Did Keenen blow the Panthers shot at Ovechkin

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Vlad The Impaler

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PecaFan said:
I just don't see where this "future superstar" stuff for Bouwmeester comes from. He's not physically dominating, he's not a huge scorer.

It's true that he is not physically dominating. Few 20 years old are. He's probably never going to be a threatening blueliner but hopefully he improves in that aspect.

I think his scoring was good enough considering his age/experience and the very weak Panthers cast he was with. I think he is very talented offensively. There was a time late in the season where he was starting to use his mobility to great advantage and he has great vision in the O zone. He was beginning to be a bit more creative and take chances. I think we've seen the tip of the iceberg.

Take a look at what he can do on a stronger Canadian squad:

http://www.iihf.com//hockey/x/0203/0203/scripts/playerstat/pg000021.htm

He ends up among the scoring leaders of the tournament and best D for Canada.

PecaFan said:
He's not going to be a MacInnis, Pronger, or Scott Stevens.

He's going to be Jay Bouwmeester. Has different tools than those three. Reminds me more of Lidstrom if I have to choose a name, though.

PecaFan said:
He's very good, may one day be excellent, but he's not going to be at that "superstar" level.

Well, two of those guys came from another era, so it is tough to compare. Who IS going to be at that "superstar level", though?

Of all the young Ds in the league, he is the best bet for me to reach a susperstar level. Great size/mobility combo. One of the best in the league. Extremely coachable, underrated passer, great hockey sense, disciplined and poised beyond his year. You can't expect much more out of a defenseman this age.

It's well known around the NHL that defensemen take longer. He's the best in a long time and I personally think that he lacks certain quality Pronger has but makes up for it with other aspects where he is superior. He's really the best in a long time.

If you expected him to wow you with his experience, age and teammates, you may have been expecting too much. He's already a guy who often gets selected in international competition and does very well in them. Taking into account we are talking about Canada, where we breed a great amount of Ds, and his age, that is something.

Contrary to other young Ds, he hasn't been too awestruck by anything thrown at him so far. That's more than I can say of Klesla, Pitkanen and even Pronger.

He's never going to lose his cool. He may not be a fan-pleaser like Derek Morris, Barret Jackman and others were at a young age but he is going to be superior to all those guys by a long margin when all is said and done. Perhaps, like Lidstrom, his recognition will came late but rock solid two-way play is the best thing you can get from a D and that's what he will provide.

PecaFan said:
Is Wade Redden a superstar stud D-man?

Some might say yes, others might say he is on his way. I'm not really a huge fan of Redden, although I think he is very good. I don't know if I would consider him a superstar. Probbly not but I don't really care about the label anyway.

But I am convinced Bouwmeester is more talented or equal to Redden in *every* aspects of the game. He's already close to a Redden level, it's just a matter of experience now.

I think it was an interesting name to bring up because it's true Redden and him have many stylistic similarities. But Jay can be better than that fairly soon, IMO.
 

pucks1

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Roberto Luongo said:
I would not do that deal with a gun pointing at my head. At 7th the Panthers can pick one of Tukonen/Ladd/Schremp and who said they wont turn out to be better than Ovechkin in the future? And adding Bouwmeester an franchise d-men as well is an ripoff! I would not even deal Bouwmeester alone for Ovechkin.
Smart man!
 

FlyersFan10*

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You know something, I don't understand all this hype about Ovechkin? I've heard all the Ovechkin being the next Lemieux, Messier, etc....but I don't think he'll even be the next Brian Lawton. Ok, maybe I'm being a little harsh, but I don't think that Ovechkin is going to be the player people are making him out to be. I'd say his potential will be a Modano like player. I'm not saying that Modano is a bad player because I like Modano. However, I don't think that Ovechkin is going to be this superstar franchise player that will carry a team on his back and win everything on his own. I've read the comparisons between Ovechkin and Kovalchuk and to be totally honest, they were laughable at best. Kovalchuk is a proven commodity who really matured this year and is becoming a complete player. On top of that, Kovalchuk has offensive skills that cannot be taught. I don't know, maybe I'm so sick of reading and hearing about Ovechkin that I personally want to see him fail so that it will shut up all the hype about him. Oh, and don't get me started on Cindy Crosby either.......
 

