Dion Phaneuf named Prospects Hockey Magazine CHL player of the year again

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ZombieMatt

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May 20, 2002
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Flames Draft Watcher said:
It was a prospect list. Obviously Phaneuf is a better prospect than Crawford or Ellis.

Now personally I trade Dion for Sidney and that's why I think the list is a little weird but I think you may have misunderstood the purpose of the list.


Sorry, yeah. I thought it was based on this season's performance alone.
 

pei fan

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What are you talking about? You questioned how much of an impact he was making in the WHL. He's dominating the WHL. That doesn't make your case, that BREAKS your case.
You call that dominating.It's not the same kind of dominating Sidney is doing.
 

Epsilon

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pei fan said:
You call that dominating.It's not the same kind of dominating Sidney is doing.

Exactly. I don't see how ANY list could be made for the CHL that didn't have Crosby at #1. Whether it's for best player, best prospect, or MVP, Crosby takes them all in a walk.
 

looooob

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pei fan said:
You call that dominating.It's not the same kind of dominating Sidney is doing.

how in the world do you measure domination , stastically, for physical defensive defencemen??

do you really expect a 2 way defenceman in the WHL to put up the numbers of a forward in the Q??

(to be clear I"m not saying Phaneuf is the better prospect-he clearly isn't; I'm not even saying he's the better player now..what I am saying is even if he is or was I'm not sure what 'stat' would measure that??)
 

Flames Draft Watcher

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pei fan said:
You call that dominating.It's not the same kind of dominating Sidney is doing.

Sidney is a forward. Phaneuf is a defenseman and not a purely offensive one. Obviously you are judging him based on his stats and that doesn't really work for defensemen.

For the record I have already stated in this string that I would trade Phaneuf for Crosby. But your statement about Phaneuf not dominating the WHL is extremely questionable.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Epsilon said:
Exactly. I don't see how ANY list could be made for the CHL that didn't have Crosby at #1. Whether it's for best player, best prospect, or MVP, Crosby takes them all in a walk.

You gotta admit, it's kind of tough comparing the kind of job Sydney is accomplishing to a dude like Phaneuf.

I mean, aside from comparing a goalie to a forward, this may be the toughest thing to break down.

This is why I usually try to split any list I make by forwards, Ds and keepers.

Does any one know where Prospect Hockey Magazine is located, BTW?
 

pei fan

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Look I really don't want to get into the argument in such a way like I'm sounding
like I'm diminishing Dion's accomplishments.Please note I said he was amazing at
the WJC.I'm not at all crazy on going on stats alone it's just I thought he would
have a bigger impact and more dominance.His team is in 4th place in their division.Tell me this does anyone no what there record was when Dion was missing and can you sperate that from the time fraser was missing from WJC too.Maybe
that would show how valuable he is to his team,maybe they wouldn't be that
good without him.But then again Sidney's team is not that strong minus Sidney
and he's currently leading them to a 4th place ranking in the CHL.

Look,Dion is great but how is this for dominance.Sidney has been the first star
in over 75% of the games he's played since WJC.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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pei fan said:
Look,Dion is great but how is this for dominance.Sidney has been the first star
in over 75% of the games he's played since WJC.

If I had a dollar for everytime I've watched a hockey game and seen an undeserving twat receive a star (at any level, CHL or NHL), I'd be filthy rich.

Just so you know.
 

Flames Draft Watcher

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pei fan said:
Look,Dion is great but how is this for dominance.Sidney has been the first star
in over 75% of the games he's played since WJC.

Usually forwards have a much better chance of winning a 3 star selection than a defenseman.

Not a good way to compare dominance IMO.

Your point about Red Deer's record without Phaneuf is a good one however. I'm not sure how to get those #'s easily. Anyone?

But then again one could counter with the point that it's easier for an elite forward to singlehandedly win a game than it is for a elite defenseman. Wouldn't you agree?
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Ok, I did it. There might be the odd mistake as I went game by game.

Red Deer start the season with Phaneuf. They have a record of 8 wins, 1 tie and 5 losses.

Then they play the next 8 games without Dion. They have 3 wins and 5 losses during that time.

Then Dion comes back. 4 wins, 2 ties and 2 losses.

Then Dion leaves for the WJCs: 3 wins, 1 tie and 5 losses.

Then Dion playes the rest of the season: 14 wins and 11 losses. (including a very recent three game losing streak).

With Dion, Red Deer is: 26 wins, 3 ties and 18 losses
Without Dion, Red Deer is: 6 wins, 1 tie and 10 losses
 

looooob

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Ok, I did it. There might be the odd mistake as I went game by game.

Red Deer start the season with Phaneuf. They have a record of 8 wins, 1 tie and 5 losses.

