Do these guys deserve the Hall part #7

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Big Phil, May 29, 2007.

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  1. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    We have some more new debates to duke out. Nothing beats debating a potential Hall of Famer.

    Andy Moog - Has a record of 372-209-88. Playoff record of 68-57. Those are both pretty good stats. For some reason no matter where Moog was he was good. He won 3 Cups with Edmonton and while Fuhr was the main reason why he still went 6-0 in the Oilers Cup winning seasons in the playoffs combined. Dont forget what he did in '81 with a young Oilers team upsetting the Habs. Then in Boston he helped them reach the Cup finals in '88 and then in '90 where he was a huge part. Unfortunately he had 30+ wins only twice and while its hard to say anything bad about him its equally hard to put him in the great category. Even in his last season in '98 he helped Montreal beat Pittsburgh and played very well. Moog is a guy that had a very good career and to me he's one of the best goalies that will probably never make the Hall. Still, its hard to put him in.

    Chico Resch - To me he's a guy that you assume is in there but he isnt. He has a record of 231-224-82. He led the league in shutouts once, has two second team all-stars ('76, '79) and won a Cup in '80. Yes Billy Smith was the starting goalie and after that Resch was shipped off to Colorado. From '74-81 he was a pretty elite goalie. Keep in mind there were two years when only Dryden was voted as a better goalie in the NHL. That's high praise. He was also selected for the Canada Cup team in '76. Also while his numbers dont blow you away keep this in mind: His record with the Islanders was 157-69-47. Then in '81 he's shipped off to Colorado/NewJersey. Those teams were horrible, and I mean every year they were. Resch played on the '83-84 Devils team, one of the worst in NHL history. The few years surronding it werent much better. I think he needs a lot more recognition. His numbers went down when he got traded to a rotten team but before that he had Hall-like numbers.

    Miikka Kiprusoff - Yes I know his career isnt over yet. Keep in mind he's just 30. He's right at his peak right now and it shows. So far he has a career record of 120-75. And a playoff record of 21-20. He led the NHL in GAA in '03-04 and led the Flames on that improbable Cup run. He won the Vezina last year and was a first team all-star. Most people probably would put him as the #3 goalie in the world right now, and dont forget how he helped Finland in the '04 World Cup. The Hockey News picked him as the best player in the game before this year. That's since changed but you cant take away his impressive '05-06 season. Personally I think he'll get more hardware by the time his career is done. A couple more all-star selections looks possible and maybe a Cup or another Vezina will happen. I think he's on the right track to the Hall of Fame.

    Zdeno Chara - Right now you'd have to say no considering that Pronger believe it or not still has some critics questioning him. He didnt have a good season this year and if that's a trend he can kiss the Hall of Fame goodbye. Leaving Ottawa wasnt very smart either. But so far he has a firs team all-star ('04) and a second team ('06). He'll need more than that plus some playoff greatness which he hasnt had yet. If he goes back to his best season '03-04 and keeps up that trend he'll get in.

    Mats Sundin - Like Modano there is a lot of fence sitting with him. His numbers speak for themselves, by getting 500 goals this year. His best season might have been '96-97 and he's been a very good and close to elite player for about 12 years. Does that get him in? I dont know. He never led the Leafs to glory but who could? If you factor in international play Sundin has a Gold Medal and a high level of play. Throw in two 2nd team all-star selections in '02 and '04 and he has at the very minimum borderline credentials.
     
  2. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    No
    No
    Doubtful
    Doubtful

    I'm probably in the minority, but I'd likely put Sundin in the Hall.
     
  3. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    I would consider inducting Moog. But I think he won't be inducted and most others on this board will be very against his induction.

    Resch - No - a great back-up but Smith was always the go to guy and Resch never had the post or pre dynasty success Moog did in Boston.

    Kiprusoff - Not even close so far. If he continues as he has played the past few years for the next 7, 8 or 9 years then he has a decent shot at it though.

    Chara - Not even close so far. I doubt he does enough to make the Hall of Fame but if he gets back his level of play he had in Ottawa and plays that way until he is 40 he could get in.

