Do the players really care?

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by Big Phil, Nov 18, 2004.

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  1. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Since I've known that the lockout was going to happen since 2002 I've kept tabs on the comments players have made since then. My favourite is Bryan McCabe's. "We're prepared to sit out for the rest of our lives, before accepting a cap!" Hmmm. Then again this is coming from a guy who sports a hideous mohawk and coughs the puck up to Keith Primeau twice in a playoff game andf makes him look like Mario Lemieux. Yeah I don't put too much stock into that one.

    How about Brendan Shanahan and Brad Richards over the last year. Both said along the same lines that they won't sacrifice a lesser deal for the future players cause they don't want to be selfish. The players before them sacrificed a lot to get the guys today what they want. Okay let me see here. Wasn't it just four years a go Brad that you were playing for the Rimouski OCeanic of the QMJHL. My question is has he lost touch with reality that badly in four years?

    And not being selfish? Hello? Accepting a deal where the average player gets $1.3 mill instead of $1.8 mill is not going to be selfish guys. Is it that bad that guys like Crosby, Ovechkin etc. will only make $8 mill a year instead of Pronger and Jagr's $10 mill. How much is that going to hurt you? Really think about it.

    And don't even start about the thing about players before me sacrificed a lot. Yeah they did. But before 1972 NHL players made about what we make today. Not a lot of people know this but Phil Esposito had to work every summer until 1972 at a steel mill just to make ends meat. The guy was the scoring Champion! The Hart Trophy winner a Stanlye Cup winner and he did a regular job like me. Can you imagine working next to Alexei Yashin in a Steel Mill. lol Sure. Yeah the generation fought before you guys but that's because they weren't poor, literally poor. They did it so they could eat!

    Why are ex NHLers going against the players? Larry Robinson, Lafleur, Beliveau all have made comments about this. Beliveau retired in 1971 and never made more than an average workman's salary. But Robinson and Lafleur both made decent money were part of the NHLPA but yet they still lash out agianst the players. That says something.

    Yes the owners did overpay the Yashins and the Jagr's of the world. But Yashin once held out for an entire season - when he had a contract! If the Isles don't sign him then the Rangers or someone else do. So there is pressure on owners and GMs to fill the seats. If you invest $200 million dollars into a franchise don't you want to have a little bit of profit back? I would. What's wrong with that. What's wrong is the Fedorov's, Guerins, Yashins, and Carters (thats Anson) of the world have held out based on egos, which have ultimately helped drive player salaries up. Can you exlpain why else Carter was on three NHL teams in the past year?

    And my favourite in Vinny Damphousse. After the NHLPA meeting with about 70 players his comment was we want to do what's best for the ASSOCIATION. No not the fans, not the game, the NHLPA! While you think about that I've got to find a way to come with $560 for my rent money next month.
     
  2. x-bob

    x-bob Registered User

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    I totally agree with you man :bow:

    I've been thinking the same thing for quite some time but I was too lazy to wright it down. :handclap: :handclap: :handclap:
     
  3. Bring Back Bucky

    Bring Back Bucky Registered User

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    :handclap: :handclap:
     
  4. Benji Frank

    Benji Frank Registered User

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    The scary thing is 3 different GM's decided maybe Carter was worth the money..... that's what boggles my mind! Why do you need a cap to convince these owners Carter's not worth 3 mill or whatever he was at??? Although, I guess in fairness once a team was forced to take him (to get rid of a good chunk of an 11 million $ contract) and another time he was traded near the deadline when he had very little left of his contract......

    The players held out 'cuz they knew some owner somewhere would give them their money....

    I'm not disagreeing with you. Right until you're last couple of paragragh's I agreed 100%. I just can't begrudge the players for holding out (except those contracted like Yashin), etc. It's kind of like being given 5 plus the bonus in 6/49 ... why cash it if you know some store owners gonna give you 6 of 6 eventually!!
     
  5. BLONG7

    BLONG7 Registered User

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    The players say they care, but their actions speak louder than words. I am very dissappointed in the players allowing Knob Goodenow to tell them on how to think. :banghead:
     
  6. NYR469

    NYR469 Registered User

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    do the owners or gary bettman really care??

    obviously both sides deserve their share of the blame, but if you are going to accuse the players of not caring about the season, then what about the owners refusal to budge off their initial proposal of a $31 mil hard cap??

    why is it that the players 'don't care' because they haven't caved and given into all of the leagues demands, but the league refuses to budge 1 inch and they have the 'best interest of the league' in mind??
     