pucks1

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FlyersFan10 said:
You know something, I don't understand all this hype about Ovechkin? I've heard all the Ovechkin being the next Lemieux, Messier, etc....but I don't think he'll even be the next Brian Lawton. Ok, maybe I'm being a little harsh, but I don't think that Ovechkin is going to be the player people are making him out to be. I'd say his potential will be a Modano like player. I'm not saying that Modano is a bad player because I like Modano. However, I don't think that Ovechkin is going to be this superstar franchise player that will carry a team on his back and win everything on his own. I've read the comparisons between Ovechkin and Kovalchuk and to be totally honest, they were laughable at best. Kovalchuk is a proven commodity who really matured this year and is becoming a complete player. On top of that, Kovalchuk has offensive skills that cannot be taught. I don't know, maybe I'm so sick of reading and hearing about Ovechkin that I personally want to see him fail so that it will shut up all the hype about him. Oh, and don't get me started on Cindy Crosby either.......
lol :handclap: i hear ya man.
 

Rattrick

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Yeah, you're giving 40 shots a night... and losing badly too. You need to have some blueline at some point. Jay Bouwmeester looks like one of the best defensemen drafted in quite some time. And defensemen are more of a crapshoot than forwards when you draft them.

There are good star forwards at the top of many drafts, and it looks like the Panthers have a lot of that. It's the young stud Ds that are hard to find. Bouwmeester may become one of the best defensemen in the league.

On top of having immense talent, he is a really low-maintenance, humble young man. It's a very good asset for a franchise player to have. He's going to log 30 minutes a night and if he fulfills his potential, be more important than any forward in the game period.

I'm relatively satisfied with his development. It hasn't been *ideal* but it's been good enough so far considering he is a defenseman. If his development had been amazing, I would say "no question" to this deal but as you can see, I am still a bit tentative.

I am not convinced it is the right decision. Not 100%. But I think the odds would be largely in my favor and that is why I would not do this deal.

I agree with you, a forward like Ovechkin might be more marketable. By their nature, it seems forwards are the most, with goaltenders also raising some attention in the right markets.

The 7th overall can be used in a number of ways. There will be good players available at all positions. Probably mainly on goaltending and forwards.

Really, Bouwmeester was a very special player in a pretty special draft. It was a weird draft because it was lackluster but on top you had a few absolutely amazing players. In most draft years, Jay would have gone first (and he was first as far as I am concerned at the time).

I find that there are amusing similarities between Jay and Ovechkin. Both were early-bloomers type and there was a long romance between hockey fans and him with all sorts of unrealistic expectations.

I find it ironic that today Jay is at the center of a rumor and much of the arguments supporting Ovechkin are remarkably similar to the kind of nonsense we kept hearing back then. But a lot of people will never learn that lesson.

Essentially, this is what this trade is about:

A rare talent who bloomed early and has been labelled a phenom

FOR

A rare talent who bloomed early and has been labelled a phenom
plus a 7th overall pick

Anyone who is firmly grounded in reality will know what to choose at this point in time. It might turn out to be a mistake but it's the right call. Bouwmeester has two years of experience under his belt and the Panthers have been in the crapper for too long. There are issues surrounding how Ovechkin will be signed and when. Bouwmeester is secured.

Jay has proven he can play in this league and like Ovechkin, he is doing admirably well in international competition. Jay has a relationship with the Panthers, Ovechkin doesn't. And excluding the fact I am really not sure Ovechkin is a better talent than Bouwmeester, it also makes sense from a need perspective. The Cats are loaded with forwards, many with great potential. Bouwmeester covers them up in another respect.