    Sundin - To me he has already done enough to get in. Plus being the Leafs Captain for a decade adds to his chances. He is a virtual lock. Some may think he shouldn't get in but he WILL get in regardless. Sundin is consistent like Gartner was - except he is a significantly better and more dominant player that can take an entire team on his back at times. Look at other HHOFers that played in one city a long time like Federko, Goulet etc. Sundin is as good or better than they were. Or Lanny McDonald and Sittler. Sundin is as good as them. Sundin in my mind is not a borderline guy - he is an average HHOFer. Not at the bottom level but neither is he near the top level of HHOFers. Over his whole career I'd say he ranks above Nieuwendyk and Modano (some may debate that). Sundin never had a truly great playoffs but he didn't disapear in the playoffs either. He was huge in major international tournaments. In my mind you either have to really hate the Leafs or have a very, very high standard for the HHOF to not include Sundin.
     
  4. hgo

    hgo Registered User

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    Resch backstopped the young 1975 Islanders to a game away from the Cup Finals, which included a comeback from a 3-0 deficit and nearly coming back again the next round.
     
  5. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    True - But still he should not be in. Maybe the best back-up goalie EVER though, and in every Hall of Fame of the best goalies that just were not quite HHOFers.
     
  6. Snap Wilson

    Snap Wilson Registered User

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    No to Moog, although he's a very underrated goaltender.

    Chico Resch? Are you kidding?

    "Only 30?" Most goaltenders don't last past 34 or so, and only a handful maintain a high level of effectiveness past that point. Unless he has massive success over the rest of his career, he got too late a start to make an impact.

    Chara: Waaaaay too early. Pronger's candidacy may rest on these Finals.

    Sundin: I think he'll eventually get in.
     
  7. LapierreSports

    LapierreSports Registered User

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    To me Sundin is a lock as well as Modano. Sundin was never at a Lemieux, Lindros (90's), Sakic, Yzerman or Forsberg level but just a notch below which is saying a lot. He does not have a lot of hardware or all star team selections as well but 30+ goals and 80+ points for 15 years is very impressive.

    As for Kipper, I really think he has a shot if he plays another 5 years like he has been playing for the last 3 years. Its not out of the question he retires with 3 Vezinas, 1 Conn Smythe, 1 Cup and a few 1st and second all star team selections.
     
  8. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

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    The thing is from the 75 playoffs until they won their first Cup in 80, Smith was the back-up, or at least 1b, for the most part. Resch played more games in both the regular season and playoffs over that stretch.
     
  9. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    Moog played as much as Fuhr in the regular season too. And was the starter over Fuhr in some of the pre-cup Oiler seasons.

    Resch would look better if he had not gone to hockey hell after he left the Isles. Moog went to the Bruins and a finals appearance he was excellent in. If Resch went to a good/decent team like say the Bruins he would have looked alot better.

    Still I am one of the few that thinks Moog should even be considered. Neither will likely get in the Hall if Vachon isn't in there.
     
  10. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

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    I'm not saying there is a strong case for putting Resch in the hall, just that it's wrong to call him Smith's back-up. I think you can say Resch split duties with Smith, and that they were a tandem, but not that Resch was the back-up.
     
  11. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    But he was the back-up in really the time that mattered most and that everyone will remember the longest. The 4 playoffs when they won the Cup.

    Amazing that the 2 Dynasties of the 1980's both had 2 goalies who were among the best in the NHL at the time. Talk about talent heavy teams when the goalie on your bench - no matter which one it was - is better than at least 80% maybe 90% of your opponents starting goalie.
     
  12. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    I think HOF voting is still skewed a little bit by era. If Sundin or Modano began their careers 10 years earlier, I think they'd both have numbers that people just couldn't say no to. An 85 point season in 1997 is probably 95-100 points in 1987. Many will point out that they were never among the the very best players in the game, but there's plenty of guys in the hall who weren't either, and I'm not even talking about the marginal selections.

    I know Modano isn't on the list here, but they're so similar that I figure I'd answer for both of them. Tw of the defining players of their generation, and the face of their respective franchises. Yes, they are HOFers.
     
