Do these players make the Hall of Fame?

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Not pointing you out in particular (I apologize if I come across as a a-hole), but IMHO - what amuses me most is how many will take 'X' netminder, and say he's HoF worthy, and then say 'B' netminder is not...

Once again - how many goalies who are now in the HoF were on a $hitty team?

How many goalies in the HoF did not win a Cup?

Osgood may not have been at the top tier of netminding, but lets be honest here shall we?.....If guys like Lafontaine, Hawerchuck, Gartner, and Ciccarelli can make it in - why can't Osgood?\

IMHO - it's a painfully obvious dbl standard.

Honestly I don't disagree with your argument. Relative standards on who's in the HHoF is a lengthy minefield of a discussion. (Phil Housley, really?)

I more mean that in my version of what the HHoF standard should be, Ozzy wouldn't be in it. But that has no bearing on who's already there and what they'll do.

 

[Invictus12]

An honest question if I may - and others here can respond...

Forgive my ignorance, but how many HoF netminders had a poor team in front of them, or how many netminders made it into the HoF that did not win a Cup?

While I thought pretty much the same thing as you did on the matter, fact is, he was never really considered a top goaltender either. In his time, Hasek, Roy, Brodeur were the main guys. Then you also have Joseph, Belfour, Richter.. He was always considered to be quite down on the list of top goalies.

 

[Bench]

While I thought pretty much the same thing as you did on the matter, fact is, he was never really considered a top goaltender either. In his time, Hasek, Roy, Brodeur were the main guys. Then you also have Joseph, Belfour, Richter.. He was always considered to be quite down on the list of top goalies.

Therein lies the problem. Compared to his peers, Osgood was never considered a top tier goalie. And this is evident by the fact the Red Wings were constantly trying to replace him. But through it all, Osgood's numbers come out looking really strong. Like as strong as some of the HoF goalies. And his 2008-2009 playoff runs were as good as you could ask for - damn near MVP quality.

So Osgood is a tricky one. I think most people err on the side of caution and say no, but the more you dig into his numbers and the back-to-back runs in 2008/09... you say, "Well, hmm, maaaaayyybee?" I think Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, and Belfour are your easy top 4. After that, I think Osgood hangs with anyone. And I guess do you think the 5th-ish best goalie of his generation should get into the HoF? That's the real question.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I mean, actually... what is a compiler?

A guy who hangs around long past his effectiveness date to rack up stats, right?

I actually don't think that is Chris Osgood. Two of his better seasons and more Hockey Hall of Fame friendly seasons happened in the last three years of his career. If not for the Wings being unable to score against Fleury and Maxime Talbot potting two bouncing goals that are generally the type you don't kill a goalie for, he wins the Conn Smythe. Chris Osgood was a HUGE part of that 2009 run. He saved the Wings bacon in 2008. He wasn't just a passenger on those Cup winning or finalist teams.

I had originally thought just Dats and Z... but I think you can make a strong enough argument for Ozzie that when there is a weak year, he gets in. No, he wasn't ever a Vezina goalie, but he has enough key moments and big time performances that I think they supplement his counting stats.

And knowing tough it is to keep mentally focused in games where your team is kicking the **** out of the other... People will say anyone could win behind those Wings teams, but it is way harder than you'd think. It will also help to account for his lower sv%. I don't have a stat for how many high danger attempts he had in relation to easier saves, but my thought is that he wouldn't get so many of the easy saves to pad his sv% because the Wings were so good on defense that it was either a perfect setup that would result in a goal or a high danger chance that Osgood would have to be called on. As opposed to what Nashville did for so long, gumming up lanes and letting the fact that Pekka Rinne was about 8 foot tall suck up all the perimeter shots.

 

[Frk It]

Osgood never had a single season with a save % of .915 or better. I don’t believe he ever had a season where he had a top 5 sv% in the league.

His whole argument is based around wins and GAA, which are more team stats than individual stats.

