Divisional Semi-final - New Jersey Swamp Devils vs. Boston Bruins

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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New Jersey Swamp Devils

Coach: Joel Quenneville

Alex Delvecchio - Newsy Lalonde (C)- Helmuts Balderis
Reg Noble - Bill Cowley - Maurice Richard (A)
Bun Cook - Mickey MacKay - Ace Bailey
Tony Leswick- Guy Carbonneau - Vic Stasiuk

Duncan Keith - Earl Seibert
Babe Siebert (A) - Harry Cameron
Frank Patrick - Alex Pietrangelo

Dominik Hasek
Hap Holmes

Spares: Russell Bowie (C), Bobby Bauer (RW), Todd Bertuzzi (LW/RW), Kevin Hatcher (D)

PP1: Bill Cowley - Newsy Lalonde - Maurice Richard - Harry Cameron - Alex Delvecchio
PP2: Bun Cook - Mickey MacKay - Helmuts Balderis - Duncan Keith - Earl Seibert

PK1: Guy Carbonneau - Tony Leswick - Duncan Keith - Earl Seibert
PK2: Mickey MacKay - Ace Bailey - Babe Siebert - Alex Pietrangelo

Style: Attacking team with a defensive conscience. All 6 defensemen are capable of moving the puck up ice, secure in the knowledge that if they get caught, they have the best goalie ever at stopping odd-man rushes. This is helped by the fact that the Swamp Devils have a LH and RH shot playing together at all times - ES, SH, PP.



vs.



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Coach: Toe Blake
Captain: Ted Kennedy
Alternates: Valeri Vasiliev, František Pospíšil

Syd Howe --- Dale Hawerchuk --- Gordie Howe
Paul Kariya --- Ted Kennedy (C) --- Alex Maltsev
George Hay --- Vladimir Petrov --- Odie Cleghorn
John Madden --- David Backes --- Eddie Oatman

Valeri Vasiliev (A) --- Pierre Pilote
Cyclone Taylor --- Sylvio Mantha
František Pospíšil (A)--- Joe Hall

Roy Worters
Billy Smith

Spares: Bobby Holik (C/LW), Vitaly Davydov (D), Patrick Sharp (F), Boris Mayorov (LW)

PP1: Taylor - Pilote - Kariya - Maltsev - G.Howe
PP2: Pospíšil - Hawerchuk - S.Howe - Petrov - Hay
PK1: Vasiliev - Mantha - Kennedy - Madden
PK2: Pospíšil - Pilote - Holik - Backes
 

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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This is a rough match-up. This was actually my biggest struggle in regular season rankings. I wasn’t sure who to put first.

How does Nee Jersey plan to deal with Gordie Howe?

How does Boston plan to get to Dominik Hasek?
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I wrote almost this whole thing out days ago, then lost it before I could post it. Here goes again:

Dealing with Gordie Howe:

1. Tony Leswick
, one of the great agitators of all-time will see some extra ice time on NJ's lines to troll Gordie Howe. Is Syd Howe tough enough to take the pressure off Gordie? Otherwise, I see Leswick, at minimum, goading Gordie into some coincidental penalties, and hopefully taking him a bit off his scoring game, as well. Leswick was awarded the Retro Selke by the book Ultimate Hockey for 1948-49 and there are numerous quotes in his profile calling him one of the best defensive forwards in the league.

Leswick has some real life success against Howe:

Joe Pelletier:

The only player perhaps more dangerous to tick off (than Maurice Richard) was Gordie Howe - not only arguably the greatest player of all time, but perhaps the greatest fighter of all time too. Leswick fearlessly needled Mr. Hockey with great success. Like Richard, no one had as much success keeping Howe off of his game as Leswick did.
Ultimate Hockey:

It was in shadowing the league's best players, however, that Leswick earned his stripes... some say Adams traded for Leswick so his boy, Gordie Howe, would not have to put up with the little NY Ranger pest anymore.
Leswick isn't totally inept offensively either -

Points – 17th(1948), 17th(1950), 19th(1947)
Goals – 6th(1947), 9th(1948), 17th(1950)
Assists – 16th(1950)

Points on his team (in a 6-team era): 1st (1947), 1stT (1950), 3rd (1948), 5th (1946), 5th (1949)

Certainly nothing special by ATD standards, but he isn't going to totally kill a line's scoring ability if he sees a few shifts a night on other lines, with the express purpose of being a dick to Gordie Howe.