  7. quat

    quat winsome, loathsome

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    Phil Esposito made "ends meat" ? What the heck is that? heh. This NHLPA has become a mockery of it's former self. For the good of the game.
     
  8. Trottier

    Trottier Very Random

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    :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2004
  9. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    Couldn't agree with Trottier more.

    The whole CBA fight is a fight to split up a Billion dollars between players and owners. Both sides are fighting for what they believe is rightly theres, and both sides are equally at fault. Why should the players fold to the owners wishes ???

    I come at this with the following background:

    Former member of two unions: United Food & Commercial Workres & the Teamsters
    Worked in management and had teamsters working for me.
    Worked as a non-union employee
    Worked in management with non-union employees
    Current Small business owner
    Long time hockey player & fan
    Seasn Ticket holder.


    Remember The Godfather ... it's just business, not personal.
     
  10. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    In '68-69 Esposito made only $11,000. In Larry Robinson's rookie year of '72-73 he made $7,200. It wasnt until 1972 when Bobby Hull signed that WHA contract that players salaries went up.
     
  11. Steve L*

    Steve L* Registered User

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    The players only care about themselves and getting as much cash as possible in their careers. There is no noble cause to make it so future players earn a better living

    If the NHLPA got what they wanted, scores of NHL players would be out of a job because teams would fold. I dont see how the union is helping their membership.

    Maybe its because all the guys on the board are well paid and would be assured of a job elsewhere if their team were to fold and it would be the guys below the average wage that would suffer.

    Its a case of "I want to stay grossly overpaid but I dont mind putting hundreds of people out of jobs to do so."
     

  12. Right. A hairstyle and a bad game totally invalidate the players' position. Welcome to the new era of Hannity style debating.

    So Richards isn't living in reality because he has an opinion different than yours, which is obviously informed ... ugh.
    The question isn't $8M or $10M. The question is about an artificial cap put on the marketplace. The quesiton is about asking the players to give up their right to a fair market contract because the owners have been unable to control themselves.


    So that's what this is about.
    You're upset because you feel inferior to the players because they make more money in one season than you'll make in a lifetime.
    I've got a suggestion for you: Become one of the most talented individuals in the world in a high-demand, big-revenue industry. Then you'll make enough money to fix your fragile ego.


    It does say something. It says that Lafleur, Robinson and Beliveau are on the owners' payroll and that they're being loyal to their bosses.
    You can bet that if any of those guys were hockey players today, they'd say something different.


    Yes they did. Jagr's contract I can somewhat understand. Given his immense talents, I can understand why a GM/owner would be duped into paying such an exorbinant salary for such a long deal. I still wouldn't have done it.
    There is no justification whatsoever for Yashin's deal. He already showed that he was a dishonorable man who would walk out on a contract. He may have been a young star in the game, but he still had a lot to prove.
    If the owners need a salary cap to prevent themselves from Yashin-contract stupidity, than these morons shouldn't be in charge of any business at all.


    Fedorov held out?
    Held out of what?
    He didn't have a contract to play for an NHL team. Who was he supposed to play for?

    Yashin is the exception, not the rule, feller.
    Anyone can point to an exception an make an argument. But you'd be a fool to give the argument more than a second's consideration before flushing it down the toilet.


    Get a better job. A unionized job. Or not.
    Just get a better job and pay your rent. Or quit throwing your money out the window and buy a house or a condo or something.

    Whatever you do, stop taking the whole thing so seriously.
    Because in your attempt to make us feel anger at the players, you've made a good case for us to feel pity for you.
    That's how I feel about all of these ridiculous posts. Or newspapers that fill their letters sections with these emotional rants that downright embarrassing to me as a hockey fan.
    Yes. We love the game. The game is big part of who we are. But no. We're not all psychopaths who appear to be one bad day away from becoming a stalker.

    You are who you are. The players are who they are. The owners are who they are.
    Get over it.

    If you really miss hockey that much, go play.
    I play about 150 games of organized ball hockey a year.
    Do I miss the NHL?
    Of course. But there are ways to fill the void without losing my mind.
     
  13. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Who says I'm losing my mind? I'm surviving fine. I miss Hockey but all I was trying to do was make a point about what has gotten lost here in the game. It's as to why these guys started playing the game in the first place. That's what has gotten lost. $500,000 is what is separating the two sides for an average salary. Is that a lot to ask when you're making 1.3 mil?