I like Osgood, but I don’t see the legitimacy to why he should be in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Invictus12]

Therein lies the problem. Compared to his peers, Osgood was never considered a top tier goalie. And this is evident by the fact the Red Wings were constantly trying to replace him. But through it all, Osgood's numbers come out looking really strong. Like as strong as some of the HoF goalies. And his 2008-2009 playoff runs were as good as you could ask for - damn near MVP quality.

So Osgood is a tricky one. I think most people err on the side of caution and say no, but the more you dig into his numbers and the back-to-back runs in 2008/09... you say, "Well, hmm, maaaaayyybee?" I think Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, and Belfour are your easy top 4. After that, I think Osgood hangs with anyone. And I guess do you think the 5th-ish best goalie of his generation should get into the HoF? That's the real question.

The thing is I'm not sure he was ever considered 5thish either. More like the middle of the pack of starting goalies. It kind of reminds me when NHL was announcing 100 greatest players and Mike Gartners name came into question. On one hand, he has over 700 goals and on the other hand he never really had a spectacular season and was never at the top of the list of best players in any years that he played. I feel to large degree that both sides have a legitimate argument and at the same time, I felt the only reason why he got there was a historical record and not his actual play. Ray Whitney had a great career on record at the end of the day but he never really wowed anyone either. Although in Osgood's case, as you mentioned, it's different. Not sure how to put it.... There's just that missing piece that I think keeps him out. It's a popularity part more than anything else.

 

[njx9]

He has none. The push is 400 wins, 3 Cups with 2 of them him being the starting goalie and being within a game of a 4th one where he was undoubtedly going to be the Conn Smythe if the Wings had won game 7.

Those just don't seem like "HoF" stats in the absence of him ever having actually been a top goalie in the league. Like, "ring of fame" for your own team, maybe, but not "hall full of the best players to ever play the sport" good. I'm good with Ozzie in the 'hall of pretty good players', if there is one, though.

 

[Flowah]

Osgood never had a single season with a save % of .915 or better. I don’t believe he ever had a season where he had a top 5 sv% in the league.

His whole argument is based around wins and GAA, which are more team stats than individual stats.

I like Osgood, but I don’t see the legitimacy to why he should be in the Hall of Fame.

On the other hand, his SV and GAA in the last 2 deep playoff runs with the Wings were quite good. Though yeah, we had a hell of a team at that point.

 

[Flowah]

People will say anyone could win behind those Wings teams, but it is way harder than you'd think.

Let's keep in mind that even Niemi has a cup thanks to the dominance of the team in front of him. And Crawford is good but is he top 5? I say no. And yet he looked pretty good behind the Hawks as well.

It's a team sport. A goalie is part of the team. But it's tough for me to tease out who's helping who more. Goalies are so tricky because they can't score and a lot of their stats are so team dependent. Even SV is somewhat team dependent. You can have a bad SV if you let in under 2GAA but your team is so good at suppressing shots that few make it to you.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I mean, actually... what is a compiler?

A guy who hangs around long past his effectiveness date to rack up stats, right?

I actually don't think that is Chris Osgood. Two of his better seasons and more Hockey Hall of Fame friendly seasons happened in the last three years of his career. If not for the Wings being unable to score against Fleury and Maxime Talbot potting two bouncing goals that are generally the type you don't kill a goalie for, he wins the Conn Smythe. Chris Osgood was a HUGE part of that 2009 run. He saved the Wings bacon in 2008. He wasn't just a passenger on those Cup winning or finalist teams.

I had originally thought just Dats and Z... but I think you can make a strong enough argument for Ozzie that when there is a weak year, he gets in. No, he wasn't ever a Vezina goalie, but he has enough key moments and big time performances that I think they supplement his counting stats.

