Do Sports Make a City an "IT" city?

[scotchex]

The reputational value of pro sports is probably greater for middle-sized, lesser known metros than the giant alpha cities. LA hasn't been hurt by not having the NFL. Everybody already knows about LA and what it offers.

A medium-sized city has a lot of other medium-sized cities it's fighting against to attract people and business. And there are often political dynamics within a state as metros battle it out to become known as the dominant city within the state.

Oklahoma City isn't that much bigger than Tulsa. But it's national reputation has grown a great deal since it got the NBA. Frankly, I bet many Americans don't even know where Tulsa is.

The underlying attractiveness of the economics, business climate, weather, demographics, industry clusters, etc are much more important to a metro than the presence or absence of pro sports, of course, but it helps on the margin.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Psychologically I think there's some relevance to it but I think that's mostly limited to the residents of the city.

I totally can see how getting a team can be a psychological boost for a city especially if it's one of those cities on the "edge" of becoming a major one in terms of population and economy (like Nashville was in the 90s), just as I can see how losing a team can be devastating for a city especially one that is insecure about its future (like Baltimore in the 80s when the Colts left).

There are probably some trickle down effects from those effects to other areas but it's probably also really easy for residents (and thus politicians) of those cities to overestimate them based on their own psychology.

 

[Melrose Munch]

In the middle of no where aka flyover country, yes.

On the coasts, no. Toronto (coast of a great lake) and LA don't have NFL teams.


But then again, the majority of people are not sports fans, so these cities have nothing to offer the masses still. And people still leave. Look at St Louis.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Actually, I'd think that the rallying aspect that Detroit's teams have on the community's psyche has been one of the few things going for that city positively over the last few years. The Wings, Tigers, and especially the Lions have been absolutely huge sources of community pride and unity for a city where that's sorely needed.

If any of those teams ever left, no doubt that it's be a huge gut check to the community.

For white people in Bloomfield Hills and Troy.

 

[scotchex]

Virginia Beach metro (Hampton Roads) has 1.7M people, but a pretty low national profile. Part of that is the same issue the Triangle and Triad face in NC, it's a large metro made up of multiple cities without an easily identifiable center.

The city leaders in the region have long tried to attract big time pro sports. MLB and NBA flirt with them every other year.

Virginia Beach/Hampton Roads isn't well-known nationally. It's main claim to fame is the Navy port in Norfolk with the aircraft carriers.

If Virginia Beach actually got big time pro sports that would make it better known nationally. Which would, on the margin, help it compete with other metros in the southeast for people and businesses.

The industrial midwest has tons of pro teams. Most arrived back when the industrial midwest was booming. And part of that was all the cities in that region competing with each other.

As the south and southeast has boomed the past 20-30 years, more medium-sized cities like Raleigh, Charlotte, Nashville, Memphis, Jacksonville, Orlando, etc have gotten pro sports. Cities like Richmond, Virginia Beach, Birmingham, and Louisville are jealous of that attention pro sports gives their competitors.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Virginia Beach metro (Hampton Roads) has 1.7M people, but a pretty low national profile. Part of that is the same issue the Triangle and Triad face in NC, it's a large metro made up of multiple cities without an easily identifiable center.

The city leaders in the region have long tried to attract big time pro sports. MLB and NBA flirt with them every other year.

Virginia Beach/Hampton Roads isn't well-known nationally. It's main claim to fame is the Navy port in Norfolk with the aircraft carriers.

If Virginia Beach actually got big time pro sports that would make it better known nationally. Which would, on the margin, help it compete with other metros in the southeast for people and businesses.

The industrial midwest has tons of pro teams. Most arrived back when the industrial midwest was booming. And part of that was all the cities in that region competing with each other.

As the south and southeast has boomed the past 20-30 years, more medium-sized cities like Raleigh, Charlotte, Nashville, Memphis, Jacksonville, Orlando, etc have gotten pro sports. Cities like Richmond, Virginia Beach, Birmingham, and Louisville are jealous of that attention pro sports gives their competitors.

We know why Tidewater has no teams: money. There is none in the region. It's a military area, that's transient and not a lot of corporate money. While your right, the reality sports only masks the issues of an area, I mean has it really brought together Detroit?

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Oklahoma City isn't that much bigger than Tulsa. But it's national reputation has grown a great deal since it got the NBA. Frankly, I bet many Americans don't even know where Tulsa is.

The gap isn't huge but it is substantial enough that coupled with the fact OKC is the state capital there's never really been a big doubt for a long time that OKC is the "first city" in the state.

A lot of times different factors get merged in here that complicate the picture. It's tempting to attribute a certain city being relatively anonymous and unknown in spite of city size to a lack of pro team or the "rise" of certain cities to the presence of pro teams when in reality there's far more to it economically and culturally.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I think the international exposure is much more obvious than the national.

Would any American south of Minnesota even know that Winnipeg existed if it weren't for the NHL?

I couldn't point Nashville or Columbus on a map if it weren't for the NHL.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I think the international exposure is much more obvious than the national.

Would any American south of Minnesota even know that Winnipeg existed if it weren't for the NHL?

