Do Sports Make a City an "IT" city?

[Brodie]

I think TMYK has it right. Cities like Columbus see it as a way to get their names out there, but I don't see that the Blue Jackets have made much of a difference even after ~15 years. Edmonton isn't well known in the US, etc.

I also don't know if you can really call most of the provincial cities that have sports teams "it" cities. I mean, does anyone really want to visit Kansas City just because there's two pro sports teams there? Would tourists from around the planet stop flowing to Orlando if the Magic folded?

 

[Le Oranje]

Atlantic City? Interesting.

I definitely consider Vegas an "it" city, but I just consider Atlantic City depressing.

They have casinos and nightclubs. That's two of the main criteria I have for "it" cities.

 

[Killion]

I think TMYK has it right. Cities like Columbus see it as a way to get their names out there, but I don't see that the Blue Jackets have made much of a difference even after ~15 years.

Well, we all know theyve been beyond anemic for most of their history, have seemingly turned the corner with a new lease on life both metaphorically & figuratively speaking so we'll have to wait & see on that one. But you raise an interesting point, and that is essentially perception. Barring any sport team at all, what do people think of when they hear Columbus or Detroit, Chicago or Austin etc. I hear Columbus I think University Town and thats not exactly an "it City" in-thing to be now is it? Rockwellian. An island surrounded by reality. Or Detroit; Im thinking the auto industry & Motown, but essentially a Dead Zone that desperately needs to reinvent itself. A one-time "it City".... now Chicago, Chicago's always been an "it City" and Austin, an "it City" on its way up or perhaps stalled, like Columbus, forever little more than a University Town. Really depends on criteria. What constitutes an "it City"?

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

True but Cleveland was on the verge of losing the Indians on several occasions in the 70s and 80s only the deal for Jacobs/Progressive Field was made in the early 90s. If they had left and the Browns never returned it would be a much different city.

I think it would feel different for many residents because the feeling of decline would have been reinforced by the teams leaving. But would it actually *be* significantly different? Jacobs Field has been praised by many as the archetypical stadium development serving as an anchor for downtown redevelopment. But even that hasn't really altered the general fate of Cleveland. Some say perception is reality but the truth is that when it comes to investment decisions that can alter the economy of a region pro sports teams are a minimal to non-existent factor.

I actually have studied the Baltimore Inner Harbor development around Camden Yards pretty in depth and you know Baltimore has remained Baltimore. In fact, if you look at the growth and prosperity across the Beltway, it's almost depressing how little Baltimore has profited *in spite* of those mega projects centered around sports.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I don't think I'd consider Columbus an "it" city yet, I still think of it as the biggest college town in the country. Can it rise past that with the Blue Jackets actually becoming relevant? Especially now that they're in the East? It's possible. I think they'll need a 2nd team in the Big Four for the transition to be complete, though, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. I don't think one major team is enough to take a city to that height, I don't think anyone considers Green Bay a major city.

They have casinos and nightclubs. That's two of the main criteria I have for "it" cities.

I definitely disagree on casinos being a criteria considering they were basically unheard of in major cities before too long ago...even then I'm pretty sure there are more NHL teams located in cities without casinos than with them. Pittsburgh & Philadelphia have only had casinos for a handful of years...I don't think anyone was questioning their status before that.

Atlantic City has very little population base and is little more than a tourist destination for people living in a ~250 mile radius. It's a complete non-factor outside of that region. It would be like comparing the Poconos to Yellowstone. Vegas, on the other hand, attracts people from everywhere and has a population base nearing 2 million people.

 

[Mightygoose]

Really difficult to quantify weather sports in of itself makes a city an 'it'.

For sports fans in general there's already a vested interest in the most part so cities that are relatively new in the major league sports (OKC, Columbus) they become more well known just due to their interest.

For those who have alternative interests, other cities are 'its'. Those I know who are more hard core power-outlet shoppers, a place like Gove City, PA is a mecca. It's just a highway exit to me

 

[Fugu]

Really difficult to quantify weather sports in of itself makes a city an 'it'.

For sports fans in general there's already a vested interest in the most part so cities that are relatively new in the major league sports (OKC, Columbus) they become more well known just due to their interest.