And knowing tough it is to keep mentally focused in games where your team is kicking the **** out of the other... People will say anyone could win behind those Wings teams, but it is way harder than you'd think. It will also help to account for his lower sv%. I don't have a stat for how many high danger attempts he had in relation to easier saves, but my thought is that he wouldn't get so many of the easy saves to pad his sv% because the Wings were so good on defense that it was either a perfect setup that would result in a goal or a high danger chance that Osgood would have to be called on. As opposed to what Nashville did for so long, gumming up lanes and letting the fact that Pekka Rinne was about 8 foot tall suck up all the perimeter shots.

I don't think of a compiler necessarily as someone who hangs around past their effectiveness. To me it's more a good player who's been fortunate enough to play a lot of games, usually on good teams, for a long time but was never really elite. The conversation has changed somewhat since his play last year in Vegas but to me Marc Andre Fleury is an example of a compiler.

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

I voted All eventually but I am not so sure that Ozzie will but they all should.

 

[Sadekuuro]

I never thought Osgood was among the best goalies of any era in which he played. I'm confused that there's push for him to make the Hall, though I grant that I don't know anything about his non-NHL achievements (if any) that might tip the balance.

Per his career Vezina record, NHL GMs didn't think so either. The HHOF bar for goalies is particularly high and Osgood isn't particularly close. Does anyone outside of the Wings' fanbase think he should be enshrined?

 

[waltdetroit]

Per his career Vezina record, NHL GMs didn't think so either. The HHOF bar for goalies is particularly high and Osgood isn't particularly close. Does anyone outside of the Wings' fanbase think he should be enshrined?

Here are 2 pro Ozzie, but there are some against just like in Detroit
Hall of Fame debate: Chris Osgood
https://thehockeywriters.com/chris-osgood-hall-of-fame-worthy/

 

[Marky9er]

Osgood benefited from playing behind a great team. At the same time I once saw Brodeur post a 6 save shutout. He didn't benefit more than that, and I am not saying that he was anywhere near as good as Brodeur. I just think the good team argument is worthless. If they won in 09 he would have been in with a Conn Smythe, but they didn't so he won't be in.

 

[Frk It]

Osgood benefited from playing behind a great team. At the same time I once saw Brodeur post a 6 save shutout. He didn't benefit more than that, and I am not saying that he was anywhere near as good as Brodeur. I just think the good team argument is worthless. If they won in 09 he would have been in with a Conn Smythe, but they didn't so he won't be in.

To me, a Hall of Famer would be a Hall of Famer if you dropped them on most teams in the league. Look at Hasek. I think Brodeur would have been great on most teams as well.

Can you say the same for Osgood? I don’t think you honestly can.

The only goalies from the modern era I would consider for the HOF right now would be Lundqvist and Luongo. Both those guys played a big chunk of their careers on meh teams but had great numbers regardless and always elevated the level of those teams.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

To me, a Hall of Famer would be a Hall of Famer if you dropped them on most teams in the league. Look at Hasek. I think Brodeur would have been great on most teams as well.

Can you say the same for Osgood? I don’t think you honestly can.

The only goalies from the modern era I would consider for the HOF right now would be Lundqvist and Luongo. Both those guys played a big chunk of their careers on meh teams but had great numbers regardless and always elevated the level of those teams.

I know when he was dropped on a bad Islanders team and a mediocre Blues team he took both to the playoffs...

This is really one of the biggest shames of spitting the bit in 09. He was winning the Smythe and a shoe-in HHOF if we find a way in either game 6 or 7. Now I wonder if he Phil Housley's into the HHOF at some point. I think he earned the right for it, I am just not sure he will get it.

What I have always found odd about Osgood is so little of our fan-base argues for him. I cannot think of a fringe hall of fame guy in any sport that gets less love from a market he helped bring championships to. There is no pressure on in his case. Heck people have fumed for years on Trammell and Morris for instance, there isn't much anger around Osgood. I think that is unfortunate, the guy did a lot of winning in this league and is statistically an exceptional post-season goalie as well.

 

[Frk It]

I know when he was dropped on a bad Islanders team and a mediocre Blues team he took both to the playoffs...