Then they play the next 8 games without Dion. They have 3 wins and 5 losses during that time.

Then Dion comes back. 4 wins, 2 ties and 2 losses.

Then Dion leaves for the WJCs: 3 wins, 1 tie and 5 losses.

Then Dion playes the rest of the season: 14 wins and 11 losses. (including a very recent three game losing streak).

With Dion, Red Deer is: 26 wins, 3 ties and 18 losses
Without Dion, Red Deer is: 6 wins, 1 tie and 10 losses

so while a small sample size, he clearly makes a difference. of course I guess Fraser (and Sutter) were missing at least for the WJC component
 

Flames Draft Watcher

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looooob said:
so while a small sample size, he clearly makes a difference. of course I guess Fraser (and Sutter) were missing at least for the WJC component

And Kuuka (Finnish defensmen) and Roman Wick (Swiss forward). Although one could argue that some of the teams they played during that time period were similarly undermanned. The Hitmen for example were missing Getzlaf and Ladd and the two teams played during boxing week.
 

pei fan

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Of the time he was out for wjc 2 of those losses were overtime losses.So actually
there record was worse when just Dion was out.

So for me that explains some things- he's playing on an otherwise weak team.
 

Anksun

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But i'm sure those who look at the Q more (i dont look at it a lot) would agree that without Crosby, Rimouski is probably not even in a playoffs position right now... But they are 1st in the league.

Last year they were destroyed about all the games Sidney was out of town and this year they played only 3 games in the WJC frame time, so extra-teams can have Sidney at home and also Rimouski can have him play more games ;) )
________

Really I like Dion, he's good. But Sidney Crosby is right now in another world. I dont know futur, i dont know how good Crosby will be in the nhl, either for Dion but i know Crosby is above any other chl players by quite a good margin right now.
 

looooob

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Flames Draft Watcher said:
And Kuuka (Finnish defensmen) and Roman Wick (Swiss forward). Although one could argue that some of the teams they played during that time period were similarly undermanned. The Hitmen for example were missing Getzlaf and Ladd and the two teams played during boxing week.

that's a good point actually. pretty obvious now that I think about it
 

pei fan

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Vlad The Impaler said:
If I had a dollar for everytime I've watched a hockey game and seen an undeserving twat receive a star (at any level, CHL or NHL), I'd be filthy rich.

Just so you know.
For the games he got a 1st star he probably averaged over 4 pts a game.Do you
think he probably wasn't worthy.
 

gb701

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What is being missed in all of this meaningless babble about stats and game stars and impact on their teams is the question of where they rank, right now, as prospects.

All due respect to dominating as a scorer in the Q this year, I pick Phaneuf. Not because I think his performance this year is better than Crosby. But because I am actually pretty much convinced that his performance 5 years from now will be better than Crosby. I suspect that, or something like it, is partly what the panel the magazine used as their criteria for voting or whatever they did that resulted in the magazine reporting a "clear" decision.

Sue me, or flame me, but I just see more potential in Phaneuf long term than I do in Crosby. I think there is considerably more likelihood of Crosby failing to meet expectations down the road than Dion.

I also happen to think that through the season, and particularly at the WJC, one of these two looked like a man playing among boys - and it wasn't Crosby.

But, since this is all just opinion and prediction anyway, who really cares? We will find out who is right sometime in the future.
 

HuskyFlames

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how old is dion? 19 I think....Sidney is 17! I wonder how Sidney would at 19 playing against jr's...man among boy's? I think so.

Dion has been playing stellar since being drafted at 17/18.
 

ZombieMatt

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May 20, 2002
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First of all, in a ranking of all drafted prospects who are yet to play an NHL game, I have Dion Phaneuf ranked number two. Just to set some sort of background of my own approach.

So this is no disrespect to Dion Phaneuf, who is an absolutely incredible hockey prospect. But he is not in the same category of Sidney Crosby at this stage. I'm sorry, but I have to seriously call into question anybody who says they would rather have Phaneuf. I'm not certain what justification there is, if it is preferably viewing FLames prospects, WHL loving, Q bashing, Crosby bashing, or maybe just misunderstanding....but as outstanding as Phaneuf is, he simply does not have the same potential to evolve the game the way Sidney Crosby does.

I think anybody who fantasizes that a single NHL GM would rather have Dion Phaneuf over Sidney Crosby is delusional. There is a gap in their potential. Phaneuf is a great prospect, Crosby, at this point, is a generational talent.

You cannot compare how they are playing this season because of the two year age difference. Not that it really matters, but even at this point, I suspect that a majority would agree 17 year old Crosby was MORE dominant (both were dominant respectively) than 19 year old Phaneuf.