    What my point is, that its hard to relate for any Joe-punchclock making $35,000 a year. I don't understand why everyone gets their back up when people bash the players. Yeah owners should be bashed too, but geez say a bad thing about the players who are guilty as well and its like you broke a Commandment or something.

    Lets just say you would be naive if you think that the players want to play and are not looking out for themselves. If they really want to play then they'd get out of that dictatorship called Goodenow and hammer out a deal themselves. Hey look John Madden, Steve Thomas, Mike Ribeiro, among others have all said things openly about accepting a cap. Every former NHLer that gets interviewed supports a cap. What does that say? That once you get out of Goodenow's grasp you can finally think for yourself and you come to reality.

    And ask yourself this. If you went into the Executives at your work and demanded that they pay you some of their profits and if they didnt you refused to sign a new contract do you know what would happen? Yeah you'd be out of a job, replaced in a heartbeat and would be a distant memory.

    It would take an employess at McDonalds 187 years to make Jarome Iginla's yearly salary. Now if somewhere along the way the players havent lost touch with reality and gotten swelled heads then you tell me where I'm wrong!
     
  14. novak

    novak Registered User

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    I'm not sure where I stand, but 500 000 is approx 25% of 1.8 mill... losing a quater of your salary is pretty sizeable...
     
  15. djhn579

    djhn579 Registered User

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    Sometime in the next month, the season will be cancelled, and they will lose 100% of that $1.8M average salary. That is more sizable...

    And they will still lose at least 25% next season...

    They are just delaying what is going to happen, and in fact making it worse. The longer this goes on, the harder it will be to get the fans back. Since salaries will be tied to revenues in some way, that means that they will have an even smaller pie to split up...

    I know it sucks if your used to making that much money, but at the same time they should realize that they have been very lucky to get that and it can't last forever.

    But that is just my opinion...
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2004
  16. GKJ

    GKJ Global Moderator

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    My question to the people who say "The players want all this money to play a game" is this: When you watch a hockey game, who do you watch? The product is the players on the ice, not what you deem worthy enough to be paid what you feel is adequate.



    If the players are the product of a $2B+ business then they should be paid as such. Not 75% revenue worth, but enough. 20 or so guys are responsible (in my estimate) 96% of what teams make. From the actual on-ice product, to apparel, to media contracts, etc. GMs, owners, CEO's, scouts, VP's and other members of the brass do whatever they can to enhance that on ice product, but you don't go to games and watch GMs work the phones.
     
  17. I got lost trying to follow this thread, so Im just going to add my 2 cents in, on what I think about the situation.

    When you are growing up, and you want to be an NHL player. You dream to have a STANLEY CUP, you want a STANLEY CUP. You want to be a Champ. Of course making the big bucks is a bonus, but there is one common goal in every NHL player's mind, and that is to win Lords Stanley.. or is it?

    Thinking about this makes me wonder what ever happened to players thinking about the TEAM first. Answer me this.. Is it selfish to be making $1.8M dollars (which is the average player salary right now.) and REFUSE to take a cut to $1.3M (which is still a gripload of money.) for the benefit for the league that you play in? In my opinion, YES. Because how much money are you really losing? Its not like you are going to go bankrupt, and not make money. Your still going to be making over $1M.

    You'd figure a NHL Player would look at the bigger picture here. The bigger picture for themselves, the bigger picture for the fans, (god forbid anybody plays for us anymore. We're just a bunch of guys that go to watch them play, and support the team they are on. Who needs us?) and the bigger picture for the league. And the bigger picture is the prize at the end of the road which is the Stanley Cup. And with a hard-cap, it will make the league more competitive giving them a shot to win it.

    If you had the option:

    A) $1.3M, and an oppurtunity to play in the Stanley Cup Finals

    or

    B) $1.8M

    which one would you take? It SHOULD be a no-brainer. Now you can say, well just because you have a hard-cap doesn't mean you will win the Stanley Cup, and thats true. But it gives EVERY team a better shot at winning it. Sure they will still be some weak teams, but you won't have Detroit, Coloardo, Philly, Toronto as the sure favorites. And we don't want a Red Sox-Yankees thing, where we have two teams who dominate in the payroll category just fighting it out every year.


