Difference between star and good player is very thin

[alko]

Oveckin had only 2 goals in 10 games. Malkin only 1 goal in 10 games. Sean Couturier also only 1 goal.

And then you have players like Michael Frolik (7+7), Dominik Kubalík (6+6) and others that did really well.


Sure, there are stars like Kucherov, Voracek, Stone, Kane... that played like stars.

All i want to say is, that the gap between stars and only "good players" is very thin. Thats all.

Click to read more...

 

[DaJackal]

In a 10 game tournament, yes.

Within 10 NHL seasons the differences tend to show.

 

[VictorLustig]

There tends to always be a few disappointing players on teams with a lot of star players. They are not the go-to guys like they are used to.

Ovechkin however, he can't play on big ice. He shows it over and over again. That stationary style, especially on the PP, should drive every Russian fan nuts. He should never be expected to be a star player at the WC.

 

[ijuka]

It is not thin at all. Ovechkin played terribly, just like he played 3 years ago.

It's a different landscape, a short tournament with players who you aren't very familiar with, vs club play with very familiar coaching, a lot of time to practice and lineups where player synergy's well established.

 

[Albatros]

In a 10 game tournament, yes.

Within 10 NHL seasons the differences tend to show.

International tournaments add up just the same though. Combining Ovechkin's record at the World Championships and the Olympics he has 100 games, 43 goals, 32 assists, for 75 points.

 

[NyQuil]

International tournaments add up just the same though. Combining Ovechkin's record at the World Championships and the Olympics he has 100 games, 43 goals, 32 assists, for 75 points.

I’m always a bit wary of some of these stats because you can really rack up points against bottom feeders at the international level. More so than even the worst NHL team.

It’s really more about performances in elimination games.

Not to say that Ovy hasn’t, just that absolute international stats can be a bit misleading.

 

[Murky]

One of the most important skills for a superstar defenseman is to preserve energy to be able to play on a very high level for 27 minutes a game, night in night out. Useless in a tournament and in fact, it could be a hindrance for players that are used to doing just that. With six other defensemen that are equally as good, it is more important to be able to play at an extreme level for 18 minutes. I have always admired those defensemen in NHL but, it might not be the easiest thing to just switch on the jets and go balls to the wall for a couple of weeks after years of success playing super smart.

Also work ethic is a bit different in my opinion. In NHL you need to bring it every night, almost, through the grueling season and put up numbers to show your value. In a short tournament with far less games and far more detailed following to each game, you need to bring it every shift and you might not even need numbers to be considered to have been good. People will see more actual footage instead of just the stat line and, eye test is more accurate compared to regular season where it's not possible to see all the games. See - Anttila, M. - if you judge him by the stat line he had quite mediocre games in WHC 2019. If you put context to his points it gets more meaningful. But if you watched the games it is a whole different story. Still, as great as he was, I would bet a 10+20 stat line in NHL for him. It is simply not the same.

In short I think not all superstars will thrive equally well in a tournament setting.

On a different note, parity has increased greatly during the last 30+ years I have been following hockey due to more professionals playing the game outside of the NHL.

 

[traffic cone]

The difference between star players and average players is grossly overrated in hockey. This is due to the fact of the NHL and media all over the world feeding this star cult.

And the fans buy in to it and even get angry or feel somehow betrayed if someone tries to tell them that the differences are actually very small. I don't know if it's insecurity or what.

Hockey is THE team game. It's more a team sport than any other sport that comes to my mind.

Media and the fans can hype up crosbys, ovechkins and mcdavids all they want. The fact is that they have very little impact when compared to the NBA stars, best QBs in football or even the best soccer players.

 

[canswetoxic]

You have to consider that most players played 80 games prior to play-off before joining the tournament, the players mostly over-worked and torn-out exhausted. No fair to compared a single game tournament vs NHL.