But compare the two players at 17 if you want to make a fair comparison. Or 16. Was Phaneuf the WHL player of the year when he was 17? Was he a strong candidate for CHL player of the year? Did he LEAD his team to a division, possibly league, title?

I'm not trying to put DOWN Dion Phaneuf. I have nothing but the utmost respect and appreciation for what he does. He's incredible. Like I said in my comments in the Ovechkin/Crosby/who has more Gretzky like tendancies threat, just because somebody compares to another differently does not mean they are bad.

Dion Phaneuf is incredible. Sidney Crosby is more incredible.
 

gb701

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Matt MacInnis said:
First of all, in a ranking of all drafted prospects who are yet to play an NHL game, I have Dion Phaneuf ranked number two. Just to set some sort of background of my own approach.

So this is no disrespect to Dion Phaneuf, who is an absolutely incredible hockey prospect. But he is not in the same category of Sidney Crosby at this stage. I'm sorry, but I have to seriously call into question anybody who says they would rather have Phaneuf. I'm not certain what justification there is, if it is preferably viewing FLames prospects, WHL loving, Q bashing, Crosby bashing, or maybe just misunderstanding....but as outstanding as Phaneuf is, he simply does not have the same potential to evolve the game the way Sidney Crosby does.

I think anybody who fantasizes that a single NHL GM would rather have Dion Phaneuf over Sidney Crosby is delusional. There is a gap in their potential. Phaneuf is a great prospect, Crosby, at this point, is a generational talent.

You cannot compare how they are playing this season because of the two year age difference. Not that it really matters, but even at this point, I suspect that a majority would agree 17 year old Crosby was MORE dominant (both were dominant respectively) than 19 year old Phaneuf.

But compare the two players at 17 if you want to make a fair comparison. Or 16. Was Phaneuf the WHL player of the year when he was 17? Was he a strong candidate for CHL player of the year? Did he LEAD his team to a division, possibly league, title?

I'm not trying to put DOWN Dion Phaneuf. I have nothing but the utmost respect and appreciation for what he does. He's incredible. Like I said in my comments in the Ovechkin/Crosby/who has more Gretzky like tendancies threat, just because somebody compares to another differently does not mean they are bad.

Dion Phaneuf is incredible. Sidney Crosby is more incredible.

A solid and well reasoned post.

However, imho you go too far in saying that no GM would pick Phaneuf over Crosby at this point. In his favour, Phaneuf is being recognized as having the potential to dominate defensive play if he continues to develop as he has over the past two seasons. For a lot of teams, this is as important as the current ability that Crosby has to seemingly score at will in league play.

And on the other hand, and despite all the hype, there are a number of clouds on the horizon before you can safely pick Crosby as what, the 10th "generational talent" of the last 15 years?

Like I said, we will only know which of us is right in about 5-10 years. If I am really lucky...and I truly like both these guys a lot...they will be sharing the limelight from differenst aspects of the game!
 

Phanuthier*

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Matt MacInnis said:
First of all, in a ranking of all drafted prospects who are yet to play an NHL game, I have Dion Phaneuf ranked number two. Just to set some sort of background of my own approach.

So this is no disrespect to Dion Phaneuf, who is an absolutely incredible hockey prospect. But he is not in the same category of Sidney Crosby at this stage. I'm sorry, but I have to seriously call into question anybody who says they would rather have Phaneuf. I'm not certain what justification there is, if it is preferably viewing FLames prospects, WHL loving, Q bashing, Crosby bashing, or maybe just misunderstanding....but as outstanding as Phaneuf is, he simply does not have the same potential to evolve the game the way Sidney Crosby does.

I think anybody who fantasizes that a single NHL GM would rather have Dion Phaneuf over Sidney Crosby is delusional. There is a gap in their potential. Phaneuf is a great prospect, Crosby, at this point, is a generational talent.

You cannot compare how they are playing this season because of the two year age difference. Not that it really matters, but even at this point, I suspect that a majority would agree 17 year old Crosby was MORE dominant (both were dominant respectively) than 19 year old Phaneuf.

But compare the two players at 17 if you want to make a fair comparison. Or 16. Was Phaneuf the WHL player of the year when he was 17? Was he a strong candidate for CHL player of the year? Did he LEAD his team to a division, possibly league, title?

I'm not trying to put DOWN Dion Phaneuf. I have nothing but the utmost respect and appreciation for what he does. He's incredible. Like I said in my comments in the Ovechkin/Crosby/who has more Gretzky like tendancies threat, just because somebody compares to another differently does not mean they are bad.

Dion Phaneuf is incredible. Sidney Crosby is more incredible.
I don't think you need to reiterate that you arn't putting down Phaneuf. I'm sure 99% of the people are sure that Crosby is better than Phaneuf, including all Flame fan posters on this thread.
 
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