    How big of a salary cut is it really? Come on guys I think you can handle it.. Think about how it was when you actually cared about the team aspect of the game. Does that still exist? The team aspect?
     
  18. There selfish and greedy. Worst player in pro sports. I rather go and watch crazy Ron Artest a obese Detroit fan then go and suppourt a bunch of stubbourn greedy hockey players ever again. These selfish players make more then NFL, and NBA players and these leagues both have more revenues from TV alone then the entire NHL revenues.
     
  19. Yeah!
    :handclap:
    Me Too
    Stupid Players :handclap:
    They should play for free. :banghead:
    For the love of the game
    Whatever happened to that :cry:


    {shoot me. please}
     
  20. Did I say they should play for free anywhere? NO so stop with your dumb sarcatic remarks its stupid.
     
  21. HF2002

    HF2002 Registered User

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    The issue isn't so simplistic because pro sports goes far beyond just being a business that it would allow you to say "if you don't like it, don't buy it." This isn't the same thing. You can't just wipe out nearly a century of history, culture and tradition from the fans just because a player thinks he's being treated unfairly at $1.8 per season. It's this attitude that burns people.

    Do the players and owners owe the fans better? Probably. Do they owe the game? Absolutely. If it weren't for the fans they wouldn't have these opportunities.

    If they want to say "if you don't like it don't buy it", I say it shouldn't be the fans who are forced to leave. It's the players and the owners who should leave. The game goes beyond their battle to divide up our money.
     
  22. Epsilon

    Epsilon #basta

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    This is such sappy, idealistic garbage. "The game" is a meaningless term if there ever was one. I'm not really even sure how to respond to this (particularly the part in bold) because it's so far out there.
     
  23. KariyaIsGod*

    KariyaIsGod* Guest

    That has nothing to do with it. A fair market contract is still a fare market contract with or without a cap, with a cap though the market becomes smaller. The fair market contracts, although still perfectly fair, are more reasonable. Let's remember here, this is not aobut whether Brian Pothier makes 200,000$/year or 100,000$/year, it's about whether Chris Pronger makes 10,000,000$/year or 8,000,000$/year. It has nothing to do with fair contracts or anything, it's all about greed. Unfortunately, the union still has the support of the minimum wagers because for some insane reason, they feel the lockout will get them something. It won't. It just won't make the big money guys lose a buck or two.

    He's upset because they make more money than anybody on this earth should even have for playing a game he'd play for nothing. He's upset because rich people waste their money and use the justification that since they "earned" it, they can do whatever they please with it and ignore whatever moral responisibility they should have. He's upset because while he toils daily to pay the bills, Sheldon Souray plays a game then tries to decide whether or not he should buy a new Hummer. This isn't just hockey. This is a worldwide dilemma. These guys though are perfect illustrations of the problem. Too much money for a small group of people. THe worst part is, they'll tell you they need it to feed their families. What a load of BS.

    Maybe, but you can't speculate on that because neither you or I know if it would actually be true. Maybe it's just that these guys are sick and tired of seeing the game they built be destroyed by greed.

    Again, why should he be forced to sacrifice when it's the millionaires who waste their money.

    THe newspapers are right. He is right. Poverty, and social class distinctions will always be a part of a capitalist society. The only way to eliminate those evils without resorting to outright socialism is charity. The haves giving a little to the have nots. If every multi millionaire made the sacrifice, everything would be that much better, but they won't. THey won't because of greed and the NHL players exemplify that quality perfectly.

    He's mad because the players fail to realise just how good they have it and because he and I and most other people would give nearly all we have to be in their position yet still, they won't move an inch to show us some understanding.

    Right. The players are greedy, the owners are greedy. I try and sympathise, I really do, but this is an opportunity for the NHL players to show other athletes and celebrities that there is more to all of this than dollars. These people are living the dreams of the average person. Maybe they've earned it. Maybe they have so much talent that they deserve their place, fine, I accept that but show me some damn respect. These people are no better than me or you or anybody else. They make it seem like it though and that's what makes me mad.
     
  24. SwisshockeyAcademy

    SwisshockeyAcademy Registered User

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    I'm glad it costs nothing to read your posts. Can you possibly find more room under the skirt of the NHLPA?
     
  25. quat

    quat winsome, loathsome

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    sigh... there's no humour here like before. This lockout has made everyone miserable.

    "ends meat" sounds like something you'd make hotdogs with. "ends meet" is as you've pointed out, fairly self explanatory.
     
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