Did Pierre Turgeon turn his back in the brawl?

[Big Phil]

In one of the new books I've read "When the lights go out" I think the name was, they talk about the 1987 WJC brawl in Piestany with Canada and Russia. A lot of guys on that team went on to be NHL players and pretty good ones too. Shanahan, Fleury, Keane, Sanipass, Turgeon, Waite, Wesley etc.. the Russians had Fedorov, Malakhov among others.

This book really rips into Turgeon though. Not to mention Steve Nemeth and Jimmy Waite. Nemeth only ever played 12 NHl games in his career and Waite was a sparingly used goalie in his NHL career. Turgeon of course has had a very good career but has a lot of negative vibes about his name. Anyways it mentions how neither one of those three guys fought in the brawl. Waite was leaning on his stick in the middle of the ice, Nemeth never threw a punch and Turgeon apparently was sitting on the bench the wholke time until Bert Templeton had to sned him out there to help his teammates.

Sanipass is one guy who basically calls Turgeon and Nemeth cowards. With some players getting pounded on the ice by two Russians it got some of the players mad when they saw them doing nothing to step in and help. Apparently after the game in the dressing room there were harsh words exchanged about the fight and about how they didnt come to the defense of their players. On the tape its hard to see Turgeon on the bench but in a part of the book one of the players goes on to say how "those guys werent part of the team after that." Its a good book. My question is was Turgeon right in doing what he did? Waite claims he didnt want to fight because he assumed the game would continue and he knew the international rules stipulated that they'd be thrown out. Nemeth claims he was triyng to be a peacekeeper and was aware of the international rules of fighting. Turgeon I'm not sure what his excuse was. He wasnt a fighter but even with his size 6'1" he wasnt small it was possible he could have helped since some Canadian guys were being double teamed.

Click to read more...

 

[Old Hickory]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ydbATVriqA

 

[reckoning]

Jimmy Waite led Canada to a gold medal the next year, and when he was singing the anthem with his teammates (some of whom were in Piestany) in the dressing room on TV all laughing and celebrating, it didn't look like any of them didn't consider him to be part of the team.

My instinct is that Turgeon and the others should've helped out their teammates, but I'm not going to condemn someone for a judgment error they made when they were 17. Sanipass should be angry at the Russians for starting the brawl and the IIHF for the disgraceful way they handled the situation.

 

[seventieslord]

Jimmy Waite led Canada to a gold medal the next year, and when he was singing the anthem with his teammates (some of whom were in Piestany) in the dressing room on TV all laughing and celebrating, it didn't look like any of them didn't consider him to be part of the team.

My instinct is that Turgeon and the others should've helped out their teammates, but I'm not going to condemn someone for a judgment error they made when they were 17. Sanipass should be angry at the Russians for starting the brawl and the IIHF for the disgraceful way they handled the situation.

True that. As easy as it is for all of us to say Turgeon is a weasel, let's cut him a break on this one considering he was just 17.

 

[raleh]

Let me play devil's advocate here for a minute. At the same age in the same position, would Gretzky have joined the brawl? Would we be having this discussion? Or do we all just have some sick fascination with tearing a strip off of Pierre Turgeon?

 

[Sens Rule]

Let me play devil's advocate here for a minute. At the same age in the same position, would Gretzky have joined the brawl? Would we be having this discussion? Or do we all just have some sick fascination with tearing a strip off of Pierre Turgeon?

Hard to say. Would Gretzky have actually joined the brawl? I'd say likely if everyone else did but one guy. I doubt Gretzky would be the lone guy sitting on the bench. But it never happened so we don't know.

Neither Turgeon or Gretzky were physical players at all. But Gretzky had a ton more desire, intensity, and the knack and wisdom to know what to do on the ice. And in this circumstance it was to go onto the ice and stand near the Russian guy least likely to punch his face in.

 

[illogic]

Hard to say. Would Gretzky have actually joined the brawl? I'd say likely if everyone else did but one guy. I doubt Gretzky would be the lone guy sitting on the bench. But it never happened so we don't know.

Neither Turgeon or Gretzky were physical players at all. But Gretzky had a ton more desire, intensity, and the knack and wisdom to know what to do on the ice. And in this circumstance it was to go onto the ice and stand near the Russian guy least likely to punch his face in.

Pure speculation, but I agree. Gretz would probably grab one of the smaller, less-intense Russian guys and wrestle with him for a bit.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Is this book only about The Punch-Up, or is it about other hockey brawls? I would definitely be interested to read a book about the Punch-Up.

