he played a hard-nosed gritty game. Got involved in the corners. Threw the big hits. Took the hits to make a play. There wasn't anything he couldn't, or wouldn't, do. But since 1994, has he been among the top 20 players in the league? No. Top 50? Yes. He should have accomplished more. He'd go through those spurts when he'd remind you of the JR of old: that cocky, abrasive superstar who'd get a goal, two assists, two roughing minors and four hits. As a newspaper reporter, I love Roenick's personality, I think the game needs more entertainers like him. His candor and love of the game are refreshing in this IMG-controlled sports landscape. But in recent years, he's been known more for his mouth than his game. How long until JR does a guest appearance on Denis Leary's brilliant program "Rescue Me?"

Wharram: Our old Blackhawk fan murray can probably tell you more about Wharram than I ever could. But I will say this: anyone who can twice beat Gordie Howe for the first all-star team right wing spot had to be a pretty damn good player. (Incidentally, I landed Wharram as the second line RW for my minor league team in the last all-time draft). But he's not an HHOFer. He was a valuable part of the scooter line with Mikita and Pit Martin. He was a consistent scorer who had several good years ahead of him when he suffered a career-ending heart attack. But put him in there when Provost, Larmer and Tocchet aren't getting in? No.

Barber: To me, he's a borderline case who got in because of his role on the Flyers championship teams. I think the HHOF would be fine without him, but I don't have qualms with his inclusion. He was a great player who played a big role on a team that won back-to-back titles.

Lowe: I love Kevin Lowe. I think he was a meticulous defensive defenceman, a guy I would want on my team if I'm in a Game 7 situation. Tough as nails, great in the corners, a dominant force in his own zone. And six rings? There are many defencemen much better than Lowe who would trade their spot in the HHOF for one or two rings. I think you can see where this one is going: I don't think he belongs. Was he ever a top five defenceman? No. A top 10 defenceman? Maybe, but he would have been on the fringe of the top 10. I think MS makes a great point: if he continues his brilliance with Edmonton, it might be a 1+1=3 situation. But I think his best chance is in the builder's wing. If he can build a Cup champion in Edmonton, I think he gets in. HHOF voters seem to be a little more interested in non-NHL accomplishments for builders than players. Lowe has been instrumental in Team Canada's international successes.

Blake: I say no, but it is with the not yet caveat. I said it about Mike Vernon, who I think should be in: when have you ever associated "future HHOFer" with Rob Blake? The four all-star team selections would tie him with Brewer among non-HHOF defencemen. He absolutely deserved the Norris in 1998, despite what some stats freaks will tell you. He was great for Colorado in 2001, and he was brilliant in his breakthrough performance: the 1993 playoffs, when he, Zhitnik and Sydor looked like the NHL's new Big 3. He was a top 5 defender from about 1998 to 2003, but let's face it: outside of Lidstrom, nobody in Blake's generation really emerged as a top 20 defenceman. (Pronger and Niedermayer still have their work cut out for them, big-time, to reach all-time top-20 status). If Blake does get in (and I wouldn't be livid with his inclusion like I would be with say, Turgeon, Housley or Roenick), it'll take some time, and he'll likely need something else to cement his credentials. There are several better defencemen not in the HHOF.
 

chooch*

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Form and Substance said:
I'd sure love to have Lowe playing in a game 7 for the other team.
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I second the comment from Verdun. Lowe was a Brian Engblom level defenceman. No way in the Hall. I respected Huddy the most of that Oilers D; and that guy who was a doc, for other reasons (how many rings does he have?).
 
Nalyd Psycho

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Wharram-Another example of, this is not the hall of very good.

Roenick-Like Kevin Stevens, his peak was just way too short for HHoF concideration. And since his peak he's been a good 2nd liner.

Lowe-I have an era bias. That is to say, offensive players from high scoring eras are better than offensive players from low scoring eras, and defensive players from low scoring eras are better than defensive players from high scoring eras. As one of the better defensive d-men from an offensive era, I just can't put him in the Hall as he wasn't definative of the era, nor did he stem the prevailing tide.

Blake-And the inverse happens here. One of the top 5 d-men from an era where defence and goal ruled the game. Blake gets in easy.

Barber-Not a wow must have selection, but nothing wrong here either.
 

Bluesfan1981

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chooch said:
I second the comment from Verdun. Lowe was a Brian Engblom level defenceman. No way in the Hall. I respected Huddy the most of that Oilers D; and that guy who was a doc, for other reasons (how many rings does he have?).
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I agree not a Hall of Famer, but that may be a bit unfair; he was better than Brian Engblom.
 
GKJ

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If Roenick wants to be considered (not in) he needs to get 500 goals.
 