This is really one of the biggest shames of spitting the bit in 09. He was winning the Smythe and a shoe-in HHOF if we find a way in either game 6 or 7. Now I wonder if he Phil Housley's into the HHOF at some point. I think he earned the right for it, I am just not sure he will get it.

What I have always found odd about Osgood is so little of our fan-base argues for him. I cannot think of a fringe hall of fame guy in any sport that gets less love from a market he helped bring championships to. There is no pressure on in his case. Heck people have fumed for years on Trammell and Morris for instance, there isn't much anger around Osgood. I think that is unfortunate, the guy did a lot of winning in this league and is statistically an exceptional post-season goalie as well.

I’m not gonna support every Red Wing in every endeavor just because they play for my favorite team, and not sure why that is odd? The homer levels on here are high enough as it is (HF in general moreso than here).

I will bang the drum for guys if I truly believe they are deserving, and intend to do so for both Zetterberg and Datsyuk when the time comes.

You think we are having this conversation with Osgood if he spent the bulk of his career with ANY other franchise? If so, I think you’re kidding yourself.

More importantly, big-picture wise, if you put Osgood in you just lowered the bar a ton and now you have to put a whole bunch of guys in.

 

[Gyldenlove]

I think the world at large has decided Osgood was carried and his very impressive numbers are due to being a good player on a great team. I really doubt he makes the hall of fame, there have been a few years now with some pretty weak classes he could have made it. The fact that he hasn't leads me to believe he won't.

I doubt Zetterberg will make it, he has a very impressive resume, but the vast majority of his trophies are team trophies. Olympic gold, world gold, Stanley cup. He has 1 2nd team all-star appearance and a Conn Smythe.

Datsyuk will make it, two Stanley cups, olympic gold, worlds. 7 individual trophies, one of the players for years considered among the best two way forwards ever.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I’m not gonna support every Red Wing in every endeavor just because they play for my favorite team, and not sure why that is odd? The homer levels on here are high enough as it is (HF in general moreso than here).

I will bang the drum for guys if I truly believe they are deserving, and intend to do so for both Zetterberg and Datsyuk when the time comes.

You think we are having this conversation with Osgood if he spent the bulk of his career with ANY other franchise? If so, I think you’re kidding yourself.

More importantly, big-picture wise, if you put Osgood in you just lowered the bar a ton and now you have to put a whole bunch of guys in.

I know if you ask me Ed Belfour or Chris Osgood for one game I take Chris Osgood. Mostly because I watched him lay waste to Belfour over and over for several years. I don't care what Bench says on this, they have very similar career stats outside of shutouts, only Belfour picked up a couple of Vezina trophies and Ozzie didn't. Meanwhile the teams he had in Chicago and Dallas weren't devoid of talent either. Why does Osgood get hit with just the problem of when he was good it was the team in front of him, when he was bad he was the reason we lost. Dude had one of the toughest jobs in sports and did a great job for years.

List of members of the Hockey Hall of Fame - Wikipedia

But honestly sort by goalie and tell me how Osgood being in cheapens this list. There are guys in you have never heard of, there are goalies in that Chris Osgood is better than.

Homer levels belong on guys that win championships for you. Think about the treatment champion Pistons get or Tigers from 84, lord knows how the Lions will be treated after the Ford family sells the team and we can finally win... I just think the point is I cannot think of a single athlete that accomplished as much as Osgood whose own fan-base doesn't make the case. Sure being on a good team counts, but hey that helped Vernon get in. Grant Fuhr wasn't in St. Louis what he was for Edmonton either... I just don't get it. Osgood didn't miss the playoffs when he went to the teams that were supposed to reveal him, heck he made them better. He came back and was dominant for two straight post-seasons at the tail-end of his career after completely redoing his style. Top 10 goalie in the post-season, 400 wins. MAF will also be an interesting case. You can call it compiling but I see a bunch of guys that get into the HHOF for that. So unless they start removing some of them it doesn't bother me. Chris Osgood wouldn't be the worst guy to get into the hall, not at his own position or really in the bottom 10 that have the honor.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I think the world at large has decided Osgood was carried and his very impressive numbers are due to being a good player on a great team. I really doubt he makes the hall of fame, there have been a few years now with some pretty weak classes he could have made it. The fact that he hasn't leads me to believe he won't.