Whether people want to admit it or not, this is one of the most important moments in Canadian hockey history, and maybe the most important in Canadian junior history. As hard as it may be to believe, the WJC wasn't always Canada's annual international hockey darling. While there were moments at the WJC that earned our attention (Gretzky's performance at his WJC debut in 1978, Canada's victory in 82 in the debut of the Program of Excellence, the outstanding hockey at the 1986 WJC in Hamilton), this was the event that really catapulted the WJC into the national spotlight. The Punch-Up and the 1995 WJC (in Red Deer during the lockout) are the two big moments for the tournament that elevated its popularity in Canada. After the Punch-Up, people paid attention the following year who normally wouldn't have paid attention. Canada won gold.

And, whether people want to admit it or not, TSN has played a major role in the growth of the WJC's Canadian popularity.

 

[vancityluongo]

Pure speculation, but I agree. Gretz would probably grab one of the smaller, less-intense Russian guys and wrestle with him for a bit.

Probably. I'd actually love to see him in a fight with someone similar in size to him.

 

[jamiebez]

Is this book only about The Punch-Up, or is it about other hockey brawls? I would definitely be interested to read a book about the Punch-Up.

It is only about Piestany. He goes into the tournament and final game in great length, talking to virtually everyone involved on both sides. Extremely thoroughly researched.

I read it a few months ago as well. It was a good book, not great, IMO. I was a little disappointed, since I'm a fan of Gare Joyce's work in general.

What I did like about it is that he presents it as the unraveling of a mystery that everyone has tried to forget - namely who was to blame for starting the fight (I won't spoil it for you ). He talks quite a bit at the beginning about how the '87 team has been essentially written out of history by the IIHF, and swept under the rug by Hockey Canada. He even reveals how difficult it was just to get a tape of the game, as no official broadcast source could help him.

Worth a read, still.

 

[LapierreSports]

Big Phil, to me thats not a big a deal at all...wow a guy didnt want to fight, good for him for being intelligent. Now, if his teammates were in trouble like you said they were, then thats another story, but its hard to comment on something you cant see on the clips.

 

[johnny canuckistan]

I have also read "When The Lights Went Out", and I thought it was excellent. But as a previous poster pointed out, although Gare Joyce did his best to present every side of the story as to why Turgeon stayed on the bench, all we really have to go on is the verbal commentary of Sanipass et al.

The book certainly made me feel that Turgeon crapped himself and stayed on the bench. However, I don't think his side of the story has ever been told so I think we have to reserve judgment.

To me, Nemeth came out as a sort of hero because he tried to stop the brawl, and his teammates ostracized him for that.

Final thought: hard to judge a bunch of 17, 18 and 19 year olds for something that happened far from home in a dingy rink with the lights turned out.

 

[Big Phil]

Big Phil, to me thats not a big a deal at all...wow a guy didnt want to fight, good for him for being intelligent. Now, if his teammates were in trouble like you said they were, then thats another story, but its hard to comment on something you cant see on the clips.

No it isnt so much not fighting but at times you can see during the brawl that a Canadian is getting double teamed and even if Turgeon just grabs someone from behind it would help. Its true we havent hears Turgeon's side of the story but I'm guessing that Gare Joyce would have covered every avenue and would have contacted Turgeon first trying to get his side. The book is very thorough so I have a hard time believing that Turgeon wasnt asked huis opinion.

There's nothing wrong with a guy who doesnt fight, I mean Bossy, Gainey or Dryden may have done the same thing, but I'm just going by what the book said. Like almost everyone else in the world I wasnt there.

 

[Boris Le Tigre]

i've never read this book, but i can comment since i know the situation, and the players well

sanipass was a much different player than turgeon, not a fighter, but a tough guy, who played physical... turgeon (we all know what he was/is)... if nothing else it's important to remember the game wasn't over, and you couldn't know that the refs would call the game off until they did.

lossing sanipass and players of his ilk wouldn't have been as damaging as loosing trugeon had the game continued... we should consider that pierre knows that and by staying back maybe was doing a service to his team in a different way...

but still you shouldn't sit on the bench when two guys are beating one of your mates, no matter who you are, it's a hockey fight you'll be all right, get in there and help your team.