For those who have alternative interests, other cities are 'its'. Those I know who are more hard core power-outlet shoppers, a place like Gove City, PA is a mecca. It's just a highway exit to me

I'm with Hoser's comments up above. The BIG leagues aren't there to create ITs but to take advantage of them, cash in. Now, with cities trying to outdo each other and get on the map, "if you build it they will come" philosophies, you do get the occasional places that aren't really as IT as one would hope.

Glendale, at least, is part of metro Phoenix, which is a top 20 media market. There are very few NHL teams that aren't in at least a top 20 US markets. They have struggled from time to time as well.

 

[Tawnos]

Would Charlotte still be a financial center if San Francisco was selected as the HQ for Bank of America when B of A and Nationsbank merged? Or had Nations moved its HQ when it merged with banks in Dallas and Chicago as it grew? Not that I think the guys at Nationsbank were sitting there going "yeah we got the Panthers and Hornets lets keep the headquarters here" but it may have helped Charlotte being perceived as a big league city worthy of a major bank headquarters.

B of A was basically acquired by Nationsbank, but I get your point. I think some of the truth lies the other way around, too. First Union (which was later Wachovia) was already headquartered in Charlotte when the Hornets came into existence. The Nationsbank predecessor, NCNB was also there and a large financial institution that went beyond state lines. In other words, the Hornets and Panthers came, in part, because of the growing financial sector in Charlotte (although the Hornets were also taking advantage of some of the NC basketball hype surrounding Jordan).

In other words, the two ideas kinda feed into each other. Hard to put it all on being one way or the other.

 

[etr102]

I'm with Hoser's comments up above. The BIG leagues aren't there to create ITs but to take advantage of them, cash in. Now, with cities trying to outdo each other and get on the map, "if you build it they will come" philosophies, you do get the occasional places that aren't really as IT as one would hope.

Glendale, at least, is part of metro Phoenix, which is a top 20 media market. There are very few NHL teams that aren't in at least a top 20 US markets. They have struggled from time to time as well.

I agree with Hoser as well. Take Detroit for example. Detroit was an IT city for much of the 20th century and it wasn't because of pro sports - it was because of the auto industry.

Obviously Detroit is now in shambles and is the furthest thing there is from an IT city, but that is completely off topic and beyond the scope of this thread.

Detroit's pro sports thrive both because of the large media market (5.7 million people or somewhere in that neighborhood) and because of their history. Taking advantage of Detroit's status as a former 'it' city if you will.

Detroit is but one example. New York was the financial center of the country before the baseball teams showed up on the scene. Sports franchises show up in IT cities, not the other way around.

 

[kdb209]

Atlantic City has very little population base and is little more than a tourist destination for people living in a ~250 mile radius. It's a complete non-factor outside of that region. It would be like comparing the Poconos to Yellowstone. Vegas, on the other hand, attracts people from everywhere and has a population base nearing 2 million people.

Atlantic city is one of the most depressing places I've ever been - bus loads of blue haired seniors shipped down from NYC.

Right now, the main reason most people in the US are even aware of Atlantic City is Nucky Thompson.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Atlantic city is one of the most depressing places I've ever been - bus loads of blue haired seniors shipped down from NYC.

Right now, the main reason most people in the US are even aware of Atlantic City is Nucky Thompson.

From what I hear kids in the Philly suburbs and Northern NJ basically view Atlantic City as their combined version of Miami Beach and Las Vegas.

 

[Pizza the Hutt]

Two things -

You can't be a "real", competitive city without sports teams, it lends personality, exposure and gravitas to cities that would otherwise have none.

But sports teams do not an "it" city make. For that, you need economy, natural beauty/aesthetics and culture.

Take Cleveland for example. Plenty of sports teams. Not an "it" city, but has way more exposure than, say, Wichita, which has no pro sports teams.

 

[Melrose Munch]

The vast majority of Canadians wouldn't care about Ohio State. Why would it be relevant to me? Or about the thousands of Canadians who only follow the NHL?

The Blue Jackets have done more to boost Columbus awareness than any other entity amongst hockey fan Canadians.

You need to drop this ridiculous idea that Canada is one homogenous state. If you gamble, you know Ohio State.

 

[Brodie]

I personally think things like viable mass transit and walkable streets are vastly more important than the presence of an NBA franchise.

 

[Fugu]

I agree with Hoser as well. Take Detroit for example. Detroit was an IT city for much of the 20th century and it wasn't because of pro sports - it was because of the auto industry.