I couldn't point Nashville or Columbus on a map if it weren't for the NHL.

This is more NFL/MLB based. Columbus is more known for the largest university in the country: Ohio State

 

[Hoser]

This same, tired old argument?

I said it before and I'll say it again:

I'm sorry but that's just laughable. Big cities with large corporate presences have sports teams because those corporate presences were already there to begin with, not the other way around. Sports teams don't create any more corporate presences other than their own. If not for the pre-existing corporate presence in any given city there would be no pro sports team.

Pro sports teams don't make cities "It cities", pro sports teams GO to "It cities". They want to be part of 'It'. They want to make money off of 'It'. The also-rans of pro sports leagues set themselves up in cities that aren't 'It'.

E.g. take Florida. Florida has one 'It' city: Miami. There are other pro sports teams in Florida, but those cities aren't 'It' by virtue of having a pro sports team. Tampa isn't an 'It' city, although I'd argue the Tampa Bay Area is closest to being 'It'. Orlando (a.k.a. Bore-lando ) isn't 'It'. Jacksonville? Don't even get me started on how far Jacksonville is from being an 'It' city...

Conversely, take Texas. Big cities: Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Austin. 'It' cities? These days they're San Antonio and Austin, despite being smaller and Austin having no big pro sports franchise at all. Austin's got SXSW, "Keep Austin Weird"; what does Houston have? The Astros and Texans? BFD.

Oh, and the Rockets. I almost forgot the Rockets.

 

[superdeluxe]

So we have discussed the economic return of sports facilities and all the economic studies say its not a good return. However I read this today with the passing of Tennessee Titans owner Bud Adams:

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcsouth/post/_/id/54847/adams-helped-nashville-become-an-it-city

Thoughts?

Yes, World Class cities have all forms of entertainment at its disposal.

 

[Melrose Munch]

This same, tired old argument?

I said it before and I'll say it again:



Pro sports teams don't make cities "It cities", pro sports teams GO to "It cities". They want to be part of 'It'. They want to make money off of 'It'. The also-rans of pro sports leagues set themselves up in cities that aren't 'It'.

E.g. take Florida. Florida has one 'It' city: Miami. There are other pro sports teams in Florida, but those cities aren't 'It' by virtue of having a pro sports team. Tampa isn't an 'It' city, although I'd argue the Tampa Bay Area is closest to being 'It'. Orlando (a.k.a. Bore-lando ) isn't 'It'. Jacksonville? Don't even get me started on how far Jacksonville is from being an 'It' city...

Conversely, take Texas. Big cities: Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Austin. 'It' cities? These days they're San Antonio and Austin, despite being smaller and Austin having no big pro sports franchise at all. Austin's got SXSW, "Keep Austin Weird"; what does Houston have? The Astros and Texans? BFD.

Oh, and the Rockets. I almost forgot the Rockets.