2. Earl Seibert and Babe Siebert are two of the few historical defensemen big and strong enough to hold their own with Gordie Howe in the slot.

Earl Seibert:

"Earl Seibert was one of the biggest players in the league and the only player the feared Eddie Shore was himself afraid to fight for sheer strength and mean streak." - Lord Stanley's Cup

"...big by the standards of any era, and if you’re inclined to take the word of some of his teammates and opponents, he may have been the toughest player of his era… from a toughness standpoint, the Seibert/Johnson twosome was most imposing in the NHL, a fact that Johnson often credited to Seibert’s reputation as a bruiser. Usually though, Seibert’s size was enough of a deterrent to ward off most aggressors" - 100 Rangers Greats

"It's lucky he was a calm boy, because if he ever got mad, he'd have killed us all." - Eddie Shore

Babe Siebert:

"Siebert was equally well known for his rushing, his sheer physical strength and his relentless backchecking" - Legends of hockey

"He was as strong as an ox, making him nearly impossible to stop." - Joe Pelletier

"Considered exceptionally strong, making it difficult to stop him in his tracks, 'Babe' also had outstanding skating skills." - Legends of Hockey

On the PK, Quenneville has the option to put together Siebert-Seibert for a physically imposing pair to keep Gordie Howe from dominating the slot.

Boston's 2nd PK seems more of a finesse unit, so Keith-Pietrangelo should be able to hold their own.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Can Cyclone Taylor play up to his full potential on the blue line?

Early in Taylor's professional career, he played coverpoint (the more or less the equivalent of a modern rushing defenseman) and he was great. HHOF-great. But probably not top 100 player of all-time great. After 1913, I believe that Taylor exclusively played either rover or center. And in the 7-man game, the rover usually played more similarly to the modern center than the actual center in the 7 man game. This was certainly the case for Taylor, who was known for leading the rush up ice and in-a-sense inventing modern playmaking.

Cyclone Taylor gets drafted where he does, based almost entirely off of 5 seasons when he led the PCHA away in scoring, usually by large margins - all of them as a rover, when rovers played similarly to modern centers. Would Taylor have been able to do this if he had stayed at coverpoint/defense?
 

Sturminator

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Anyhow, I think Boston's best bet is to bench Cleghorn and install Taylor full-time on Petrov's right wing, with a few shifts taken on defense (preserving his 17 ES minutes total). Slot in Davydov as the #6 D, with Pospisil bumped up to the 2nd pairing. Up Hay and Petrov's ES icetime (at the expense of 4th liners), and set the new 3rd line loose. A regular Hay - Petrov - Taylor line would be a game-changer, and I think Petrov and Taylor would play pretty well together stylistically.
 
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ResilientBeast

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Will drop in and make some points.

Will consider your lineup idea @Sturminator

If I recall Taylor did get put on the wing on occasion but I don't know how much I'd like to bend positions.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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I mean, you would still be putting a player who had his best seasons playing a position that is semi-equivalent to a modern playmaking center at wing.

That said, I get why Sturminator suggested putting him next to Petrov, as I can see a semi-correlation between Taylor's style and Kharlamov's (the Russians never held onto the puck like Taylor did, but that's partly a function different eras and coaching strategies).
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Can't believe nobody noticed this before. I just noticed it now: :laugh:

Spares: Bobby Holik (C/LW), Vitaly Davydov (D), Patrick Sharp (F), Boris Mayorov (LW)

PP1: Taylor - Pilote - Kariya - Maltsev - G.Howe
PP2: Pospíšil - Hawerchuk - S.Howe - Petrov - Hay
PK1: Vasiliev - Mantha - Kennedy - Madden
PK2: Pospíšil - Pilote - Holik - Backes

Not the first time I've seen someone in the ATD try to have a guy in street clothes kill penalties!