Obviously Detroit is now in shambles and is the furthest thing there is from an IT city, but that is completely off topic and beyond the scope of this thread.

Detroit's pro sports thrive both because of the large media market (5.7 million people or somewhere in that neighborhood) and because of their history. Taking advantage of Detroit's status as a former 'it' city if you will.

Detroit is but one example. New York was the financial center of the country before the baseball teams showed up on the scene. Sports franchises show up in IT cities, not the other way around.

I think we have to consider these cities not as a place within the boundaries of the city proper, but metropolitan areas. The most populous are big for a reason--- they have everything and plenty of financial muscle within their sphere. If you're from SE Michigan, you tend to take a shortcut and call it all Detroit, but you have everything there an IT would need regardless in terms of entertainment options, pro sports, universities, shopping, dining, etc. Yes, even casinos.

 

[aemoreira1981]

Atlantic city is one of the most depressing places I've ever been - bus loads of blue haired seniors shipped down from NYC.

Right now, the main reason most people in the US are even aware of Atlantic City is Nucky Thompson.

Even that is changing these days, with some racinos opening in NYC and nearby. As for sports and "it" cities, I am going to say that over time it may, but I'm not sure that hockey is what does it. Generally, it would be baseball and football that do, at least in the states. College football and basketball programs, along with MLB, have put many smaller cities on the map. This happens organically though.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I think we have to consider these cities not as a place within the boundaries of the city proper, but metropolitan areas. The most populous are big for a reason--- they have everything and plenty of financial muscle within their sphere. If you're from SE Michigan, you tend to take a shortcut and call it all Detroit, but you have everything there an IT would need regardless in terms of entertainment options, pro sports, universities, shopping, dining, etc. Yes, even casinos.

Metro Detroit can be a fantastic place to live but it lacks the one thing that makes an "it" city more than anything else - acclaim. You can't be "it" if people rarely say a good thing about you and a common suggestion for your future is to bulldoze you and start over. Detroit is famous but for the wrong reasons today.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I think we have to consider these cities not as a place within the boundaries of the city proper, but metropolitan areas. The most populous are big for a reason--- they have everything and plenty of financial muscle within their sphere. If you're from SE Michigan, you tend to take a shortcut and call it all Detroit, but you have everything there an IT would need regardless in terms of entertainment options, pro sports, universities, shopping, dining, etc. Yes, even casinos.

Metro Detroit can be a fantastic place to live but it lacks the one thing that makes an "it" city more than anything else - acclaim. You can't be "it" if people rarely say a good thing about you and a common suggestion for your future is to bulldoze you and start over. Detroit is famous but for the wrong reasons today.

You're cheating Fugu. The sports are a distraction. And a welcome one in places like Detroit.

 

[Fugu]

Metro Detroit can be a fantastic place to live but it lacks the one thing that makes an "it" city more than anything else - acclaim. You can't be "it" if people rarely say a good thing about you and a common suggestion for your future is to bulldoze you and start over. Detroit is famous but for the wrong reasons today.

Which ITs have acclaim? NYC, of course. Montreal--for its French charm, etc. Boston due to history? List starts getting very short very quickly. NYC, Chicago and LA just because they're ultra massive?

You're cheating Fugu. The sports are a distraction. And a welcome one in places like Detroit.

No, not really. I lived in SE Michigan (Ann Arbor) for 14 years. I wasn't originally from Michigan but really loved the area while raising my family. And I have lived in every corner of the US, traveled extensively worldwide and even lived in Europe for a bit. Of course, if you limit this to the city of Detroit itself, little positive can be found to say. However, the metro area is truly MASSIVE and until the most recent downturn, had some of the most expensive zip codes in the country. I never felt I couldn't find concerts, restaurants, shopping, events, etc... anything really for entertainment of the man-made variety. (Can't create alpine mountains or California beaches, for example.)

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Which ITs have acclaim? NYC, of course. Montreal--for its French charm, etc. Boston due to history? List starts getting very short very quickly. NYC, Chicago and LA just because they're ultra massive?