The 7th pick can be used to improve goaltending depth or add a skater with very interesting upside. Some are risky but there is something to be done here.

This game is all about icing a team. It is collective and chemistry is of the utmost importance. Constant trading is for perennial losers like Dudley and fantasy GMs. The NHL is taking place in the real world, where guys share a locker room and where GMs, coaches and players have a set time to achieve goals.

At this point in time, few GMs in Keenan's shoes would do this deal.

Vlad, that is exactly what I have been trying to say. Unfortunately, I am not as good at speaking my mind like you did in that post. Great post and I agree 100%.
 

K215215

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FlyersFan10 said:
You know something, I don't understand all this hype about Ovechkin? I've heard all the Ovechkin being the next Lemieux, Messier, etc....but I don't think he'll even be the next Brian Lawton. Ok, maybe I'm being a little harsh, but I don't think that Ovechkin is going to be the player people are making him out to be. I'd say his potential will be a Modano like player. I'm not saying that Modano is a bad player because I like Modano. However, I don't think that Ovechkin is going to be this superstar franchise player that will carry a team on his back and win everything on his own. I've read the comparisons between Ovechkin and Kovalchuk and to be totally honest, they were laughable at best. Kovalchuk is a proven commodity who really matured this year and is becoming a complete player. On top of that, Kovalchuk has offensive skills that cannot be taught. I don't know, maybe I'm so sick of reading and hearing about Ovechkin that I personally want to see him fail so that it will shut up all the hype about him. Oh, and don't get me started on Cindy Crosby either.......

Have you ever seen any of these players play?

Thought so
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Vlad The Impaler said:
I agree with you, a forward like Ovechkin might be more marketable. By their nature, it seems forwards are the most, with goaltenders also raising some attention in the right markets.

I have to quote myself here because I forgot a point I wanted to make. :blush:

Even though a star forward is a great marketing tool and might help fill the seats, it is still victories that will allow you to improve your overall attendances for a year. First, a more competitive team is likely to bring extra people as much as a star. You also have to take into account the thousands of people who will come with each extra home ice playoffs game plus whatever else you can squueze out of your performances in various rights.

Playoff fever is when people want that extra jersey or cap, additional TV rights and additional crowds. Marketable players should be considered when all things are equal but they come far behind a list of other priorities, IMO.
 

Chief

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I know times have changed since Lindros' draft year but just look at the bounty he brought back to Quebec in his trade. I don't think J-Bo and the #7 are enough. First, there is no forward in this draft who has impresed as much as Ovechkin has so you won't likely find his replacement with the #7 pick. Second, I'm not so sure J-Bo ever becomes one of the dominant defensemen in the NHL. And that's the thing. With Ovechkin, you are talking about a potentially dominant forward.

Let's put it this way. I think every NHL GM would trade J-Bo and the #7 if they could get Kovalchuk in return. Now, I appreciate that Kovalchuk has actually accomplished something in the NHL but I think there are many NHL GM's who would make the same deal if you replaced Kovalchuk with Ovechkin.

That said, I understand VLAD's argument. There isn't any one player, whether it's Ovechkin or J-Bo, that is going to make or break Florida's future - 'cept maybe Luongo :D
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Chief said:
Let's put it this way. I think every NHL GM would trade J-Bo and the #7 if they could get Kovalchuk in return.

You might be surprised. I am not going to pretend I know what they'd do but I expect it might be a 50-50 proposition.

I wouldn't be surprised if a couple wouldn't refuse to trade Jay alone for Kovalchuk. He has been pretty good and if someone is sold on him, he'll be willing to wait. The forwards, they jump right at you and they are more of a sure thing.

Personally, I think the two most valuable young assets in the league are Kovalchuk and Rick Nash but that is far from concensus. The thing with defensemen is they can really make you regret. If you trade Bouwmeester, there is a chance you repeat a mistake last made by Hartford when they traded Pronger after two seasons.