Holik very rarely killed penalties in real life (my theory is he was too slow to do so), so replacing him with someone actually in the starting lineup probably helps you anyway.
 

Dreakmur

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Can't believe nobody noticed this before. I just noticed it now: :laugh:



Not the first time I've seen someone in the ATD try to have a guy in street clothes kill penalties!

Holik very rarely killed penalties in real life (my theory is he was too slow to do so), so replacing him with someone actually in the starting lineup probably helps you anyway.

I think both Gordie Howe and George Hay would make good PKers.
 
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ResilientBeast

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I mean, you would still be putting a player who had his best seasons playing a position that is semi-equivalent to a modern playmaking center at wing.

That said, I get why Sturminator suggested putting him next to Petrov, as I can see a semi-correlation between Taylor's style and Kharlamov's (the Russians never held onto the puck like Taylor did, but that's partly a function different eras and coaching strategies).

Sorry I just didn't have the energy this weekend to give this an honest try.

So my reasoning for Taylor on defence as per my bio from this year.

- Until the formation of the PCHA Taylor was largely a cover-point on every team he played for due to his speed
- He was early on anointed the best player in hockey at this time already.
- With scoring finishes of

1907-08 - ECAHA - Ottawa Senators - 2nd in scoring as a defenceman
1908-09 - ECHA - Ottawa Senators - 3rd in scoring as a defenceman
1909-10 - NHA - Renfrew Creamery Kings - 2nd in scoring as a defenceman (Behind teammate Lester Patrick who was mostly a Rover)
1910-11 - NHA - Renfrew Creamery Kings - 2nd (?) in scoring as defenceman (I can't find who was ahead of him)

That is four seasons where he was widely considered the greatest hockey player currently playing.

Now the bulk of the quotes I've found on physical and all around play come from Taylor's time out east. While he probably doesn't lead the league in scoring from the cover-point position he seems capable of playing a more well rounded game from there.

I spent a great deal of time trying to figure out what the strategy was for the rover during the draft, best I could find are two articles, one written by Ian Fyfe and one dug up by tarheel

Courtesy of @tarheelhockey - Saskatoon Phoenix 12/10/1919
Under the old style, the rover had to do the bulk of the checking back. In baseball parlance, it was the duty of the rover to back up every play. He had to check any man who got away from his cover; in short, he had to assume the responsibility for any weak spots on the team. One thing that characterised a good rover was his ability to get goals off rebounds. Another way of putting it is that he almost had to play "inside home". He likewise had to go into the corner after stray pucks. He had to be an almost superhuman player. [lists "superhuman" rovers: Rat Westwick, Russell Bowie, Lester Patrick, Pud Glass, Newsy Lalonde, Si Griffis, Bruce Stuart]

Today under the six-man game a new school of players has sprung up. Very few of the great centre men of the seven-man game have ever starred under the present rules. Newsy Lalonde and Joe Malone are two of the few of the old game players who have maintained their "reps" under the shortened style. This is because the centre men depended too much on the rovers to do their checking back. The late Marty Walsh, one of the greatest centre ice men the game has ever known, did not last long under the new rules. The same can be said of Ernie Russell of the Wanderers.
Frank Nighbor of the Ottawa, acknowledged as the best centre man in six-man hockey did not come into any great prominence under the seven-man rules although he did star at the coast. This is for the simple reason that he had been taught to play centre in the proper way for six-man hockey by Alf. Smith. Newsy Lalonde is not a flashy or even brilliant centre ice man; it is his old goal-getting tactics that has left him so long in the ring.