Oh come on there's more to it than that. L.A. has the glamour and the glitz and the beaches and the weather, loads of people think Chicago is awesome as a place for food, nightlife, activities etc. (personally I think it's a lot more like a bigger Detroit than people admit but it gets more positive P.R. that's for sure) and then you have cities like San Francisco known for its pleasant environment and the tolerant atmosphere or Seattle which is attractive to the hipster set for the music scene and the "outdoorsy" vibe. Then you have cities which are simply thought of as "cities on the rise" economically and which thus have a certain dynamism like Atlanta or the Texas big cities for example.

Meanwhile what does Detroit get praised for? When the national or international media talks positively about it it's either some sentimental "how the city pulls together in the face of adversity" type stuff (which doesn't actually make the city look good) or some "how they cope with the terminal decline of the city". That photo series "Ruins of Detroit" made newspapers even in Europe, that's the Detroit reputation there.

And so I am not just bashing Detroit too much - I like SE Michigan a lot after all - you can say the same about a bunch of Rust Belt cities. Cleveland? Oh that place where the river was on fire, the "mistake on the lake". Buffalo? Oh yeah always snows and there's nothing there. And then you got the smaller factory towns which are too anonymous to even have a reputation.

 

[FuriousSenator]

Two things -

You can't be a "real", competitive city without sports teams, it lends personality, exposure and gravitas to cities that would otherwise have none.

But sports teams do not an "it" city make. For that, you need economy, natural beauty/aesthetics and culture.

Take Cleveland for example. Plenty of sports teams. Not an "it" city, but has way more exposure than, say, Wichita, which has no pro sports teams.

This exactly.

Having a pro sports team does a lot to ensure people think about your city on a daily basis. If your city wins a pro sports trophy, you get instant credibility you wouldn't otherwise get if you hosted the winning of say, a music award.

Really sports provide a level playing field for cities to compete with each other in a consistent and credible way (other than meaningless statistics on crime and such which can be very ambiguous).

No offence, but to most of the posters on here arguing the opposite, I wouldn't know nor give a **** about your place of residence if it wasn't for your sports team....I assume the same goes back at me from you as I come from Ottawa.

How many of you legitimately think about Ottawa except in relation to the Sens?


Let's put this in an easier perspective:

I live in London UK now and most of the Europeans I encounter ONLY know North American cities for their sports teams.

Many Europeans have never heard of Ottawa; the number of blank stares I get when I say where I'm from is absolutely incredible considering Ottawa is the capital city of a G-8 country. Most people just assume Toronto is the capital. But everyone knows St. Louis, everyone knows Green Bay, everyone knows San Diego, everyone knows Baltimore, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Denver etc... And they connect them with the teams. "St. Louis! their team won the world series right???" "Denver....do you like the Broncos?" "San Diego Chargers".

Pro sports = international exposure at a level most cities (outside the obvious ones like New York, LA, and Las Vegas) would never get WITHOUT a pro sports team.

No one globally is going to care about a city famous for their public transit.

 

[Doan Jidion*]

Sorry, I'm still going to go out on a limb and say that people were familiar with Nashville before the Tennessee Titans -- who don't even have Nashville in their name -- were established.

 

[Ryan34222]

Hoser killed it here.


~~~~~~~~~~~
At the end of the day, if you don't live in NY, LA, DC, Chicago, Montreal or Toronto, you're city does not matter, sports or not.

Really don't think you can put Toronto and Montreal in that same sentence. And I like Montreal alot. With exception of Canadian views, and maybe a few Americans, they'd look at it this way but to majority of Americans (or world for that matter) I don't think they'd see Toronto anywhere near the "it" place NY LA etc would be.

Maybe there should be scale of "it" factor.

NY LA 1

Montreal around 5
Toronto around 7

 

[Melrose Munch]

Really don't think you can put Toronto and Montreal in that same sentence. And I like Montreal alot. With exception of Canadian views, and maybe a few Americans, they'd look at it this way but to majority of Americans (or world for that matter) I don't think they'd see Toronto anywhere near the "it" place NY LA etc would be.

Maybe there should be scale of "it" factor.

NY LA 1

Montreal around 5
Toronto around 7

I was trying to be nice it is a hockey board.

 

[Doan Jidion*]

At the end of the day, if you don't live in NY, LA, DC, Chicago, Montreal or Toronto, you're city does not matter, sports or not.

I bet "Melrose Munch" lives in NY, LA, DC, Chicago, Montreal or Toronto!

And what does "matter" mean, anyway?