Bluesfan1981

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Nalyd Psycho said:
Yes, the best defensive defenceman and the best defensive forward of the most defensive era in over 50 years. I see nothing about that that isn't HHoF worthy.
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That doesn't mean that they are great players. When one thinks of them one doesn't think Hall of Fame (or at least many don't.)
 
jamiebez

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MS said:
It wouldn't be a disgrace if Roenick made it. He's definitely borderline. Very short prime at a very young age, no major awards, no Cups. He's definitely behind Modano and Sundin in the pecking order, and Niewendyk as well. I'd vote no but I'm not set in stone on that.
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That's pretty much how I see it... if he does get in, he'll likely be waiting quite a while. There are several better forwards - and as you mentioned, three better centers - from his era who will likely be retiring around the same time, delaying his induction. He's a "No" for me, and I was a real big fan of him during his Chicago years. To me, this should have been a guy who dominated the league in his prime and he didn't quite get there. He was very good, but not dominant.

Lowe is also an interesting case. I like the "Mike Ramsey with 6 rings" comparison. I would lean towards "No" on him as a player, just because the gap between the #1 (Coffey) and #2/3 (Lowe, Huddy) on those Oilers teams was so big that it really underscored who the difference maker on the blueline was for that team. Coffey was a guy you had to plan against as an opposing coach. Lowe was never that guy.

Rob Blake is an absolute "Yes" for me. A lot of playoff and international success to go along with an impressive regular season resume. A solid 4th best amongst guys of his era, IMO (Lidstrom and Pronger are definitely ahead of him, probably Niedermayer, too). He may have to wait a bit, too, depending on when he retires, but I would definitely put him in eventually.
 
pavel13

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Is Niedermayer really that much better than Blake? Or are people just saying he's had a better career because his success has come more recently? Yeah, he has won a couple more Stanley Cups. But that's cause he was on one of the best two or three teams of his generation for most of his career so far.

He was a top 5 defender from about 1998 to 2003, but let's face it: outside of Lidstrom, nobody in Blake's generation really emerged as a top 20 defenceman. (Pronger and Niedermayer still have their work cut out for them, big-time, to reach all-time top-20 status).
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What about Leetch? He's less than two years older than Blake.

I fail to see how Niedermayer, aside from maybe longevity and playing on great teams, has much of anything that Blake doesn't have. One Norris Trophy each. Niedermayer has two more Stanley Cups. Blake has better PPG in both regular season and playoffs. I think they are a lot closer than people seem to think.
 
Big Phil

Big Phil

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pavel13 said:
Is Niedermayer really that much better than Blake? Or are people just saying he's had a better career because his success has come more recently? Yeah, he has won a couple more Stanley Cups. But that's cause he was on one of the best two or three teams of his generation for most of his career so far.


I fail to see how Niedermayer, aside from maybe longevity and playing on great teams, has much of anything that Blake doesn't have. One Norris Trophy each. Niedermayer has two more Stanley Cups. Blake has better PPG in both regular season and playoffs. I think they are a lot closer than people seem to think.
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Niedermayer has three Cups compared to Blake's one. That's not a big deal I mean Ray Bourque had only one Cup, but it was the way Niedermayer won them. He led the playoffs in scoring in 2003. Plus Niedermayer has two first team all-star selections and one second team, still one all-star selection behind Blake but he's still very near his prime and may have another Norris trophy coming at him. Blake's a HOFer, but at the end of thier careers Nieds will be remembered as the better one.
 
arrbez

arrbez

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Bluesfan1981 said:
That doesn't mean that they are great players. When one thinks of them one doesn't think Hall of Fame (or at least many don't.)
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Seriously. Just because you're the best at one aspect or another doesn't make you a HHOFer. At no point did I ever consider either player amongst the top 15 or 20 players in the game. Should Peter Zezel be elected to the hall for being arguably the best faceoff man ever?
 
arrbez

arrbez

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Bluesfan1981 said:
That doesn't mean that they are great players. When one thinks of them one doesn't think Hall of Fame (or at least many don't.)
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Seriously, defensive forwards are overrated. Just because you're the best at one aspect or another doesn't make you a HHOFer. At no point did I ever consider either player amongst the top 15 or 20 players in the game. Should Peter Zezel be elected to the hall for being arguably the best faceoff man ever?

Bob Gainey (pretty much accepted as the best defensive player ever) is not even close to the best forward ever in my books.

Foote...I just don't think he's quite there, but that's another story.
 
pavel13

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Big Phil said:
Niedermayer has three Cups compared to Blake's one. That's not a big deal I mean Ray Bourque had only one Cup, but it was the way Niedermayer won them. He led the playoffs in scoring in 2003. Plus Niedermayer has two first team all-star selections and one second team, still one all-star selection behind Blake but he's still very near his prime and may have another Norris trophy coming at him. Blake's a HOFer, but at the end of thier careers Nieds will be remembered as the better one.
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So, one or two good playoff years makes him a better playoff performer than Blake? Like I said, Blake's PPG numbers are better for both regular season AND playoffs. Niedermayer has played on better teams for most of their careers, leading to two more Cups.

Niedermayer wasn't really considered a top five defenseman until the year he won the Norris. Their careers up to age 33 or so are very similar. Blake's success came a little earlier in his career, while Niedermayer is around his peek right now.

At the end of their careers, Niedermayer will most likely be considered better, I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that I think it will be closer than people have been suggesting in this thread.
 
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