I doubt Zetterberg will make it, he has a very impressive resume, but the vast majority of his trophies are team trophies. Olympic gold, world gold, Stanley cup. He has 1 2nd team all-star appearance and a Conn Smythe.

Datsyuk will make it, two Stanley cups, olympic gold, worlds. 7 individual trophies, one of the players for years considered among the best two way forwards ever.

Zetterberg will make it. His reputation with fellow players and media are too good. Plus you might look at those as team accomplishments but being triple gold is a big deal. He also has an MVP in the SHL. That all matters in terms of the HHOF because it isn't just the NHL hall of fame. I would be stunned if Zetterberg doesn't get in. He won't be a first ballot guy or anything but he will eventually get in. Zetterberg is also one of the best two-way forwards in the history of the game. Look at the statements out of guys like Toews and Lundqvist when he retired. The popularity part of this contest does matter and Zetterberg is constantly thought of as one of the best of this era.

I have similar fears on Osgood. I think he would have to wait until he is very old to get in and I am doubtful at this point he does.

 

[Frk It]

I know if you ask me Ed Belfour or Chris Osgood for one game I take Chris Osgood. Mostly because I watched him lay waste to Belfour over and over for several years. I don't care what Bench says on this, they have very similar career stats outside of shutouts, only Belfour picked up a couple of Vezina trophies and Ozzie didn't. Meanwhile the teams he had in Chicago and Dallas weren't devoid of talent either. Why does Osgood get hit with just the problem of when he was good it was the team in front of him, when he was bad he was the reason we lost. Dude had one of the toughest jobs in sports and did a great job for years.

List of members of the Hockey Hall of Fame - Wikipedia

But honestly sort by goalie and tell me how Osgood being in cheapens this list. There are guys in you have never heard of, there are goalies in that Chris Osgood is better than.

Homer levels belong on guys that win championships for you. Think about the treatment champion Pistons get or Tigers from 84, lord knows how the Lions will be treated after the Ford family sells the team and we can finally win... I just think the point is I cannot think of a single athlete that accomplished as much as Osgood whose own fan-base doesn't make the case. Sure being on a good team counts, but hey that helped Vernon get in. Grant Fuhr wasn't in St. Louis what he was for Edmonton either... I just don't get it. Osgood didn't miss the playoffs when he went to the teams that were supposed to reveal him, heck he made them better. He came back and was dominant for two straight post-seasons at the tail-end of his career after completely redoing his style. Top 10 goalie in the post-season, 400 wins. MAF will also be an interesting case. You can call it compiling but I see a bunch of guys that get into the HHOF for that. So unless they start removing some of them it doesn't bother me. Chris Osgood wouldn't be the worst guy to get into the hall, not at his own position or really in the bottom 10 that have the honor.

See, I have similar feeings on MAF... and even Corey Crawford who has better numbers than both. So I don’t just have it out for Osgood or anything like that.

What do you think about Mikka Kiprusoff and Ryan Miller? To me, you’d have to start putting guys like that in if Osgood goes in.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

See, I have similar feeings on MAF... and even Corey Crawford who has better numbers than both. So I don’t just have it out for Osgood or anything like that.

What do you think about Mikka Kiprusoff and Ryan Miller? To me, you’d have to start putting guys like that in if Osgood goes in.

I think there are a lot of compilers off of good teams in the HHOF. That is how it works and I am not as attached philosophically to keeping people out as I am into letting people in.

I know some people thinks it cheapens it. But having been to the HHOF even some of the biggest hockey buffs aren't going to remember some of the people there. Chris Osgood has 400 wins and did it in less games started than a lot of people in that club. He is 4th all-time in post-season shutouts. He was a member of teams that won a lot and he was a part of the reason why.