The centre ice man today must bear the brunt of the work of the forward line. He must be a rugged player, a back checker and a goal getter. He has to face off the puck, watch the front of the nets the same as both the centre ice men had to do in the old game. The wing men too must share a certain amount of the work of the rover. During a face-off, one of the wing men usually stands half way between his wing and where the rover usually stood during a face-off. The defence men must also take on a part of the work of the deposed player.

So based on this text, if this is accurate for the time in the PCHA rather confusingly Taylor would be backing up MacKay which goes against conventional wisdom

Ian Fyfe's article "The Changing Role of the Rover" - I've lost the link but I saved a copy of the text to work

Some of you have probably heard of the old rover position in hockey. In the early years of the game, a hockey team played with seven men on the ice at a time, rather than the six they do now. Typically called a “fourth forward”, the rover lined up behind the center, off to one side. The National Hockey Association (the direct predecessor to the National Hockey League) did away with the seventh man in 1911—a motion which at first met with some resistance, but passed when certain owners noted they could save money on salaries with one less man to pay. Hockey's second major league at the time, the Pacific Coast Hockey Association (PCHA), kept the seventh man until 1922, when it merged with the third major league, the Western Canada Hockey League (WCHL).
Some of hockey's earliest pure scorers played the rover position. If you're not familiar with players like Russell Bowie or Fred Taylor, educate yourselves. Of course, not all of the best scorers in those days played rover, some were centers such as Frank McGee or Ernie Russell or Marty Walsh or Newsy Lalonde. Herb Jordan, a gifted scorer and likely one of the best players not in the Hall of Fame, alternated between center and rover, as did Lorne Campbell. Overall, center is more represented among the best scorers of the day. But clearly, at least in the early days of the game, the rover was an offensive position, and was counted on to score goals—perhaps not quite to the same extent as centers, but more than wings.

But an interesting thing happened over the life of the position, specifically near its end in the PCHA. I don't think this has ever been documented before, but at a certain point the rover changed from being a primarily offensive position to a primarily defensive one. And we can pinpoint that change with frightening accuracy. In the 1917-18 season, the rover was an offensive position. In 1918-19, it was a defensive one. And although we're dealing with small leagues with very few players, where an individual player can have significant effect on a league's numbers, it does not appear that this is the case here. So to any quick-witted readers who thought “wasn't that around the time Cyclone Taylor stopped playing?” —you're close, but Taylor is actually support for the idea of this clean break, rather than evidence against it.

You can see this change when you look at positional scoring figures over time. Let's look at some numbers, starting with the 1899-1900 season of the Canadian Amateur Hockey League (CAHL), which eventually became the Eastern Canada Amateur Hockey Association (ECAHA), then the Eastern Canada Hockey Association (ECHA), which led to the NHA. Since the NHA dropped the rover in the same season the PCHA came into existence, we'll then continue on with the western league until we hit the end of the rover's time. This table shows the proportion of team goals scored by each position. For simplicity, left and right wings are averaged together, as are the two defensive positions. They key data we're looking at here are the center and rover numbers.

Proportion of Team Goals Scored by Position
Year League R C W W D D
1899-00 CAHL .234 .293 .197 .197 .040 .040
1900-01 CAHL .344 .178 .204 .204 .035 .035
1901-02 CAHL .318 .265 .169 .169 .040 .040
1902-03 CAHL .272 .306 .178 .178 .033 .033
1903-04 CAHL .309 .238 .184 .184 .043 .043
1904-05 CAHL .316 .269 .158 .158 .049 .049
1905-06 ECAHA .303 .239 .178 .178 .051 .051
1906-07 ECAHA .249 .308 .173 .173 .048 .048
1907-08 ECAHA .218 .291 .169 .169 .077 .077
1908-09 ECHA .213 .360 .146 .146 .068 .068
1909-10 NHA .243 .256 .182 .182 .068 .068
1910-11 NHA .223 .276 .187 .187 .064 .064
1911-12 PCHA .245 .276 .159 .159 .080 .080
1912-13 PCHA .168 .238 .176 .176 .122 .122
1913-14 PCHA .228 .244 .180 .180 .084 .084
1914-15 PCHA .208 .264 .184 .184 .080 .080
1915-16 PCHA .202 .226 .192 .192 .094 .094
1916-17 PCHA .194 .246 .194 .194 .086 .086
1917-18 PCHA .270 .220 .190 .190 .065 .065
1918-19 PCHA .143 .291 .225 .225 .058 .058
1919-20 PCHA .110 .309 .233 .233 .055 .055
1920-21 PCHA .128 .274 .224 .224 .075 .075
1921-22 PCHA .118 .286 .219 .219 .079 .079