  13. MS

    MS 1%er

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    Moog is close. But it's still damn hard to induct a guy who was never an All-Star, never seriously contended for a Vezina, and never won a Cup as a starter. Did take 3 teams to the Finals as a starter, only to lose. Has a slim chance of getting in eventually, but is behind guys like Vernon and Barrasso (who are borderline themselves) so it's not very likely.

    Resch is (like Mike Liut) one of the most under-appreciated goalies of all time. As has already been stated, he wasn't Billy Smith's backup, and actually started more regular season games every year from 1975-80, and more playoff games in that span. Prior to the 1980 playoffs (when both guys were already in their 30s), Resch actually had a substantially better HHOF resume than Smith did. But Resch had a couple poor performances in that playoffs, Smith took off, and the rest is history. Resch is dealt to the worst franchise in the NHL, and becomes a forgotten figure. That said, he doesn't belong in the HHOF.

    Kiprusoff is a guy who is on the right track, but it's still horribly premature. If he has another 4-5 seasons like his last 3, he'll have a very strong chance.

    Too early on Chara as well, but he has to take his game to a level it hasn't been at yet. A couple All-Star nods isn't enough - needs a Norris, and needs to show he can be an elite player in the playoffs. If he keeps going the way he's going, he'll fall short.

    Sundin is a lock. By the time his career is over, he'll have ~1400 points playing primarily in the dead-puck era, will be the all-time leading scorer in the history of an original-6 team, and the highest-scoring player ever from his country. Comparable career to guys like Perreault, Sittler, Hawerchuk. Modano will get in as well for a nearly identical career.
     
  14. Bluesfan1981

    Bluesfan1981 Registered User

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    Moog is close. But if you consider him you should also consider Richter, Vanbiesbrouck, and Curtis Joseph. And Lorne Chabot, Vachon, Barrasso, and Mike Vernon would have to be inducted first.
     
  15. JSmith81x

    JSmith81x Your weapon is guilt

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    (written before reading anything past the first post)

    Moog -- 50/50. He's in the top 15 in wins. Was never "so great," but always really good and for a long time. Never had a full season under .500 until he was w/ Dallas when they were duds, and that was late in his career.

    Resch -- no. barely over .500 even when playing half his career w/ a team that won 4 Cups. Split time w/ Billy Smith in the regular season, but was almost always passed over once the playoffs came.

    Kiprusoff and Chára -- too early to tell.

    Sundin -- yes. Outside of his rookie season (when he was 19 and 20), his PPG has never been below .9. Always consistent, rarely misses more than a few game a season, and has good international stats and a handful of medals (it's the Hockey Hall of Fame, not just the NHL Hall of Fame)
     
  16. Wisent

    Wisent Registered User

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    Although you wouldn`t know it if you looked at the honored members.

    Sundin is the only one of the bunch that is mentioned here that is locked in the hall IMO. Had all the success in the world, so consistently good, an iron man. Played on a crappy team for most of his carreer.
    Moog could get consideration as well. I mean Fuhr is in and it is a valid question to ask if he was better than Moog IMO.
     
  17. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    I dont know about that one. Moog deserves consideration yes but he was definetly not better than Fuhr. In '84 and '87 it was Fuhr who was picked for the Canada Cups. Plus in the three years that both Fuhr and Moog won a Cup together Moog was never the starter.
     
  18. Poignant Discussion*

    Poignant Discussion* I tell it like it is

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    Moog - No
    Chico - No
    Kip - I doubt it
    Chara - I really doubt it
    Sundin - Based on international play and constancy, first ballot
     
  19. The Kingslayer

    The Kingslayer Registered User

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    Yes on Sundin... no on the rest. Sundin one of the 3 Kings of Sweden....Lidstrom and Forsberg being the other 2.
     
  20. Psycho Papa Joe

    Psycho Papa Joe Porkchop Hoser

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    Always wished the Habs had made a play for Resch after he left the Isles. He really was the type of guy the Habs needed during that time. He would have been thought of much more highly right now, and also would have given the Habs a guy who was still capable of all-star calibre goaltending when they didn't have anything close to it in between the Dryden and Roy eras. IMO if Resch had gone to a team like the Habs, who for the most part were still a 100+ pt team, he would have alot more wins and IMO would be in the HHOF.
     

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