 

[God Bless Canada]

No it isnt so much not fighting but at times you can see during the brawl that a Canadian is getting double teamed and even if Turgeon just grabs someone from behind it would help. Its true we havent hears Turgeon's side of the story but I'm guessing that Gare Joyce would have covered every avenue and would have contacted Turgeon first trying to get his side. The book is very thorough so I have a hard time believing that Turgeon wasnt asked huis opinion.

There's nothing wrong with a guy who doesnt fight, I mean Bossy, Gainey or Dryden may have done the same thing, but I'm just going by what the book said. Like almost everyone else in the world I wasnt there.

This is the first I've ever heard of Turgeon staying on the bench (which might surprise some of you, considering how much interest I have in the Punch-Up from a historical perspective). I think he absolutely should have been out there. If he looks and sees a teammate getting double-teamed, because he's on the bench, then that makes him a bad teammate in that instance. I'm not expecting him to skate out there and drop a Soviet, but I am expecting to help his guys out. Just wrestle a Soviet player to the ground. There's absolutely no excuse for letting your teammate get double-teamed.

Scouts and hockey people definitely look negatively at things like that, no matter how small they seem. You wonder how much of a beating his stock took from something like that. Buffalo was going to select Turgeon No. 1 no matter what, they viewed him as the heir to Gilbert Perreault. But you wonder if other teams would have passed on him.

 

[albathegreat*]

All I can say is for every 5 guys that would drive a mile to have a brawl there is many more who would drive 10 miles to get out of a brawl.

That said if he did sit on the bench thats a coward thing to do especially if all the Russians are on the ice.

 

[Big Phil]

Scouts and hockey people definitely look negatively at things like that, no matter how small they seem. You wonder how much of a beating his stock took from something like that. Buffalo was going to select Turgeon No. 1 no matter what, they viewed him as the heir to Gilbert Perreault. But you wonder if other teams would have passed on him.

If Buffalo could have gone back in time I'll make a strong bet that they would have picked Shanahan at #1 and let the Devils take Turgeon at #2.

 

[Forever27]

Hard to say. Would Gretzky have actually joined the brawl? I'd say likely if everyone else did but one guy. I doubt Gretzky would be the lone guy sitting on the bench. But it never happened so we don't know.

Neither Turgeon or Gretzky were physical players at all. But Gretzky had a ton more desire, intensity, and the knack and wisdom to know what to do on the ice. And in this circumstance it was to go onto the ice and stand near the Russian guy least likely to punch his face in.

Gretzky definitely would have joined the brawl, and gotten one punched.

 

[Sens Rule]

Gretzky definitely would have joined the brawl, and gotten one punched.

Nice. When did that happen?

 

[seventieslord]

If Buffalo could have gone back in time I'll make a strong bet that they would have picked Shanahan at #1 and let the Devils take Turgeon at #2.

You think????

 

[Pbure]

Waite claims he didnt want to fight because he assumed the game would continue and he knew the international rules stipulated that they'd be thrown out.

This is not a correct argument, as the rules put a limit on the number of game misconducts given at a specific time. Basically, no more than 5 players per team can be given game misconducts at the same time.

 

[Forever27]

Nice. When did that happen?

I actually have no idea, I just thought it was funny...

 

[MtlBoxFan]

No it isnt so much not fighting but at times you can see during the brawl that a Canadian is getting double teamed and even if Turgeon just grabs someone from behind it would help. Its true we havent hears Turgeon's side of the story but I'm guessing that Gare Joyce would have covered every avenue and would have contacted Turgeon first trying to get his side. The book is very thorough so I have a hard time believing that Turgeon wasnt asked huis opinion.

There's nothing wrong with a guy who doesnt fight, I mean Bossy, Gainey or Dryden may have done the same thing, but I'm just going by what the book said. Like almost everyone else in the world I wasnt there.

Gainey fought when he needed to and he could hit.

 

[VanIslander]

I've heard Turgeon described as a "gutless wonder" more than once or twice during his career.

He repeatedly failed the eye test for "competitor".

 

[Big Phil]

Gainey fought when he needed to and he could hit.

Yeah, 21 fights in his career. He wasn't a wimp. Turgeon fought twice in his career. Once in 1990 to Dean Evason, the other in 2001 to Tony Hrkac. Both deemed as losses on dropyourgloves.com.

I've heard Turgeon described as a "gutless wonder" more than once or twice during his career.

He repeatedly failed the eye test for "competitor".

It might be part of the reason he was never asked on Team Canada. Can he hit that higher competitive level? We didn't see it in the NHL when needed be. I know a lot of great Canadian centers didn't get asked, but with Turgeon I can at least see a reason.