As for the Lindros comparison, there really wasn't a single asset there that was hyped up as much as Bouwmeester. Bouwmeester is the carbon copy of Ovechkin hype wise, except the hype slowed down a bit near the end. You just have to go back two years ago and it is pretty much the same. Granted, I think Ovechkin is a superior player (doesn't hurt that he is a forward either). But the difference is probably minimal.

Forsberg came out of left field for the media at the time. And having seen both players at a young age, Forsberg was really an inferior player. Just like Rick Nash, I think he is a guy who had a great development boost (took him longer than Nash, though).

With Lindros, you are talking about the best 17-18 years old player I have ever seen (since following hockey seriously) up to this date and including Ovechkin.

Plus you forget that this package killed Philly. Who wants to overpay like Philly did? They got ripped a new one. Who is going to accept that the basis of the deal should be a slanted deal that turned out to be a major mistake? I think the basis of good deals are probably examples of past transactions that turn good for BOTH parties.
 

Disco Volante

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Vlad The Impaler said:
If you trade Bouwmeester, there is a chance you repeat a mistake last made by Hartford when they traded Pronger after two seasons.

Exactly. Florida has been there in the past with the Jovanovsky trade. That was a defenseman with less potential than J-Bo, and Bure was a proven forward unlike Ovechkin. And even tho Bure did score a lot for them, I'm not convinced they'd do that trade again without taking the time to consider things.
 

Sammy*

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PecaFan said:
I just don't see where this "future superstar" stuff for Bouwmeester comes from. He's not physically dominating, he's not a huge scorer. He's not going to be a MacInnis, Pronger, or Scott Stevens.

He's very good, may one day be excellent, but he's not going to be at that "superstar" level.

Is Wade Redden a superstar stud D-man?
Who won the Norris this year?
 

Chief

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I guess I just don't have the same expectations regarding Bouwmeester that others have. I also don't think comparing Bouwmeester to Jovanovski or Pronger makes a lot of sense because they are very different defenders. Bouwmeester has to get a lot nastier to be in that company. He's never gotten close to getting the kind of PIM's Jovanovski or Pronger accumulated.

It is interesting that Keenan has a history of building his defenses around a nasty D-man (Chelios, Jovo, Pronger) and Bouwmeester isn't that kind of defenseman. That doesn't mean Bouwmeester can't also contribute on a Keenan blueline. It's just something I just thought was interesting.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Chief said:
It is interesting that Keenan has a history of building his defenses around a nasty D-man (Chelios, Jovo, Pronger) and Bouwmeester isn't that kind of defenseman. That doesn't mean Bouwmeester can't also contribute on a Keenan blueline. It's just something I just thought was interesting.

I agree with you up to a point. He does prefer for EVERY player to be fearless and involved but these are preferances he bypasses sometimes.

He seems to have ben on good terms with pavel Bure. A player who goes against common perception of what Keenan likes.

Also, take into consideration he won his single Stanley Cup with the two main Ds probably being Leetch and Zubov.

I also agree with you that putting Jay-Bo in Pronger and Jovo's company is not realistic froma style perspective. He's more into the Leetch, Redden, Lidstrom category in style. But he has a big body and I am not giving up on him adding a physical dimension. It's just never going to be natural. Some guys like Phaneuf, they are hungry and proactive physically even when very young. They will nail you and they will hurt you. Jay is not like that. I don't think he is timid. He's just not going to initiate much. But he's not shy. Lots of Ds, you can see they not only avoid giving a hit, they will make mistakes because they avoid all contact. Jay is fortunately not like that. He is a great two-way player, very reliable. Not physical enough to my liking and I think this is what hurts him the most in the eyes of some fans.
 

Barnaby

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Also, take into consideration he won his single Stanley Cup with the two main Ds probably being Leetch and Zubov.

Don't forget that he desperately wanted to trade Leetch for Chelios. He really didn't like Leetch.

He also killed Zubov, and didn't think he was tough enough.

Yes he won with these guys, but if he were GM, then theres a good chance that neither would have been on the 94' Rangers.
 