Hoser killed it here.


~~~~~~~~~~~
At the end of the day, if you don't live in NY, LA, DC, Chicago, Montreal or Toronto, you're city does not matter, sports or not.

 

[Shawa666]

To be fair, Charlotte is/was the economic engine of the region for most of the 20th century while Raleigh is the state capital and home to two of the better universities on the east coast. Even without professional sports, they would be well known. Charlotte is the 2nd largest financial center in the country. Plus, the largest actual city in the Triad, being Greensboro, has less than 300k in population. It's hard for people to recognize a large metro area when there isn't a large city to focus on.

On topic, I do think that pro sports does add to the prestige of a city, but isn't required. Nashville would be known as a music hub without the Titans and the Predators. Austin and Vegas and Charleston, SC are good examples of high profile cities without major sports (yes, I get the boxing example, but I'm talking about sports that have an effect on things like city infrastructure).

One could argue that, at least in the Austin, NCAA teams can be considered equivalent to a major pro team

 

[jigglysquishy]

This is more NFL/MLB based. Columbus is more known for the largest university in the country: Ohio State

The vast majority of Canadians wouldn't care about Ohio State. Why would it be relevant to me? Or about the thousands of Canadians who only follow the NHL?

The Blue Jackets have done more to boost Columbus awareness than any other entity amongst hockey fan Canadians.

 

[sctvman]

Talking about cities, NFL teams often give cities big league mentalities. People often confused Charlotte with Charleston, Charleston, WV or Charlottesville, VA until they got the Panthers in 1993; they even did that when the Hornets came to town a few years before.

Jacksonville was a port and military town before the Jaguars came; now people around the world know it is a city.

 

[PCSPounder]

So has anyone here seen an episode of Portlandia?

Perhaps Portland is a "trendy" city more than an "IT" city. The music business that Seattle had 20 years ago kinda sorta ended up here. Nearly everything that happens in American sports marketing (with the likely exception of hockey) goes through Nike or adidas, which means it goes through Portland. So this market TRULY understands what's going on in the sports business.

YET... "only" the Blazers and now the Timbers. Moreover, when people discuss the Pearl District as a catalyst for growth, there was NO sports anchorage. What Portland has demonstrated is that sports is NOT necessary to be an IT city. Portland's city leaders follow Richard Florida almost to the letter, and that basically includes "no new starts" on sports facilities.

When I told you a year or so ago that I could get many of you to hate Portland, that last paragraph is the gist of the point. Other cities are deciding the same can be true of themselves. It's already becoming that much harder to get a sporting facility built with public support. Portland demonstrates how that can come to pass.

 

[aqib]

To be fair, Charlotte is/was the economic engine of the region for most of the 20th century while Raleigh is the state capital and home to two of the better universities on the east coast. Even without professional sports, they would be well known. Charlotte is the 2nd largest financial center in the country. Plus, the largest actual city in the Triad, being Greensboro, has less than 300k in population. It's hard for people to recognize a large metro area when there isn't a large city to focus on.

On topic, I do think that pro sports does add to the prestige of a city, but isn't required. Nashville would be known as a music hub without the Titans and the Predators. Austin and Vegas and Charleston, SC are good examples of high profile cities without major sports (yes, I get the boxing example, but I'm talking about sports that have an effect on things like city infrastructure).

Would Charlotte still be a financial center if San Francisco was selected as the HQ for Bank of America when B of A and Nationsbank merged? Or had Nations moved its HQ when it merged with banks in Dallas and Chicago as it grew? Not that I think the guys at Nationsbank were sitting there going "yeah we got the Panthers and Hornets lets keep the headquarters here" but it may have helped Charlotte being perceived as a big league city worthy of a major bank headquarters.

 

[aqib]

It city to who?
50% of the guys I know don't really follow sports.
75% of the woman I know don't really follow sports.

It's nice for cities to have teams, especially Hockey in Canada, Football in the states.
Much of Ohio is in a financial mess, huge cuts, with massive debt loads from stadiums, are they IT cities because of this despite them cutting education, fire and other infrastructure?

I can't speak for Cinci, but in Cleveland all three venues were built for about $550 million without the 3 teams Cleveland is basically Dayton. I know wouldn't be here without them.

 

[Edgar Halliwax]

Like in pop culture essentially. Origins being "The it girl". A model/actress/singer. Every generation has them. This "it" however isnt being applied in the same pop culture transitory sense. Its not a flavor of the month or season, year or decade. It supposedly transcends that with respect to Nashville specifically which I would argue was already an "it city" as in Country Music City USA long before the arrival of the Preds & Titans. Honestly I think the term ridiculous as virtually every single city in the US & Canada, anywhere in the world really has something unique about it and could be considered an "it" city or town based on whatever that might be. Its just a sort of sexed up hyperbolic semi-descriptive adjective. Pro sports teams would certainly serve to reinforce that label and should build on whatever "it" is thats unique about its home to begin with.

Is Glendale an "it" city?

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Is Glendale an "it" city?

No, but the city of which it is a suburb of obviously is.

 

[Le Oranje]

The only two places in the US without pro sports teams that I would consider "it" cities are Las Vegas and Atlantic City.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

The only two places in the US without pro sports teams that I would consider "it" cities are Las Vegas and Atlantic City.

Atlantic City? Interesting.

I definitely consider Vegas an "it" city, but I just consider Atlantic City depressing.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I can't speak for Cinci, but in Cleveland all three venues were built for about $550 million without the 3 teams Cleveland is basically Dayton. I know wouldn't be here without them.

It's important to remember the causality here though. It's not that Cleveland isn't Dayton because of the three teams, the three teams are in Cleveland because it isn't Dayton.

Cleveland was the 5th biggest city in America in 1920 and it didn't leave the top ten until 1980. Major pro sports came to Cleveland and stayed there because it became a major industrial and urban center of national relevance at the time when the major pro leagues came into their own.

Naturally, sports teams are now looking to go to the cities that are becoming increasingly relevant. Sports teams don't make cities relevant, they are drawn to relevant (because they draw people and money which in turn feed sports teams) cities.

 

[aqib]

It's important to remember the causality here though. It's not that Cleveland isn't Dayton because of the three teams, the three teams are in Cleveland because it isn't Dayton.

Cleveland was the 5th biggest city in America in 1920 and it didn't leave the top ten until 1980. Major pro sports came to Cleveland and stayed there because it became a major industrial and urban center of national relevance at the time when the major pro leagues came into their own.

Naturally, sports teams are now looking to go to the cities that are becoming increasingly relevant. Sports teams don't make cities relevant, they are drawn to relevant (because they draw people and money which in turn feed sports teams) cities.

True but Cleveland was on the verge of losing the Indians on several occasions in the 70s and 80s only the deal for Jacobs/Progressive Field was made in the early 90s. If they had left and the Browns never returned it would be a much different city.

 

[Killion]

Is Glendale an "it" city?

... hardly. But as McLargehuge says;

No, but the city of which it is a suburb of obviously is.

Valley of the Sun. The whole region most certainly an "it" city.... Is Pittsburgh an "it" city?... I'd say so on several levels. Steel & the arts, reinforced, buttressed with sports excellence in the Steelers & Penguins. You can go anywhere really and make a case for wherever being an "it" city based on its history with glass half full prognostications for the future. Some places though, not so much.