 

[kthomasf]

As a few posters have noted, the line is so thin at all levels of hockey growing up, that when it reaches pro it is so thin. Even in Jr. B, A, MJ, there are plenty of 19-20 year olds who could play MJ (and play it better then the 16-17 year olds in the league). There are hundreds of players outside the NHL in various leagues, KHL, SHL, Liiga, DEL, Swiss, AHL, etc. that could easily play a third or fourth line role in the NHL and due well in their own right, or with a good situation and line. The NHL has shifted its mindset, but there are still plenty of tweeners in the AHL or overseas who are better then many NHL fourth liners. Even when we factor in stars vs. regular NHL players. Thinking of all the advance statistics like Corsi. 55% corsi over a whole season is seen as amazing. 70% is just crushing it. Well 55% is the equivalent to outshooting a team 33-27. It is easy to see why in short tournaments it definitely doesn't matter.

 

[Madifer]

Malkin and Ovechkin are "old bones" and shouldnt be playing in this competition imo.

Also it takes a very knowledgeable coach to use these two and Russia's main problem is lack of good coaches and I mean in general.

 

[Nino33]

Before this tournament Frolik had only 8 points in 19 WC games.
In 5 games in the Olympics he's scored 0 points.
In 793 NHL games, over an eleven year period, he's averaged less than half a point per game.
He was a minus player and pointless in this year's NHL playoffs.

Some good players have briefly played at a much higher/more successful level for brief periods of time for generations (especially noticeable in short important events like playoffs, the Worlds, Olympics). And stars haven't been 100% successful the same amount of time.

Nothing "new" just happened or is happening IMO

 

[Nino33]

There are hundreds of players outside the NHL in various leagues, KHL, SHL, Liiga, DEL, Swiss, AHL, etc. that could easily play a third or fourth line role in the NHL and due well in their own right, or with a good situation and line.

With 3rd/4th line forwards totaling 6, and 31 teams, there's 186 3rd/4th line NHL positions.
Your claim is every 3rd/4th liner in the NHL is easily replaceable, as are some NHL 2nd liners.
Really?

And how many did you mean by hundreds? - Obviously had to be at least 200...just 300 means you've replaced every 4th, 3rd , and 2nd liner in the NHL + some 1st liners too!

 

[noliz79]

The difference between star players and average players is grossly overrated in hockey. This is due to the fact of the NHL and media all over the world feeding this star cult.

And the fans buy in to it and even get angry or feel somehow betrayed if someone tries to tell them that the differences are actually very small. I don't know if it's insecurity or what.

Hockey is THE team game. It's more a team sport than any other sport that comes to my mind.

To win a hockey match the most important think is to win small battles and situations, which happen all the time in the game. Skill with the puck is just one aspect that is important to win those situations. However, ordinary watcher easily sees it and almost nothing else. Ok, speed too is pretty easy to spot. But in the end it doesn't matter how you win those situations. Team effort, smart play and intelligence, attitude, speed, different rhythms, winning physical battles, making team mate better, taking opponents star player strengths away / defending, mental strength (not get easily frustrated, steady performances) etc. These are skills too and other players can do it better than others. Players who are good in these are not maybe the same guys who make most points.

You can build a team with many "star players" (points and puck skill) or "team players" (little less points and puck skill) or have both to find the best balance.

If one can control the puck marginally better but opponent is stronger in other areas, it's not so easy to win. Even if you have x00 nhl points more in your team.

My point is that if a player makes just average amount of points and doesn't have the most elegant moves, it doesn't automatically mean, that he is average in other skills. If he can win small situations in the game in his role, that is the most crucial thing for the team. Style is secondary.

 

[RandV]

There tends to always be a few disappointing players on teams with a lot of star players. They are not the go-to guys like they are used to.

Ovechkin however, he can't play on big ice. He shows it over and over again. That stationary style, especially on the PP, should drive every Russian fan nuts. He should never be expected to be a star player at the WC.

With Washington he seems to score so many goals from the same spot playing with the same players I'd assume that he just doesn't get the same setup on team Russia and without the explosive skillset form his younger days it must show here.