Heimy

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Excellent post Vlad, and fyi...late into this past season Jay started working on his physical game. No, he won't be mistaken for Pronger, at least not at this point, but he did time up some powerful hip-checks ala Rob Blake a couple times and they were something to behold.

Jay has a lot more tools is his toolbox, some that we haven't seen yet. But for some of us, watching a player of his caliber and character developing right before our eyes is quite satisfying.
 

capman29

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Unless florida was going to put a lindros package they neve had a shot to get Ovechkin. Per Mcphee will take more than a block buster deal to take that pick out of our hands ( washungton times story ). So he never had a chance nor does any team unless the deal was out of this world. No need to wonder where he is going because it is the caps and NO OTHER TEAM .
 

FlyersFan10*

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K215215 said:
Have you ever seen any of these players play?

Thought so

As a matter of fact, I have seen both these players play. Tell you what, there was a young phenom who came on to the hockey scene about seven or eight years ago in which people were also touting him as the next one. Had great hockey sense, could score highlight goals, was excellent at distributing the puck, all the hype that comes with Cindy Crosby. That kid's name was............Daniel Cleary. We all know how Daniel turned out. So, don't talk about me like I'm kind of schmuck. Considering that I'm in the heartbelt of Canadian Junior Hockey (Kingston is one hour from me, Ottawa is about 2, Oshawa is 2, and Toronto being 3), I've seen more than my share of junior hockey. I'll say this. I know hockey. I don't brag about it and I'll admit that it sounds rather pompous. However, most players dominate the WJC tournament around their draft time. Kovalchuk did it, Thornton did it, Phillips did it, Heatley did it, Parise did it, Fleury did it, Klesla did it, Zherdev did it, Pitkanen did it....so, the theory that the WJC doesn't make or break a player is BS. Truth of the matter is that neither Crosby nor Ovechkin did it. Did I say they were gonna be poor players? No, I said I don't believe the hype that comes with either player and I see all these crazy proposals and I think people are setting themselves up for disappointment with both of these guys. I don't apologize for not falling at the alter of Ovechkin and Crosby.
 

Brain Hemorrhage

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I think it is going to be 2-3 more years before we see Bouwmeester have a chance at equaling his potential. Defensemen usually breakout at age 24-26... particularly the pp quarterback ones. Bouwmeester isn't consistent yet and still makes many mistakes. That being said, the only reason you don't wait for Bouwmeester to develop... is as a Public Relations move... like trading for Ovechkin. However... I still don't think you do it. I mean, I usually bag on Bouwmeester a lot for all the mistakes he's making... maybe unfairly... but I ALWAYS add to that I feel in a few seasons he -should- be a star. To put it simply, Bouwmeester has shown that his "downside" at this point is pretty high enough that you should wait and see if he can develop further. {Awaits to be scalded for his backhanded compliment}
 

PecaFan

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Sammy said:
Who won the Norris this year?

Scott Niedermayer. Do you have a point you're trying to make?

Scott won in one of the weakest Norris races in recent history, as the usual suspects like MacInnis and Lidstrom were hurt or had off years. Of course, Niedermayer's not even the best defenseman on his team, and he needed Stevens to get hurt just to get the opportunity needed to win.

Is Niedermayer a "superstar"? Not in my book. This is his first nomination ever, he's been named to the First All Star Team once, and second team once in his 12 year career. In fact, for many years he was seen as a bit of a disappointment, folks were always expecting more from him.

He's an excellent defenseman, make no mistake about it. I'm not saying he's not.

Will Bouwmeester ever even be as good as Niedermayer? At this point, Niedermayer's first two seasons at the same age were superior to Bouwmeester's. Yes, Scott had a better surrounding cast, but Jay has had the worst +/- of any d-men on his team the last two years. Last year, he wasn't even close, he was essentially *double* what everyone else managed. So the "he was always up against the top line" excuse doesn't wash. Unless he was the only d-man on the ice.
 
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