How do I feel about people getting in, if they are voted in that is great. If it takes a long time that is fine by me. But I don't have a huge desire to limit people and I am not one that thinks of the HHOF as only top 75 players all-time need to be in. Osgood accomplished a lot in his career. As will MAF when he hangs them up. Playing for as long as they did at elite levels often made them eligible for this honor. I hope both of them get that honor.

 

[Frk It]

I think there are a lot of compilers off of good teams in the HHOF. That is how it works and I am not as attached philosophically to keeping people out as I am into letting people in.

I know some people thinks it cheapens it. But having been to the HHOF even some of the biggest hockey buffs aren't going to remember some of the people there. Chris Osgood has 400 wins and did it in less games started than a lot of people in that club. He is 4th all-time in post-season shutouts. He was a member of teams that won a lot and he was a part of the reason why.

How do I feel about people getting in, if they are voted in that is great. If it takes a long time that is fine by me. But I don't have a huge desire to limit people and I am not one that thinks of the HHOF as only top 75 players all-time need to be in. Osgood accomplished a lot in his career. As will MAF when he hangs them up. Playing for as long as they did at elite levels often made them eligible for this honor. I hope both of them get that honor.

I guess we have a philisophical difference on this, then.

That old cliche “it’s the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good” is kind of how I look at this.

As for your last point, that’s just it... I don’t think Osgood and Fleury played at elite levels most of their careers. They had some great playoff runs but were mostly middle of the pack starters in the regular season during their careers.

I can see where you’re coming from, I just look at it differently.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I guess we have a philisophical difference on this, then.

That old cliche “it’s the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good” is kind of how I look at this.

As for your last point, that’s just it... I don’t think Osgood and Fleury played at elite levels most of their careers. They had some great playoff runs but were mostly middle of the pack starters in the regular season during their careers.

I can see where you’re coming from, I just look at it differently.

Well unless you kick some guys out the Hall of Very Good already exists is kind of my opinion.

At least it isn't baseball bad where the Hall of Fame is missing a couple of the best players ever while defending keeping in loathsome individuals like Ty Cobb.

Being lucky enough to play on the right team and with the right players is the reason more than a few guys are in.

Honestly more bullish on MAF getting in and I think Osgood was better than him.

 

[odin1981]

The CS and gold medal definitely work in his favor, but I just don't think the league as a whole view him as many Wings fans do. Now granted, anything ESPN says I take with a grain of salt, but here's an example from last fall:

Which current NHL stars are future Hall of Famers?

Pavel Datsyuk (in the "Lock" category)
Datsyuk is an interesting one. Currently playing out the string in the KHL, he never hit 1,000 points in the NHL, finishing with 918 but with a 0.96 points-per-game average, which led the Detroit Red Wings from 1999 to now. As a defensive player, he's a standard-bearer: He has three consecutive Selke Trophy wins and was a six-time finalist. Quadrant 1 is a concern, but he's a four-quad guy in my book, and in the books of the countless players he influenced.

Henrik Zetterberg (in the "Close, but No Hall" category)
The essential question from Detroit Red Wings fans will be "Why Datsyuk and not Zetterberg?" The short answer is that Datsyuk is a superior all-around player whose impact on the game supplements his lack of dominating stats. Zetterberg's Conn Smythe is a highlight.


Now is that a fairly dismissive comparison? Absolutely, but that's my point. Nothing really jumps out at the casual fan for Hank, while Datsyuk had a major reputation for highlight reel goals.

I believe both will get in (Pav and Hank). The lockout and a half will make certain thresholds of offense excusable for players of this era to get in with less.

No way Osbad gets in. He is like the Pittsburgh goalie of the Jagr and Lemieux era Barraso or something. Good enough to win a cup for you due to the talent on the team in other area's but never good enough himself to push into the realm.