The stationary style works so well with him for the Caps because Backstrom is so good at passing and Carlson is a big enough threat in his own right that you can't just ignore him to focus on Ovie. And he's a more recent addition but Oshie does a great job in front of the net. I'd assume team Russia has a Backstrom equivalent but are missing a Carlson and an Oshie.

 

[VictorLustig]

With Washington he seems to score so many goals from the same spot playing with the same players I'd assume that he just doesn't get the same setup on team Russia and without the explosive skillset form his younger days it must show here.

The stationary style works so well with him for the Caps because Backstrom is so good at passing and Carlson is a big enough threat in his own right that you can't just ignore him to focus on Ovie. And he's a more recent addition but Oshie does a great job in front of the net. I'd assume team Russia has a Backstrom equivalent but are missing a Carlson and an Oshie.

I think it's very difficult for him when he's always further away from the net. A pass from the other side of the ice takes a bit longer to get to him so the goalies are already in position for his one-timers. He also doesn't have the speed he used to have so he's having difficulties creating time for his wrist shot.

 

[Hanji]

Star players are in a class of their own.

However the WC always proves the difference between an average NHLer and an upper tier Euro league player is minuscule.
Most players are interchangeable; success in the NHL often is a result of opportunity more-so than talent.

 

[Outofbodyinhungary]

Star players are in a class of their own.

However the WC always proves the difference between an average NHLer and an upper tier Euro league player is minuscule.
Most players are interchangeable; success in the NHL often is a result of opportunity more-so than talent.

Not just average nhler. But even top 6 forwards. Stars like mcdavid and Crosby will always be on another level. But players such as mark stone, kuznetsov, the separation is not what anti-euro NA fans.

 

[Nino33]

Not just average nhler. But even top 6 forwards. Stars like mcdavid and Crosby will always be on another level. But players such as mark stone, kuznetsov, the separation is not what anti-euro NA fans.

Stone's an interesting pick...12 goals and 24 points in 20 career WC games, and just named 2019 tournament MVP

He's separated himself well enough to be more than point-per-game in the Worlds, and being named MVP (and playing the difficult/playoff games too as shown by his team winning a Gold and a Silver) - seems like he quite obviously has separated himself from his peers, maybe you're the one who's "anti"

 

[Outofbodyinhungary]

Stone's an interesting pick...12 goals and 24 points in 20 career WC games, and just named 2019 tournament MVP

He's separated himself well enough to be more than point-per-game in the Worlds, and being named MVP (and playing the difficult/playoff games too as shown by his team winning a Gold and a Silver) - seems like he quite obviously has separated himself from his peers, maybe you're the one who's "anti"

Does he win tho? No. Finns elite, must be something genetic

 

[Nino33]

Does he win tho? No. Finns elite, must be something genetic

Ah, you weren't expressing something to be taken even remotely serious, my mistake.

 

[bob27]

Often the difference between star and a good player is just opportunity. Like Marchand pre 2016 and post 2016.

 

[Nino33]

Often the difference between star and a good player is just opportunity. Like Marchand pre 2016 and post 2016.

So good players are often actually star players.....do you also believe often average players are actually good? And often poor players are actually average?


Given this is the international forum not the NHL forum, and given previous posts, I don't think people are talking about good NHLers becoming star NHLers but rather good players in European Leagues being as good as good/star players in NHL - apparently there's hundreds of these players in Europe and they choose to make 200-500 thousand a year instead of millions for "reasons"

 

[bert]

In a 10 game tournament, yes.

Within 10 NHL seasons the differences tend to show.

Or 30 NHL games. Some of these World Championship threads with the hyperbole on such a small sample size is getting out of control.

 

[canuck2010]

Even average NHL players are counted on to play the same way every night, the fact that they can over 8o games is why they are there instead of someone else who can only do some of the time. Eight or nine one shot games doesn't a career make.