Although there is certainly some year-to-year variation, since individual players can have a significant impact on these numbers, from 1899-1900 to 1917-18, rovers scored basically the same number of goals as centers. Rovers scored 25.0% of team goals over that time period, as opposed to 26.3% for centers. From 1918-19 to 1921-22, the figures are 12.5% for rovers and 29.0% for centers. Although we are dealing with a small number of seasons, the effect is dramatic, and as shown below, is supported by team personnel decisions. If we look at the data for centers and rovers graphically, the change becomes quite dramatic:

It's also worth noting that in 1911-12, the NHA's average goals per game dropped from 5.21 to 4.74, which is what you'd expect if you lose an offensive position. And in 1922-23, the PCHA's goals per game increased from 2.82 to 3.44, which is what you'd expect if you lose a defensive position. It seems clear that it was a deliberate choice on the part of managers to make the rover a defensive position.

Perhaps the thing that best illustrates the idea that this was the result of a choice rather than normal turnover of player personnel is Fred Taylor (and the other rovers) of the 1917-18 season. By far the biggest scoring threat in the PCHA, Taylor was the rover for Vancouver up to and including the 1917-18 season, when he led the league with 43 points in 18 games. In 1918-19, he again led the PCHA with 36 points in 20 games. But he was now playing center; Mickey MacKay had swapped positions with him, moving from center to rover.

This effect can be seen on the other PCHA lineups as well. In 1917-18, Portland played Tommy Dunderdale at center and Alf Barbour at rover. In 1918-19 (with the team back in Victoria), Dunderdale went to rover (and saw his scoring totals drop dramatically), while Barbour was a left wing. Barbour was a good forward, but was no defensive standout. The same switch happened in Seattle, where skilled scorer Frank Foyston moved from rover to left wing, while renowned defensive forward Jack Walker, often credited with inventing the poke-check, took over the fourth forward position. The effect is persistent, and the results obvious. In 1918, the rover became a third defenseman, rather than a fourth forward.

The question then arises: why was this done? Since to my knowledge this phenomenon has never been documented before, it will likely be difficult to find an answer to that question. PCHA magnates Lester Patrick and his brother Frank were hockey visionaries in many ways. Perhaps they saw that team defense was a more important facet of the game than had been realized up to that point? Indeed, they were the first to allow limited forward passing in the game, in the neutral zone, starting in 1913. This change began to move the game away from one of individual rushes to one of team offensive play. It makes sense that defending against individual rushes takes a different approach than defending against team passing play. The offensive side of the game was changing; why wouldn't the defensive side change as well?
 

ResilientBeast

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I was trying to find a way as Sturm alluded to in the draft thread have Taylor play funky minutes at center and defence for matchup purposes. But got caught HOH list drafting Petrov and Hawerchuk neither of which can play wing. Which locked me into Taylor D "full time" that I wasn't super keen on until after I hit enter :laugh:
 

ChiTownPhilly

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Uh... I guess I'm a little late for this- but end-of-career Hawerchuk played frequently at RW for the Flyers, including playoff minutes, pace what one might read on H-R.

You could argue that it's not optimized use for Hawerchuk, but it's nothing at all like he couldn't do it.
 

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